A third mate is a learning position. An AB that has passed a test and … Wait for it… Got all of the assessments required signed by someone who is supposed to be weeding out the numb skulls.
Anyone who meets the AB requirements, sails the three years on vessels over 350 GT ITC gets the OICNW assessments signed off and then passes the coast guard exam deserve a chance to watch someone correct charts and check life vests while they learn how to be an officer.
[QUOTE=JW-Oceans;131742]A third mate is a learning position. An AB that has passed a test and … Wait for it… Got all of the assessments required signed by someone who is supposed to be weeding out the numb skulls.
Anyone who meets the AB requirements, sails the three years on vessels over 350 GT ITC gets the OICNW assessments signed off and then passes the coast guard exam deserve a chance to watch someone correct charts and check life vests while they learn how to be an officer.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the system should be set up so that the numb skulls are weeded out. But I don’t think we are there yet.
Where I work the third mate has to come up to speed fairly quickly. Most of them do. But some don’t. There are a few that just don’t seem to have the right mentality if that’s the right word. Just plain smarts is a lot of it. Life time habits from sailing AB might keep someone from “getting it”
BTW I have never set foot in an academy.as a student.
That’s just it though…you never know which ones are going to get it until they are there. No credits, courses, exams, ect is going to change that. This is one of the reasons a majority of cadets don’t sail long term. Same as most starry eyed OS’s with wheelhouse dreams that don’t stay.
Going to an academy is a good thing. So is coming up the hawespipe. Especially, if it includes some experience actually running small vessels. None of these training methods are a magic bullet. As stated above, third mate is primarily a training position.
If the peculiar nature of some ship’s operations preclude training a new third mate, then that ship should only hire a third mate holding a second mate’s license. There is no reason why the peculiar requirements of a few ships should hold back thousands of deserving mariners from moving up to third mate from AB or from limited tonnage vessels.
In my opinion, AB experience on a vessel just over 1600 tons, is a lot less valuable than command experience on a vessel just under 1600 tons. Tonnage is a very poor measure of the training benefit from seagoing experience.
Education is not intelligence. Not to say you can’t be intelligent and educated. “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
Both routes and systems are flawed. From an engineering standpoint, I hear variations of the following two phrases. “I don’t know how it works, but I know how to take it apart” -hawsepiper. “I don’t know how to take it apart, but I know how it works” -academy grad. I know those are generalizations, and not everyone from those two parties are like that but it’s a fact. I’m sure it’s similar on the deck. I feel that hawsepipers could benefit from more classroom theoretical training, and academy grads need more hands on.
Someone said earlier that there should be an “observation period”. Personally, I think that’s a great idea as well. You can’t expect a limited master that has a fresh 3rd mate ticket to step on to a container ship and know what’s going on. Just like you can’t expect a 3rd mate that did his year of sea time, took a test and walks onto a mud boat with his fresh limited master ticket to be able to step up and be master.
Although I certainly think the hawspipe will soon die a regulatory death I certainly don’t agree with the idea of requiring a college diploma for unlimited licenses. Maritime academies do not issue licenses the USCG does. Just like law schools don’t certify lawyers, everyone has seen “Catch me if you can”. If there is a issue with a person being competent to hold a given license and they have passed the required courses and done the required sea time then the fault is in the examination process. The hawspipe route to being a merchant mariner is one of the last free professional trades where a individual can go from nothing with little education and advance all the way to the top based solely on there own efforts. Merchant mariner credential structure has always been a product of industry influence since the days of schlepping cowhides up the coast of Ca under sail. The USCG does what congress tells it and congressman do what there constituents ask, some of the time. This is why a 6000ITC OSV is not inspected and 350’ factory trawlers with crews of 140 have the same manning requirements as a 100’ long liner. There is a example for every anecdote of how a hawspiper is a illiterate hillbilly who tests voltage with his tongue and a grimace compared to Johnny q maritime who uses a fluke. And the Hawspiper who can look at three vague indicators and tell you exactly what just failed on a system while Johnny Q Maritime is just getting thru the safety precautions in the service manual. They are all usually funny but have little or no relevance.
I know numerous hawsepipers that hold a degree, just not from a Maritime school. I think the time from AB U/L to 3rd should be longer than one year and the type of expirence gained while working as an AB somehow vetted. An AB serving as helmsman is better prepared to take a watch as a newly minted 3rd than the AB who had been running a needle gun.
Doesn’t it all boil down to how hard said mariner tries and helps out and learns and constantly improves? No one is the perfect seaman. Some are obviously better than others, that’s life.
[QUOTE=brjones;131719]I’m not going to get into an academy VS. Hawsepipe, but I can use your exact same examples and go the other way and say the same about them. When I first got out of school and " got my cookie" I sailed with some good 1st who were hawsers. Showed me a lot of tricks of the trade. I also learned a lot of shit from wipers, juniors, and electricians along the way. Lately I have seen some pretty bad hawse pipers come out. I had one 3rd who went down to roll a dg over before starting it. He started it without cutting off the fuel, so she was firing with cocks open. OK happens to best of us. This guy jumps off the DG and runs over to the panel and opens the breaker to the pre lube pump and then stares in disbelief as to why the DG did not shut down. My academy second went over and pulled the fuel rack. When asked why he opened the breaker? Idk, I thought if I killed power it would stop running. So your saying the diesel generator was being run by the electrical panel? Yes. Hmmm
Again good and bad from both sides. If your guy doesn’t know what a turbine blade looks like or the theory on generator paralleling then his academy failed him. We did all that while in school sims, on the training ship, and I even did it on a commercial ship I cadet shipped on.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that sounds like fun. I remember when I had a new assistant sign on who was not only a hawsepiper, but twice my age (or more) and had to explain to him how to parallel generators. Like many engineers I got back then, he came from the oil patch. After I was comfortable enough that he had the basics down, he looked at me and told me that they really needed to put a split bus onboard. . . . As far as who makes the better unlimited mate/engineer? I think that one thing is very important and often overlooked and that is communication skill, both verbal AND written. While I have been ashore for some time, I often have to review logs, statements and other information and am amazed at the lack of this basic skill. . . .
[QUOTE=Doodlebug;131774]Doesn’t it all boil down to how hard said mariner tries and helps out and learns and constantly improves? No one is the perfect seaman. Some are obviously better than others, that’s life.[/QUOTE]
When I started in this business the first of 1970, the only prep school I know of was Capt Van’s in Port Arthur. There was no published question pool but Van had a general Q&A book. The captains and mates I sailed with back then were better than any school. I found my old workbook during a move a few years ago. Several of us kids 16 to 18 with no HS diploma were working amplitudes before chow and azimuths during our coffee breaks. In the evening it was nav general and star identification. A few months later, I bought an old Heath sextant in Scotland. It was interesting looking back on the old mimeographed work sheets at my first noon sight, sun lines and stars. I think all but one of the other guys wound up with unlimited licenses. One captain got pissed that I opted for the E/R and “wasted” his time. 28 years later,at 81,he wasn’t impressed that I got my 100 ton.
Seems like it boils down to the nature of the test. If the test can be passed by memorizing the answers then that devalues the worth of the license for all the hawepipers including the ones who do understand the principles. Take T Nav for instance. If it requires understanding trig then the AB upgrading didn’t just spend his time running a needle gun but somehow managed learn some math. Which is impressive. If on the other hand he just memorized the answers then not so much.
The school guys on the other hand can wave a diploma around in addition to the license. We can say the that diploma doesn’t prove that someone knows anything but it sure can’t hurt.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131799]Seems like it boils down to the nature of the test. If the test can be passed by memorizing the answers then that devalues the worth of the license for all the hawepipers including the ones who do understand the principles. Take T Nav for instance. If it requires understanding trig then the AB upgrading didn’t just spend his time running a needle gun but somehow managed learn some math. Which is impressive. If on the other hand he just memorized the answers then not so much.
The school guys on the other hand can wave a diploma around in addition to the license. We can say the that diploma doesn’t prove that someone knows anything but it sure can’t hurt.[/QUOTE]
True about the tests. But it is still up to the person to do more than wave a license and or diploma.
[QUOTE=Doodlebug;131801]. But it is still up to the person to do more than wave a license and or diploma.[/QUOTE]
You mean when it’s time to get through the Pearly Gates?
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131799]Seems like it boils down to the nature of the test. If the test can be passed by memorizing the answers then that devalues the worth of the license for all the hawepipers including the ones who do understand the principles. Take T Nav for instance. If it requires understanding trig then the AB upgrading didn’t just spend his time running a needle gun but somehow managed learn some math. Which is impressive. If on the other hand he just memorized the answers then not so much.
The school guys on the other hand can wave a diploma around in addition to the license. We can say the that diploma doesn’t prove that someone knows anything but it sure can’t hurt.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. The USCG exams need to be improved to test a good understanding of relevant theory and the ability to apply it to modern real world problems. Memorizing the the answers to irrelevant 1940’s era questions has no value.
All college degrees are not created equal. Isn’t a degree in physics worth more than a degree in “I played football.” Shouldn’t a diploma from MIT be worth a lot more, than a diploma from Podunk State Maritime Academy?
We know that anyone who even gets in to MIT is super smart to begin with. Anyone who graduates from MIT has proven the ability to work his ass off to master very high level material. He’s a guy who can learn anything.
We know that just about anyone can get into Podunk Maritime. We also know that anyone who is willing to pay the tuition and drink the kool aid will eventually graduate.
"Shouldn’t a diploma from MIT be worth a lot more, than a diploma from Podunk State Maritime Academy? "
I think most know that the MIT degree is worth more, no one is saying it is worth less than the state maritime degree. No one ever said degrees from schools are equal. I would think a Yale Law degree is probabaly worth more than Podunk state tech law school somewhere.
A guy that goes to an academy can learn anything also, not all but some. Some guys may have went to went to MIT and are now bums or flops or in jail, who knows.
Yeah maybe anyone can get into the state acads, you still have to pass, paying the tuitions does not get you a free pass. Dudes fail out all the time. What is this “kool aid”?
Sorry if you have only dealt with Acad people that are “dicks”. People go to the acads to learn more about other topics along with Deck or Engine majors. I do not ever remember having the feeling while there or while shipping that I was more “brilliant” than anyone.
I agree with you on the tests, they can be improved greatly.
Is MIT a far superior degree? I’m not sure. The top 25 schools that have the best rate of return has MIT as well as 2 of the state maritime academies. Also I know schools like CMA has actually lowered the acceptance to around 50%? So it’s not as easy as it once was to get into a maritime academy
That’s supposing that ROI is in relation to the academic difficulty of the program. Which, while usually true (ie a Civil Engineer usually makes more than a photography major), isn’t always true. Some one who goes to school at a maritime school might be in an academically easier program then some one at say UC Berkley, but in the current job market between two equally intelligent graduates, the Maritime Grad will probably do much better.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131799]Seems like it boils down to the nature of the test. If the test can be passed by memorizing the answers then that devalues the worth of the license for all the hawepipers including the ones who do understand the principles. Take T Nav for instance. If it requires understanding trig then the AB upgrading didn’t just spend his time running a needle gun but somehow managed learn some math. Which is impressive. If on the other hand he just memorized the answers then not so much.
The school guys on the other hand can wave a diploma around in addition to the license. We can say the that diploma doesn’t prove that someone knows anything but it sure can’t hurt.[/QUOTE]
It devalues the license for all mariners. At the end of the day the license is our meal ticket, not such much our degree, unless office bound. I do agree higher education helps with critical thinking and problem solving, good qualities to have in a senior leadership position. I sailed with a hawespiper (1600T) who had a masters degree in geology, smart dude. So, all hawsepipers are not created equal. I have run into some that blow the doors off any Maritime grads I’ve sailed with.
well now!!, The new generation of thinking is legislating morality bit by bit, now it’s time to legislate smarts right? The system of advancement we endure under evolved over many years with the understanding there would be a genius who couldn’t turn a screw driver and a klutz who could memorize any operating manual. You can do a lot to the rules we have but i doubt you’ll improve the ratio of good/bad.
and where is the ‘‘thank you’’ option i see some of you using?