[QUOTE=Diesel;52442]You’re cherry picking things thats where your confusion is coming in. Read Policy letter 15-02, they will be issued a Third Mate Unlimited (with a tonnage restriction) . An unlimited/limited license if you will. It’s an avenue for people without experience on unlimited tonnage vessels to progress and sail on them without going back to the deck. There was confusion when ITC tonnage vessels started coming out. People were sailing on 2500 ton ITC vessels and getting unlimited sea time credit when they should have not. Capt. Schmitt is exactly right in his interpretation, but to my knowledge there is no test for 2nd Mate, you first must sail as a 3rd and then progress to 2nd with one year of sea-time.[/QUOTE]
I understand clearly…I was merely stating a situation that a mate came to me with and I tried to explain the whole tonnage limitation thing and he just looked at me dumb founded and said “it doesn’t say that in the new policy letter” hahaha…and these guys get a free pass to 3rd Mate Unlim. …and, yes, there is not a 2nd Mate Unlim. exam, it takes 360 8hr days as 3rd Mate Unlim. CHEERS!!
[QUOTE=dougpine;52424]Why? It’s called ‘institutional bias’. The CFRs and USCG policies are clearly designed to protect the ringknockers. As C_A suggested, and I agree in principle, someone should challenge the absolute unfairness of the system via the courts. Until then, us “lower level” types are screwed.[/QUOTE]
A plausible argument could also be made the other way. “Lower Level” pay lower fees. Lower level have less inclusive exams, even for stuff for which the size of the vessel doesn’t matter (e.g., navigation). Under current policy, it’s possible to go to Master 1600 without STCW training and assessment (If you go via master 200), the “upper level” mariner has to meet training and assessment at the operational level (3rd Mate/2nd Mate) and again at the management level (Chief Mate/Master). Upper level takes flashing light at every upgrade. From an “upper level” perspective, all of the stuff that has to be done to go from Master 1600 to 3rd Mate represent all that the lower level mariner didn’t have to do along the way\ that an upper level mariner had to do. One could argue that it’s the accumulated “bill” for all the concessions the lower level mariner has had as they progressed to the highest lower level license.
Which side the sytem is biased towards probably depends on what side of the fence you’re standing on.
[QUOTE=Diesel;52442]You’re cherry picking things thats where your confusion is coming in. Read Policy letter 15-02, they will be issued a Third Mate Unlimited (with a tonnage restriction) . An unlimited/limited license if you will. It’s an avenue for people without experience on unlimited tonnage vessels to progress and sail on them without going back to the deck. There was confusion when ITC tonnage vessels started coming out. People were sailing on 2500 ton ITC vessels and getting unlimited sea time credit when they should have not. Capt. Schmitt is exactly right in his interpretation, but to my knowledge there is no test for 2nd Mate, you first must sail as a 3rd and then progress to 2nd with one year of sea-time.[/QUOTE]
The policy letter is for STCW. It doesn’t change any requirements for licenses (“officer endorsements”). The reuirements for 2nd Mate are in 46 CFR 11.406 and are unchanged, you can’t get 2nd Mate without first getting 3rd Mate (unless you hold master unlimited Great lLakes and/or inland).
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52446]I’m not scrutinizing the new policy letter 11-07. This is clearly a policy letter for Mates only, just like 01-02. The problem that I have is when someone has taken a test that was labeled 3rd Mate Unlim. / Master 1600GRT Oceans, which is what was on the cover sheet of all of my exam modules for Master 1600GRT, then after I have acquired the seatime and tonnage for 3rd Mate Unlim., why do I have to retest for 3rd Mate Unlim.? It’s the same as someone taking the 3rd Mate Unlim. / 1600GRT Mate / 500GRT Mate / Mate OSV exam for 1600GRT Mate and then the NMC says that they have to retest once they acquire the seatime and tonnage for 3rd Mate Unlim. If my exam was given in error, then they should still honor it because the exam was still passed. So, yes, the exam that I took is the same “AND” exceeds that of a Mate…that is not logic…that is a fact (3rd Mate Unlim. / Master 1600GRT Oceans). Once again…I intend on retaking the 3rd Mate exam. Using logic…I “feel” that I shouldn’t have to retake the 3rd Mate Unlim. exam based on what PL 11-07 says for mates, since I have already taken the 3rd Mate exam.[/QUOTE]
I think the question you should be asking is why a test would say 1600 ton Master / 3rd Mate in the corner when there is no such thing based on current or past policy. I would try to find that out. The test that needs to be taken for 3rd Mate says “OICNW” in the corner.
[QUOTE=Diesel;52442] Capt. Schmitt is exactly right in his interpretation, but to my knowledge there is no test for 2nd Mate, you first must sail as a 3rd and then progress to 2nd with one year of sea-time.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I meant “test to go to 3M unlimited” since that is the step before going to 2M. I normally refer to that test as the 2nd Mate test and my wording in that sentence was slightly wrong for the use of 2nd Mate there. I guess I was typing quickly and combining my thoughts of “going to 3M” and “taking the 2M test”. Sorry for the confusion. (To get 500/1600/3M you need to take the test for 2M unlimited…)
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52450]I understand clearly…I was merely stating a situation that a mate came to me with and I tried to explain the whole tonnage limitation thing and he just looked at me dumb founded and said “it doesn’t say that in the new policy letter” hahaha…and these guys get a free pass to 3rd Mate Unlim. …and, yes, there is not a 2nd Mate Unlim. exam, it takes 360 8hr days as 3rd Mate Unlim. CHEERS!![/QUOTE]
Well… then he’s terribly mistaken. You can’t take one part of something without understanding the whole. I wouldn’t call it a free pass though. They still have to do the assessments. Still take at least half of the once required STCW classes (radar, brm, medical care, gmdss, arpa, Advanced FF, and celestial are still required as far as I know) and test. The classes they did away with were BS anyway. 3 days Magnetic/Gyro Compass, Terrestrial, meteorology…what a joke, you have to understand those things to pass your exam and do your job, anyway. I don’t think I should have to take a class that I am qualified to teach think you very much.
[QUOTE=Diesel;52503]Well… then he’s terribly mistaken. You can’t take one part of something without understanding the whole. I wouldn’t call it a free pass though. They still have to do the assessments. Still take at least half of the once required STCW classes (radar, brm, medical care, gmdss, arpa, Advanced FF, and celestial are still required as far as I know) and test. The classes they did away with were BS anyway. 3 days Magnetic/Gyro Compass, Terrestrial, meteorology…what a joke, you have to understand those things to pass your exam and do your job, anyway. I don’t think I should have to take a class that I am qualified to teach think you very much.[/QUOTE]
100 ton Captain weather 101, Channel 13 broadcast…“Can someone tell me what it looks like at the jetties?”
Yes the New CFR 46 11 now replaces 46 10. Along with a host of new regulations. But then comes the new policy letter which seems to wipe away the requirements of having to test if you are a mate. During this same time period the Recommendations were also to have a cross over from 1600 Master to Chief Mate Unlimited. This has not taken place yet. When I took my 1600 Master exam in 2005 I had real sea time of over 1800 days. It has now been 6 years since then and while I don’t have my updated sea time off the top of my head, one could guess the following; some where around 4000 sea days using the 12 hour rule of 1.5 days per 12 hour day. If one looks at the assessments which I have already done and submitted many of them are basic information used during the course of the day. I am not one of those Masters who was grandfathered into anything. I have gone to School at MPT to receive my training for the current license that I hold. My point is this new policy seems bias since there is not an equal policy letter for 1600 masters. Again it is not the test that bothers me it is that as Master I can sign off on a mates upgrade to 3rd but yet the USCG does not recognize that if I can sign off on this material then I must know this material. Right??? I’m not talking about pencil wiping it I’m talking about doing these assessments. So once the assessments are completed Master 1600 should move right to 3rd. But if that is not the case then Master 1600 serving as master should be able to cross to 2nd with a basic test. Tonnage put aside. That would mirror the 2nd mate to master 1600.
[QUOTE=captvisa;52508]Yes the New CFR 46 11 now replaces 46 10. Along with a host of new regulations. But then comes the new policy letter which seems to wipe away the requirements of having to test if you are a mate. During this same time period the Recommendations were also to have a cross over from 1600 Master to Chief Mate Unlimited. This has not taken place yet. When I took my 1600 Master exam in 2005 I had real sea time of over 1800 days. It has now been 6 years since then and while I don’t have my updated sea time off the top of my head, one could guess the following; some where around 4000 sea days using the 12 hour rule of 1.5 days per 12 hour day. If one looks at the assessments which I have already done and submitted many of them are basic information used during the course of the day. I am not one of those Masters who was grandfathered into anything. I have gone to School at MPT to receive my training for the current license that I hold. My point is this new policy seems bias since there is not an equal policy letter for 1600 masters. Again it is not the test that bothers me it is that as Master I can sign off on a mates upgrade to 3rd but yet the USCG does not recognize that if I can sign off on this material then I must know this material. Right??? I’m not talking about pencil wiping it I’m talking about doing these assessments. So once the assessments are completed Master 1600 should move right to 3rd. But if that is not the case then Master 1600 serving as master should be able to cross to 2nd with a basic test. Tonnage put aside. That would mirror the 2nd mate to master 1600.[/QUOTE]
All Masters had to go to the same type schools to retain their licenses as far as STCW goes. Everyone had to do the same thing, being grandfathered or not, of what you did at MPT. Remember that some of those courses possibly cover some assessments.
If you want to put tonnage aside, think of it like this. STCW doesn’t say one thing about 3rd or 2nd Mates, only OICNW. When you sign OICNW assessments, you sign for that and that only. On the tonnage side and what the mariner qualifies for is of no concern when doing assessment. Yes, he could qualify for 3rd Mate at some point, but if he doesn’t, you can easily say your signing off assessments for a 500 ton Mate, but that’s the wrong way to look at it. If you have an AB and you are assessing that person on your ship, you more than likely cannot call them 3rd mate assessments because he doesn’t have the tonnage that would make it a 3rd Mate, only a 1600 ton Mate at the very most. You sign the assessments and the experience of each mariner determines what they’re good for, not you signing off.
What makes you qualified to assess is not what license you have compared to the person being assessed, only that you are seasoned enough, and you are signing off for someone that can possibly be green and less experienced - the actual purpose of needing assessments in the first place. A 500ton Mate, 1600 ton Mate, and 3rd Mate are junior mate licenses and can be 1st issues. A 3rd Mate with 4 years of maritime college and nearly 2 years shipping cannot even sign off an AB / 500 ton Mate applicant, for turning 5 to starboard correctly.
What strikes me as ironic is now with the new policy letter saying that all you need to do is a,b,c,d and if you took this test then you are good, if not then you need to take the test. What is all the fuss about? First people were upset because they had to take all the classes. Now they are upset because they do not, and just have to test? The USCG might have been a little late to the party, but they showed up. Take the test, get the license and move on. All the complaining about not being fair is wasted breath. Academy or Hawse still took roughly the same amount of time to get to the same point. Opportunity costs along the way are the big difference. The USCG now has in my opinion made the field level. I would also make the point that no one is getting anything for free here, assessments still had to be completed, tests still had to be taken. Now the USCG has just realized that the people who took the OSV, 500 mate or 3rd were all taking the same test (oceans/nc differentiation aside) and that retaking it to continue to upgrade was not necessary. (Similiar to a double jeaopardy type situation ) There is a point to be made that the 3rd mate can get a year sea time and upgrade to 2nd / 1600 master with a limited examination, so then why not create a test for a 1600 master to cross to third without having to do all seven? Again though sitting around getting upset because they changed the rules and “its not fair” is not going to change anything and the wasted effort and rise in air temp on the bridge due all the hot air floating around just gets old. Take the test, move on, by the time they change or make any crossover if they did you could have already passed the test.
Regarding qualifications of officers and training etc, as I believe it has been said previously in this thread, skill is readily appearent to all and is not something that can be faked. Any good officer knows when their relief or watch partner, whoever it may be doesn’t have a clue.
I have to agree with you dougpine, but after all the bitching about 01-02 and all that was associated with it, one would think there would be a little more positivity floating around… Bitching should be reserved for the cooks bad meals and deckhands who don’t want to take showers or wash their clothes/sheets for a whole hitch…
So the test for Mate OSV, Mate 500ton, Mate 1600ton and 3rd/2nd Mate AGT are all the same and all only now require the seatime and assessments, correct? So would it be prudent for the guys currently going through the large OSV program to just switch to 1600 ton or better yet apply for 3rd Mate and take a tonnage restriction for awhile? As far as I can tell at the moment it seems like there is no longer a need for OSV program. Or am I missing something here. Another thing, I am upgrading my 3rd Mate and adding Oceans…will the assessor be required to hold a 2nd Mate or higher with Oceans in order to assess me?
An assessor must meet one of the following requirements:
"i. Hold an STCW endorsement at the management level (STCW Regulation II/2 - master or chief mate) valid for service on seagoing vessels of at least 200 GRT/500 GT;
"ii. Hold an STCW endorsement as OICNW and have at least one year of experience as OICNW on seagoing vessels of at least 200 GRT/500 GT;
“iii. Is serving on a seagoing military vessel of at least 200 GRT/500 GT and is either the Commanding Officer or Executive Officer or is authorized to conduct similar assessments for the U.S. Navy or U.S. Coast Guard Personnel Qualification Standard (PQS) for underway officer of the deck (OOD).”
[QUOTE=CaptKrunch;52539]So the test for Mate OSV, Mate 500ton, Mate 1600ton and 3rd/2nd Mate AGT are all the same and all only now require the seatime and assessments, correct? So would it be prudent for the guys currently going through the large OSV program to just switch to 1600 ton or better yet apply for 3rd Mate and take a tonnage restriction for awhile? As far as I can tell at the moment it seems like there is no longer a need for OSV program. Or am I missing something here. Another thing, I am upgrading my 3rd Mate and adding Oceans…will the assessor be required to hold a 2nd Mate or higher with Oceans in order to assess me?[/QUOTE]
The assessor can be a 2nd, but it can be a 1600 ton Master as well. If you are going through a 6,000 ton program, stick with it. A 3rd Mate or a 2nd Mate or a Chief Mate is a Mate and can only hold a Mate position on a OSV. There are a lot of 2nd Mate/1600 ton Masters with 6,000 ton OSV endorsements because that endorsement is needed for a Master position. Absolutely nothing has changed as far as what you need, or the career path to get there. Obviously, an unlimited master is the ultimate goal, but that will take a lot more time, money, and you cannot even get the Chief Mate time on an OSV to upgrade to Master.
Just remember guys and gals…you cannot get chief mate time on an osv…and more than likely cannot get 12hr days on whatever vessel you must get on to get that time.