Out of the thousands of questions on the exams you’re going to narrow it down to 73 questions that someone’s license hinges upon? On an actual test you might, if you’re lucky, end up with a 1 question difference.
I’m an AB to Mate program grad, all of my coursework was geared towards a 1600 Ton Mate NC License. I had no difficulty passing the 3rd Mate exam and couldn’t tell you if there was any difference between the tests, but I can tell you I didn’t study anything extra for the 3rd Mate that I hadn’t already studied for the 1600.
Clearly, these lower level Mates meet the requirements for STCW portion for 3rd Mate Unlim., but do not meet the license requirements set forth by our Code of Federal Regulations
You may want to go back and double check your interpretation of the CFR’s. While it may not be as clear as the requirements of going from 1600 Master to 3rd Mate, it is obviously possible if my first issue license was 3rd Mate NC with a tonnage restriction and 1600 Mate NC. Just to throw a monkey wrench in the process, I only have 45 days of sea service on a vessel over 10,000 GRT.
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52309]Mr. Cavo,
If the Mate OSV, Mate 500GRT, and Mate 1600GRT test became the same on 2/1/02 then they should still have to take the 3rd Mate exam because there are parts on the 3rd Mate exam that is not on the lower level Mates exam (46 CFR 11.910-2). Unless the NMC has been giving the 3rd Mate exam to the lower level Mates since 2/1/02. Further, the 3rd Mate checklist, (46 CFR 11.407) does not indicate anywhere that a Mate OSV, Mate 500GRT, or a Mate 1600GRT qualifies for the 3rd Mate Unlim. license. A 1600 GRT Master qualifies after having held and worked in that capacity license for 1 year. I believe that the assessments allow these lower level mates to not have to be assessed for the 3rd Mate license but they still have to follow the licensing scheme which would require them to achieve a 1600 GRT Master license before upgrading to 3rd Mate Unlim.[/QUOTE]
I do not know why there is the difference in that chart but I have been told that the test for 500/1600 mate oceans is the same as the one for 2nd mate unlimited oceans and the policy letter states directly that if you took the mates test after 2002 no further testing is required. That does not apply to the 1600 ton master test, which is not the same as the mate test so if you tested for 1600 ton mate before 2002 and master after you should still have to test to go to 2M unlimited. The thing about being a 1600 ton master for a year is about sea time, not testing. Your optons are either to work 1080 days on deck of a ship as a deckhand or to be a master of a vessel over 200 tons while holding a 1600 ton master license. That has nothing to do with the assessments or the test taken.
[QUOTE=Cal;52311]Out of the thousands of questions on the exams you’re going to narrow it down to 73 questions that someone’s license hinges upon? On an actual test you might, if you’re lucky, end up with a 1 question difference.
I’m an AB to Mate program grad, all of my coursework was geared towards a 1600 Ton Mate NC License. I had no difficulty passing the 3rd Mate exam and couldn’t tell you if there was any difference between the tests, but I can tell you I didn’t study anything extra for the 3rd Mate that I hadn’t already studied for the 1600.
You may want to go back and double check your interpretation of the CFR’s. While it may not be as clear as the requirements of going from 1600 Master to 3rd Mate, it is obviously possible if my first issue license was 3rd Mate NC with a tonnage restriction and 1600 Mate NC. Just to throw a monkey wrench in the process, I only have 45 days of sea service on a vessel over 10,000 GRT.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected…a lower level mate can obtain a 3rd Mate Unlim. license without getting a 1600GRT Master license as long as they meet the sea time and tonnage requirements on the checklist just like an AB would have to do.
[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;52312]I do not know why there is the difference in that chart but I have been told that the test for 500/1600 mate oceans is the same as the one for 2nd mate unlimited oceans and the policy letter states directly that if you took the mates test after 2002 no further testing is required. That does not apply to the 1600 ton master test, which is not the same as the mate test so if you tested for 1600 ton mate before 2002 and master after you should still have to test to go to 2M unlimited. The thing about being a 1600 ton master for a year is about sea time, not testing. Your optons are either to work 1080 days on deck of a ship as a deckhand or to be a master of a vessel over 200 tons while holding a 1600 ton master license. That has nothing to do with the assessments or the test taken.[/QUOTE]
I understand that a 1600GRT Master has to take the exam for 3M Unlim. The problem is that let’s say someone working on a 199GRT vessel can obtain a 1600GRT Mate license. They think now they can magically get their 3M Unlim. license without doing anything else, because this policy letter says that they can do so without further training, assessments, or testing. When in reality they still have to meet the time and tonnage requirements for 3M Unlim. Once they achieve the time and tonnage requirements, then they can get a 3M Unlim. license without further training, assessments, or testing.
[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;52312]I do not know why there is the difference in that chart but I have been told that the test for 500/1600 mate oceans is the same as the one for 2nd mate unlimited oceans and the policy letter states directly that if you took the mates test after 2002 no further testing is required.[/QUOTE]
I think that’s the core problem. Since 2-1-2002, the NMC has been giving the people, who qualify for the Mate OSV, Mate 500GRT, and Mate 1600GRT, the 2M Unlim. exam, instead of the lower level exam. Hell, if they are going to only have 1 Mate exam, which is 2M Unlim., then when someone applies for a 100GRT Master, 500GRT Master, and 1600GRT Master license, they should be given the Master Unlim. exam and never have to test again either. Sounds fair, right?
[QUOTE=Cal;52311]Out of the thousands of questions on the exams you’re going to narrow it down to 73 questions that someone’s license hinges upon? On an actual test you might, if you’re lucky, end up with a 1 question difference…[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t referring to questions, but subjects required for different exams. (46 CFR 11.910-2) Each subject could contain numerous possible questions.
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52316]I wasn’t referring to questions, but subjects required for different exams. (46 CFR 11.910-2) Each subject could contain numerous possible questions.[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t change the fact that I studied for a 1600 Ton exam and was fully prepared for a 3rd Mate exam. My point being that the differences are negligible.
[QUOTE=Cal;52317]Doesn’t change the fact that I studied for a 1600 Ton exam and was fully prepared for a 3rd Mate exam. My point being that the differences are negligible.[/QUOTE]
Point well made. I’ve thought about just taking a refresher 1600GRT Master prep class to study for the 3M exam. Now, I may just take the 500GRT Mate prep course, since all of the Mate test are the same. Basically, by taking a 500GRT Mate prep course, I should pass the 3M exam because all of the test are the same. That put a whole new twist to my thinking. Awesome info.
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52314]this policy letter says that they can do so without further training, assessments, or testing.[/QUOTE]
Which is very different from sea time. It does not say that it exempts people from the proper sea time requirements, just that one does not need any further training or testing. I’m not sure how many people made an error like that but my guess is very few, and those were probably corrected very quickly by knowledgeable co-workers before getting very far in an application process.
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52315]I think that’s the core problem. Since 2-1-2002, the NMC has been giving the people, who qualify for the Mate OSV, Mate 500GRT, and Mate 1600GRT, the 2M Unlim. exam, instead of the lower level exam. Hell, if they are going to only have 1 Mate exam, which is 2M Unlim., then when someone applies for a 100GRT Master, 500GRT Master, and 1600GRT Master license, they should be given the Master Unlim. exam and never have to test again either. Sounds fair, right?[/QUOTE]
More stupid than fair…
The hardest test for me was the 1600ton Mate (old test), the easiest was the Chief Mate / Master exam (new test). The difference, 15 years in the industry by the time I took the Chief Mate / Master exam with continuous study and the practical experience gained along the way. Starting at that level, even if you could pass a test, would serve no purpose because you wouldn’t have the practical experience to back it up. There is a reason sea-time, qualifications, and demonstration of proficiency are relative to each other. It makes sense that there is a policy that has brought all the mates to a certain level when each of those mates can be 1st issue guys. It’s becomes much different past that.
[QUOTE=jdcavo;51875]It has nothing to do with “superior” licenses. It’s pretty simple. On 2/1/02 the test for mate 500, mate 1600, and mate (osv) became the same. So if you took that test once, you don’t take it again. That’s it. If your path to master 500/16700 did not include mate 500 or mate 1600, you haven’t taken that test, and there are still required subjects for 3rd mate you haven’t been tested on.[/QUOTE]
So as a Master 1600 who has completed the assessments, who can sign off on a mate’s assessments, what part of the exam did I not get?? If this is the fundamental dilemma then produce an exam that allows the Master 1600 to fill in the blanks instead of making him/her go to the back of the bus to move down. The 3rd Mate is an endorsement to the 1600 Master ticket not an upgrade. If looking at the STCW and taking the 2nd Mate STCW and the 1600 Master STCW they are the same. So what is the problem it is simple…if you have served as Master 1600 you should be able to move to 2nd Mate unlimited without any additional testing. I took my 1600 Master exam in 2005 and it was the 3rd Mate/1600 Master exam. Again I am confused as to why???
[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;52360]Which is very different from sea time. It does not say that it exempts people from the proper sea time requirements, just that one does not need any further training or testing. I’m not sure how many people made an error like that but my guess is very few, and those were probably corrected very quickly by knowledgeable co-workers before getting very far in an application process.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=captvisa;52398]So as a Master 1600 who has completed the assessments, who can sign off on a mate’s assessments, what part of the exam did I not get?? If this is the fundamental dilemma then produce an exam that allows the Master 1600 to fill in the blanks instead of making him/her go to the back of the bus to move down. The 3rd Mate is an endorsement to the 1600 Master ticket not an upgrade. If looking at the STCW and taking the 2nd Mate STCW and the 1600 Master STCW they are the same. So what is the problem it is simple…if you have served as Master 1600 you should be able to move to 2nd Mate unlimited without any additional testing. I took my 1600 Master exam in 2005 and it was the 3rd Mate/1600 Master exam. Again I am confused as to why???[/QUOTE]
That was the same exam that I passed in 2006 and U.S.C.G. said then that I wouldn’t have to test again until Chief Mate/ Master Unlim…but now they are saying that I have to retest for 3M unlim…why??? They told me then that the people who took the 1600GRT Master exam before 2-1-2002 would have to test for 3M unlim., but everyone who tested for 1600GRT Master after 2-1-2002 would not have to test for 3M Unlim. I don’t understand why we have to test again, either??? I am not worried about passing the test for the 2nd time, I just don’t like spending time away from my family for unnecessary bull%#*&!!!
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52400]That was the same exam that I passed in 2006 and U.S.C.G. said then that I wouldn’t have to test again until Chief Mate/ Master Unlim…but now they are saying that I have to retest for 3M unlim…why??? They told me then that the people who took the 1600GRT Master exam before 2-1-2002 would have to test for 3M unlim., but everyone who tested for 1600GRT Master after 2-1-2002 would not have to test for 3M Unlim. I don’t understand why we have to test again, either??? I am not worried about passing the test for the 2nd time, I just don’t like spending time away from my family for unnecessary bull%#*&!!![/QUOTE]
As bad as policy letter 01-02 was, it never said by passing a Master exam you’re good for the 3rd or 2nd Mate exam. It’s not there and never has been. You don’t have to test. You can stay right where you are. If your logic is the Master exam is the same or exceeds that of a mate, it should take very little on your part, and maybe no study at all? 2 weeks ago it would take that and $15,000. But, If I was to study anything, I would study the policy that I was trying to scrutinize, and not say “they” told me so. That’s almost as bad as My Daddy can beat up your Daddy.
Why? It’s called ‘institutional bias’. The CFRs and USCG policies are clearly designed to protect the ringknockers. As C_A suggested, and I agree in principle, someone should challenge the absolute unfairness of the system via the courts. Until then, us “lower level” types are screwed.
[QUOTE=captvisa;52398]So as a Master 1600 who has completed the assessments, who can sign off on a mate’s assessments, what part of the exam did I not get?? If this is the fundamental dilemma then produce an exam that allows the Master 1600 to fill in the blanks instead of making him/her go to the back of the bus to move down. The 3rd Mate is an endorsement to the 1600 Master ticket not an upgrade. If looking at the STCW and taking the 2nd Mate STCW and the 1600 Master STCW they are the same. So what is the problem it is simple…if you have served as Master 1600 you should be able to move to 2nd Mate unlimited without any additional testing. I took my 1600 Master exam in 2005 and it was the 3rd Mate/1600 Master exam. Again I am confused as to why???[/QUOTE]
There is no combined 1600ton Master/3rd Mate Exam.
[QUOTE=anchorman;52427]There is no combined 1600ton Master/3rd Mate Exam.[/QUOTE]
This is correct as I have now learned. However in 2005 NMC upgraded both exams for mate and master to meet the new criteria of the STCW and yes it was to bring everyone to a even playing field. I also was told that I would not have to test again until I wanted my Chief Mate Unlimited. What Happened???
The more important point is that the STCW classifies the differences as such; A2/I Mate status and 2/II as Master or management status. When you read the STCW the key words are that the A2/II contains all of the information in A2/I and more. So the fundamental question is why would we have to go backwards to prove something that the STCW says we have already proved??? If in fact there are questions on the Mates exam that should be answered by the Master 1600 then come up with a cross over exam to meet this. I also am not worried about passing the exam but rather taking the time and expending the financial resources to do it when I have already proven my point based on policy that was established when I tested the first time in 2005. It was discussed in the 2009 USCG recommendations for 1600 master to chief mate unlimited but nothing was ever done. So one would ask why??? For many of us Master 1600 the answers are clear. Perhaps the most important aspect of all of this is that policy, CFR and STCW convention differ is some way or another. If looking at the CFR (46 CFR 11.903 c) All persons looking to upgrade to 3rd Mate must take that exam. Again Why???
It would seem that as Master 1600 that I am not qualified to stand a watch based on the thinking of the current USCG despite the fact that I can sign off Mates looking for 3rd Mate.
There are too many inconsistencies that the USCG is putting out there.
[QUOTE=RazorbackNut;52314]I understand that a 1600GRT Master has to take the exam for 3M Unlim. The problem is that let’s say someone working on a 199GRT vessel can obtain a 1600GRT Mate license. They think now they can magically get their 3M Unlim. license without doing anything else, because this policy letter says that they can do so without further training, assessments, or testing. When in reality they still have to meet the time and tonnage requirements for 3M Unlim. Once they achieve the time and tonnage requirements, then they can get a 3M Unlim. license without further training, assessments, or testing.[/QUOTE]
You’re cherry picking things thats where your confusion is coming in. Read Policy letter 15-02, they will be issued a Third Mate Unlimited (with a tonnage restriction) . An unlimited/limited license if you will. It’s an avenue for people without experience on unlimited tonnage vessels to progress and sail on them without going back to the deck. There was confusion when ITC tonnage vessels started coming out. People were sailing on 2500 ton ITC vessels and getting unlimited sea time credit when they should have not. Capt. Schmitt is exactly right in his interpretation, but to my knowledge there is no test for 2nd Mate, you first must sail as a 3rd and then progress to 2nd with one year of sea-time.
[QUOTE=anchorman;52422]As bad as policy letter 01-02 was, it never said by passing a Master exam you’re good for the 3rd or 2nd Mate exam. It’s not there and never has been. You don’t have to test. You can stay right where you are. If your logic is the Master exam is the same or exceeds that of a mate, it should take very little on your part, and maybe no study at all? 2 weeks ago it would take that and $15,000. But, If I was to study anything, I would study the policy that I was trying to scrutinize, and not say “they” told me so. That’s almost as bad as My Daddy can beat up your Daddy.[/QUOTE]
I’m not scrutinizing the new policy letter 11-07. This is clearly a policy letter for Mates only, just like 01-02. The problem that I have is when someone has taken a test that was labeled 3rd Mate Unlim. / Master 1600GRT Oceans, which is what was on the cover sheet of all of my exam modules for Master 1600GRT, then after I have acquired the seatime and tonnage for 3rd Mate Unlim., why do I have to retest for 3rd Mate Unlim.? It’s the same as someone taking the 3rd Mate Unlim. / 1600GRT Mate / 500GRT Mate / Mate OSV exam for 1600GRT Mate and then the NMC says that they have to retest once they acquire the seatime and tonnage for 3rd Mate Unlim. If my exam was given in error, then they should still honor it because the exam was still passed. So, yes, the exam that I took is the same “AND” exceeds that of a Mate…that is not logic…that is a fact (3rd Mate Unlim. / Master 1600GRT Oceans). Once again…I intend on retaking the 3rd Mate exam. Using logic…I “feel” that I shouldn’t have to retake the 3rd Mate Unlim. exam based on what PL 11-07 says for mates, since I have already taken the 3rd Mate exam.
