[QUOTE=RkyMtn Paul;43297]Geez. All I said was that if I had that kind of money, I’d be spending it like crazy. Figure I couldn’t spend it all. I’d buy a bunch of yachts so all you slackers could have a job. Schint had better work and be clean, though!! ;)[/QUOTE]
[B]I agree, I would have some killer hobbies, cCaptan should look into helping out some of those with the “microloan” theroy. Pretty interesting, but seems to be working.[/B]
“Due to the success of microcredit, many in the traditional banking industry have begun to realize that these microcredit borrowers should more correctly be categorized as [I]pre-bankable[/I]; thus, microcredit is increasingly gaining credibility<SUP style=“WHITE-SPACE: nowrap” class=Template-Fact title=“This claim needs references to reliable sources from October 2009”>[[I]citation needed[/I]]</SUP> in the mainstream finance industry, and many traditional large finance organizations are contemplating microcredit projects as a source of future growth, even though almost everyone in larger development organizations discounted the likelihood of success of microcredit when it was begun.”
[B]It’s aparrently working for some wealthier people not noted as much as Gates or Buffet. [/B]
[B]On [I]my[/I] scale, " Your broke when you don’t have any money." “Your poor when you don’t have any friends.” ; )[/B]
The megayacht industry put nearly $660 million into the UK economy last year. It put somewhere around 5 billion into the US economy, much if not most of that came from foreign sources. To keep this in a perspective many gCaptain readers can appreciate, ask the folks who work for Trinity Yachts if they would be better off if Trinity went away. Make sure you get the opinion of those who lost everything to Katrina. Most of that money came from foreign buyers of Trinity’s megayachts.
Megayachts employ thousands of skilled and unskilled workers in Florida. The multiplier on those jobs means hundreds of thousands of workers and small businesses exist because someone is willing to invest in a large yacht.
Thank Heavens for the spending habits of the ultra-rich … they charter their boats to the merely rich, they employ more people than most of us even see in a day.
My income depends on the money super rich megayacht owners spend and I don’t begrudge them one cent of it.
I just spent the week in Southern California looking at some work on a megayacht that put well over another million dollars into the local economy. The army of painters, mechanics, technicians, woodworkers, artists, and craftspeople, car rental companies, airlines, restaurants, chandlers, and who knows who else pay their rent and feed their children because a rich guy dropped another million on his yacht - on top of what he will leave in ports between California, the Caribbean, and the Med over the next year. The salaries alone go to feed children in Africa, the Philippines, America, Denmark, UK, it feeds children and pays bills all over the world. Very little of that money goes into the pockets of corrupt charities, their managers, or politicians, unless of course those who depend on that yacht and hundreds like it choose to donate their income to a “good cause.”
Yes, I think megayachts are obscene displays of wealth but have you once read in my posts that they should be banned? No, you haven’t. Have I once said that the money which go to families of workers in the the megayacht industry was insignificant? No, I never raised that anywhere. What I have stated was that megayachts didn’t put back anything to “society” or rather, their owners don’t. Now, if there are owners of ultra megayachts that have charitable foundations or giving that exceeds what they spend on their toys then I say GOOD, they at least follow a “moral compass”. You know the many megayacht owners of the world so enlighten me if such owners are out there. I would honestly like to know. Other very rich like Bill and Melina Gates or Warren Buffett who forego the oppulence of having toys like ultra megayachts and instead have great charitable foundations, then I say WONDERFUL…they are “THE” moral compass that other ultra wealthy should follow!
My contention has always been that for the super rich have a “moral” rather than “legal” obligation to society which I believe allows them to have their very great wealth and to have their ultra toys which is exactly what a megayacht is…a plaything. Does any one here believe that the very rich have a “right” to their money as an “entitlement” with no strings attached? I pointed out that in the past ten years there has been a building boom of extreme yachts which makes the times of J.P. Morgan and the CORSAIR shrink to pale insignificance. Is it morally right for the Roman Abramovich’s or Paul Allen’s of the world to have their ECLIPSE’s or OPTOPUS’s without giving back something to society? Do those yachts benefit the humanity of the world or do they represent instead a form of ultimate selfishness? Do they make the people of the world less hungry, healthier, more enducated, live longer? No they do NOT. Yes, Paul Allen has given $1B of his wealth to charities in his lifetime but if you go his website to see what charities he supports, it lists very few by name and really doesn’t say what those charities actually do support. It also doesn’t break anything down to hard numbers like on the Gates Foundation site. And Paul Allen is actually a runner up in the ultra megayacht game. Roman Abramovich is the kingfish there and in case anyone is interested you can read about the ultra oligarch here and try to find in there the charities he supports? Believe me, it ain’t much. Rather check out the section about his “boats”. Talk about having an obsession with extreme playtoys! He’s downright pathological about them.
Nobody likes sermons on morality…but one should think that there are close to a eighty million in the US who live below the poverty level and well more than one billion in the world. Can the Gates Foundation eliminate that…no they can’t, but they can HELP and they do keep children alive who would otherwise die. Does the many hundreds of millions that the ultra rich spend each year on their ultra megayachts help any of those same kids?..NONE AT ALL! That is why I think such displays of ultra wealth as extreme yachts are morally bankrupt.
Steamer, Anchorman and I have been going after each other now for more than two years so I expect his swipes at any position I take but I certainly hope that you can see that any issue has many sides to it and that includes moral ones as well?
Yacht ownership and philanthropy are not mutually exclusive (I know that for an absolute fact) and some people who own megayachts own the boat rather than keep a “cottage” in Newport or a villa in the South of France. Just because they have enough money to buy and support a yacht doesn’t mean they finance it out of the bellies of third world families.
Why are the things “obscene?” Some are ugly, many are ostentatious, most are “over the top” but they are what they are, a boat. If the uber-rich bought jumbo jets rather than megayachts is that better? Boeing makes and sells “business” versions of the 737, should Boeing stop selling them and tell the buyers to donate the cash instead?
The argument against megayachts can be applied to the church. If the Vatican sold off all its art and emptied its vaults it could feed the world for a couple of weeks. Then what? The newly revived will breed more starving children and who is going to convert their treasury to feed them next month?
If you want to help starving children, stop selling guns and landmines to their parents. If you want to help hurricane victims in the Gulf rebuild their lives, buy a Trinity yacht.
A boat is just a boat, it can’t be obscene in any manner. If you mean the act of spending a great deal of money on one is obscene that is another issue altogether.
If spending millions to employ thousands is obscene, how is Warren Buffet a standard of decency? He just hordes money and that employs no one other than a handful of money changers. I suggest a single megayacht from its inception employs and distributes more wealth across the social spectrum in more countries than anything Buffet’s hording will ever do.
I was recently in a Central American marina that was developed for the megayacht trade. It employed hundreds of locals directly, and created a market for local goods that never existed before. That marina and the megayachts that visit it pay very good money to the local farmers who have hungry little children. The megayacht industry is a real world example of “trickle down” economics, only it floods down to real people on the ground, not just a handful of bankers and investors.
“If spending millions to employ thousands is obscene, how is Warren Buffet a standard of decency? He just hordes money and that employs no one other than a handful of money changers.”
Actually Buffet and Bershire Hathaway owned companies employee many, many people.
Here’s a fairly recent list.
Geico (Insurance)
General Re (Insurance)
NRG (Insrance)
Berkshire Hathaway Assurance (Insurance)
Approx. 84% of Mid American Holding Company (Energy)
Union Underwear Corp. - Fruit of the Loom (Textile)
Fechheimer Brothers
Garan (Textile)
Russell Corporation (Textile)
H.H Brown Shoe Group (Footwear)
Acme Boots (Footwear)
Justin Brands (Footwear)
Acme Building Brands (Building Products)
Benjamin Moore & Co (Paint)
MiTek (Building Products)
Shaw Industries (Carpet)
Clayton Homes (Home Builder)
FlightSafety International (Aviation Training)
NetJets (Jet Fractional Ownership Company)
Nebraska Furniture Mart
R.C. Willey Home Furnishings
Star Furniture Company
Jordan’s Furniture, Inc.
CORT Business Services Corporation (Furniture Rental)
The Pampered Chef (Kitchenware)
See’s Candies
Dairy Queen (including Orange Julius and Karmlkorn)
Marmon Holdings Inc. (Manufacturing)
McLane Company (Logistic Services)
Scott Fetzer Companies (Manufacturing)
Xtra Lease (Transportation Lessor)
Burlington Northern (Railroad)
[QUOTE=tengineer;43346].Actually Buffet and Bershire Hathaway owned companies employee many, many people.
[/QUOTE]
I believe that your post misses the point entirely. This is about how individuals use their personal wealth to the benefit of others. Buffet hordes his personal wealth. How many people does he employ directly? How many people benefit from his personal wealth?
Buffet is wealthy because he uses other people’s money to buy and sell stock - paper promises - documents with no intrinsic value. He does not create wealth, he merely siphons it from those who actually do. He gets a piece of the action, he doesn’t act. He doesn’t risk his personal bank account to create jobs or purchase the products of those who do. He takes great pride in hording rather than circulating his cut of the “deal.” Buffet is the perfect example of those who accumulate and give almost nothing back.
Many owners of megayachts own large companies too, some of them own multiple companies. They also employ “many, many people.” Most of them do it directly, they risk their own capital, the money to purchase and support those boats comes from their own pockets. They do not just manage investment firms that produce nothing other than paper and generate profits by moving money from one column to another.
When Buffet buys a 100 meter yacht and takes it around the world I will give him credit for contributing something to society.
That has been my point entirely from the beginning…it is how a very wealthy person uses "their personal wealth to the benefit of others" which could be through direct or even indirect employment but can also be through CHARITY. Warren Buffett may not directly employ thousands but he is donating his wealth right now along with Bill and Melina Gates and have funded together the largest private charitable foundation ever created which helps millions and employs certainly thousands throughout the world administrating their many programs and in doing the work right at the source. They undoubtedly employ more there alone than those employed by Paul Allen’s or Roman Abramovich’s megayachts. Go to the website for the Gates Foundation to see in detail those many programs they directly support, it is truly global in scope. There are also of course, people employed to build, decorate, maintain, supply and crew the world’s many megayachts. No doubt, those workers and their families are supported by the owners of these yachts and that includes a number of poor when those yachts call in foreign countries like in Central America yet I think that number would be quite small since taking care of megayachts requires considerable highly developed skills. I don’t know what poor unskilled workers would actually do for a megayacht when it is tied up in their country other than supply food? As an example, I know many yachts stop at the San Blas Islands in Panama where the local native population goes out to the yachts in their canoes with Lobsters and fish to sell along with other handicrafts. In the end though these people still live on little sandspits without running water or electricity. The dichotomy between the very rich and the very poor is striking and profound. Do the megayachts provide money to those who live on the San Blas Islands? Yes, they do. Do they help them rise out of a poverty existence? No they don’t.
Also, to clarify my use of the word “obscene” with regard to ultra megayachts (eg. ECLIPSE or OCTOPUS) this is where I derive my use of the word.
d: so excessive as to be offensive <obscene wealth>
Anyway Steamer, it is obvious that you and I have a fundimental disagreement on this topic but I don’t want to keep punching each other over this one. Let’s just agree to disagree. I am glad that we have solidarity over the other issues that are immedately more important to our profession. Let’s keep going after those bastards!
[QUOTE=c.captain;43328]Steamer
Steamer, Anchorman and I have been going after each other now for more than two years so I expect his swipes at any position I take but I certainly hope that you can see that any issue has many sides to it and that includes moral ones as well?[/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree with every position that you take, but some are assumptions that I know are wrong, or opinion of the facts - not the facts themselves. We’re both opinionated - nothing wrong with that. But, hell, we all can agree with one thing - that Gates, Buffet, and Allen aren’t sitting around thinking about posts on gCaptain right now.
[QUOTE=anchorman;43361]hell, we all can agree with one thing - that Gates, Buffet, and Allen aren’t sitting around thinking about posts on gCaptain right now.[/QUOTE]
something not considered in this giving to the poor is that you cant force people to take the help the RIGHT way. Our country is one of entitlements. Peoiple feel they are OWED what they have not earned. If you gave every family living under the poverty level 20,000 dollars (just an abstract number), yes SOME would be better off in the long run but many if not most would stay below the poverty level. Instead of paying down debt, continuing education, or making an investment such as home ownership, ect, most would just have a new car, flat screen, iphones, clothes, ect and STILL be poor. Thats what happens when the government redistributes wealth via tax returns beyond what is paid in(over half of all Americans recieve more than they give) or when stimulus checks are issued. Responsibility is a choice.
A megayacht is a small business. I ran a yacht that at 110’ employed 4 full time plus all the contractors I kept busy with regular work. I have friends that run yachts in the 180’ range with full time crews of 12-15. I cant imagine the crew a 300’ yacht carries but its substantial for sure.
Boy, the L is so bitter and quick to show it. Poor me, I can’t do better, Somebody better take care of me, Work is too hard. If you don’t like the people you work for, you have the right to find anouther job and do as well as the supper rich, so you are ether happy with what you have or you don’t have the balls to make it better.
[QUOTE=c.captain;43354] No doubt, those workers and their families are supported by the owners of these yachts and that includes a number of poor when those yachts call in foreign countries like in Central America yet I think that number would be quite small since taking care of megayachts requires considerable highly developed skills. I don’t know what poor unskilled workers would actually do for a megayacht when it is tied up in their country other than supply food? [/QUOTE]
Just for the record, that Central American marina now supports a fleet of locally owned sports fishing boats that were not there before. It supports a chandlery and restaurant, it employs a greatly expanded construction company working on enlarging the marina and supporting infrastructure. Those people directly employed by the marina, and the next tier removed, are far from poor unskilled workers. That marina was concieved for and exists to support the many megayachts that visited those water and now make it a destination, it has moved many of the locals into a growing middle class who own houses and pickup trucks, and has made successful entrepeneurs of a few others.
The San Blas Islanders choose to maintain their isolation. They are an autonomous economic group who fiercely protect their culture, language, and heritage by limiting outside influence. They are far from being exploited by uber-rich yachties.
OK, OK…like I said in my earlier post, let’s just agree to disagree on this one. Punching eachother bloody is pointless, because for whatever they represent, I know full well the ultra megayachts of the world and their owners are not going away. However, I am still squarely behind the Gates’ and Warren Buffett for their charitable giving in lieu of having megayachts which they certainly could afford to have if they wanted.
Anyway Steamer, you make your living in the yacht community and I make mine in offshore drilling. Pretty much polar opposite worlds although some new drillships cost almost as much as ECLIPSE did
Btw, I have not mentioned it yet but I think DELPHINE is amazing and find it is incredible that she is for sale at only 38M pounds. Did her complete rebuild cost many times that? I remember when she limped into Gibraltar in 1991 after barely making it across the Atlantic from Norfolk and getting to go aboard her there. You literally could see daylight through the decks and there were small trees still growing out of them. My God…the work it must have taken to bring her to what she it now.
well those other people may have pretty awsome stuff but you have to admit Johns are pretty cool.(faster to):}[ATTACH]1161[/ATTACH][ATTACH]1162[/ATTACH][ATTACH]1163[/ATTACH][ATTACH]1164[/ATTACH][ATTACH]1165[/ATTACH]
So uh, you are totally against Yachts in general? I am trying to figure you out and why you are a “Top Contributer” to this forum when all you want to do is bash yachts. So are you hoping someone will give you a yacht ?
Figure I couldn’t spend it all. I’d buy a bunch of yachts so all you slackers could have a job. Schint had better work and be clean, though!! ;)[/QUOTE]