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Maritime Topics 500 Ton Master Upgrade
1

I have to say that I have a very heavy and burdened heart when it comes to my 1600T upgrade I am currently studying for. There is so much that I cannot understand and so much speculation from other crewmembers that I just don’t know what to believe. I am referring to the requirements; not the course material itself. I would appreciate some very specific questions be answered. Please do not brow-beat me if these were answered time and time again. For specifics, I currently have the following:

200T Mate NC, 100T Master NC, 500 ITC W Radar, ARPA and GMDSS Endorsement. AB OSV.

1080 12hr days underway. Of those days, (aprx)
200 days were as AB on 859 GRT (Not ITC) Vessel
440 days were as AB on 384 GRT (Not ITC) Vessel
180 days were as AB on 200 GRT or Less Vessel
260 days were as Mate on 195 GRT Vessel

If I am reading these policy letters correctly, I will very soon (100 more days as Mate) be eligible for Master 500/Mate 1600. Is this correct?

When I finally reach 720 days as Mate or Master sea-time, will my license be eligible for 1600T Master upgrade or will I have to re-test at that time?

Ok, the next part. PL01-02 page 1-2 under #6 states Training and Assessment of skills and has many things listed such as Meteorology, Basic Ship Stability, Ship Construction, etc. Are these really classes I have to take? Seriously? I sincerely hope I have been told right all this time that by simply studying on my own and taking certain courses (Advanced FF, GMDSS, etc) that I could get my 1600T without having to spend months at school and off the job. If this is the case, I understand why people opt to go with the Mate OSV program but I want more.

Alright, lastly about Lapware vs Hawsepipe. Is Lapware really worth it? I have been using the 500/1600 CD from Hawsepipe and am not entirely satisfied with it, especially when I find a problem I don’t know the answer for and don’t know where to go to find the answer. What kind of Internet speed do you need… ie, is satellite too slow to make lapware work?

Thanks guys, I do appreciate it.

2

You wanted clarity…Well this will surely confuse you!

You have an interesting collection of sea time.

The sea time is valid (depending on the type of vessel you served on) to count either as one day per day served, or 1.5 days per day served.

If the vessels you served on were authorized to have a two watch system, then those days (but ONLY those days on that particular vessel) would count as 1.5 to one. For instance, your time as Mate on the 195 ton vessel (depending on what type it was) may count 260 (12 hour days) as 390 days!

more info!!!

Once you pass the 500 ton exam, you will have to reapply and retake the 1600. You won’t get a freebie upgrade.

Make ABSOLUTELY certain you are counting the seatime correctly. the NMC WON’T do that for you. If you ‘could have’ they wouldn’t let you know to your benefit! Have you considered hiring one of these ‘license consultants’ to go over your seatime and information? They do this for a living, and are usually retired USCG REC guys who know their shit.

3

[QUOTE=cappy208;51331]Once you pass the 500 ton exam, you will have to reapply and retake the 1600.[/QUOTE]

If you have done so, forgive me. But I hope you are wrong on the retake/retest part for the 1600. I was hoping it was a straight upgrade. I was looking around on the nmc site, and this is what I found.

[LEFT]* [B]SERVICE REQUIREMENT for MASTER NMT 1600 46CFR 11.412[/LEFT]
[/B][LEFT]* [B]LICENSING NOTES[/LEFT]
[/B][LEFT]Applicants holding an endorsement as NMT 500 GRT Master Oceans or Near Coastal, originally
issued [B]after [/B]1 February 2002, may increase the scope of their license to NMT 1600 GRT by[/LEFT]
presenting evidence of the required sea time. No further testing is required.

…But they can change the rules when they want…

4

Swampfox… u are correct. Mybad

5

Cappy is right about the 1.5 sea time. You might already be there.

Are you going for Master or Mate? Believe it or not, Master 500 requires less classes than the mate level class requirements. Have you looked at the check\lists on the NMC web site?

http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists.asp

Have you checked out Capt. Joe’s CD study guide? It has all the solutions worked out. Definitely worth the price, and no internet or monthly subscription charges. www.[B]uscg[/B]exam.com

6

Save yourself any discrepancy and call the NMC with any and all questions. They have great hours of operation and are very helpful.

7

I totally support Cappy’s reccommendation on calling a license consultant…You think you are confused now? Go ahead and call the NMC and you will know what real confusion is…

As far as the courses are concerned ,yes they are real classes…Something like 16 total but you already have a few with radar,arpa and gmdss…

8

[QUOTE=cappy208;51331]Make ABSOLUTELY certain you are counting the seatime correctly.[/QUOTE]

I am absolutely certain that my Mate time will count as 1.5 as there are at all times two watches (6a-6p, 6p-6a) and I sign a OICNW each morning when I come on. I forgot about the 1.5 thing; thank you for reminding me of that

[QUOTE=water;51336]Cappy is right about the 1.5 sea time. You might already be there.

Are you going for Master or Mate?[/QUOTE]

For this upgrade I am going for the highest qualification I can test for. I checked the checklist before posting but that was really part of the confusion… I didn’t understand how mate 1600T required more training and assessments than Master 1600T.

[QUOTE=Shellback;51340]I totally support Cappy’s reccommendation on calling a license consultant…You think you are confused now? Go ahead and call the NMC and you will know what real confusion is…

As far as the courses are concerned ,yes they are real classes…Something like 16 total but you already have a few with radar,arpa and gmdss…[/QUOTE]

Any consultants that are recommended by gCaptain or some of its members?

9

Ok, another view just for the fun of it.

Going for mate 500/1600/3rd NC or oceans will require all the classes and assessments to fulfill the STCW requirements. This is the route that I am taking and it is long and expensive. I don’t have any time as master/mate, worked my way up from OS.

Now, the few people that I have met that were going for the 500 master and were NOT doing the STCW classes and assessments because they are not required. It is simply the classes you already have plus BRM and whatever else is on the checklist. But, these people had worked as 100 masters for more than 2 years.

http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/master_oc_nc_500_1600.pdf?list1=checklists%2Fmaster_oc_nc_500_1600.pdf&B1=GO!

Here is the link to the checklist. The only difference between 500 and 1600 is the tonnage and amount of total seatime required.

As for your seatime. I don’t think it makes a hoot what you think your seatime is worth, where the rubber meets the road is what does your seatime letter say. i.e. 1563 12 hr. days or does it just say 1563 days? It should be very specific and not open to interpretation. It should list the vessels you were on, tonnage, the capacity you worked as, and route NC or oceans or inland.

The difference between the a license obtained by working thru all the classes and assessments and obtaining the OICNW endorsement as mate vs. the work around, I can tell you I don’t know, but the good news is that if it were ever some type of restriction (domestic only) you would be able to get that restriction lifted by completing the classes and assessments.

If you take all the classes and you want to learn something you can; or you can just keep your mouth shut, stay awake in class, and color inside the lines like a good boy and you will get by and get your certificates. Most of the classes do include the assessments for that section so there is only a handful that have to be done shipboard. It’s nothing to be worried about except for you won’t have a life for a couple of years and you will be broke for the those years plus some.

Now, one last item… contacting the NMC for help. If you email them which I suggest you do because you then have a paper trail they will be of little help as possible. If you ask about the requirements they will send you a copy of the checklist and you are on your own to interpret all the requirements. If you ask about your seatime they will tell you that you will have to apply and send in your package and then and only then will an evaluator tell you what you have. If you call them better ask if you can record the conversation because you have nothing to fall back on when they blow smoke on the phone. It is almost quite worthless in my opinion. It’s like pressing the help button on some crappy software to find out “posting a quick reply” you look up the instructions on posting a quick reply and it says… “to post a quick reply, press the quick reply button”. Like, duh. But it gives you no insight or where when or how you might want to do that.

I wish you good luck, I have been working on trying to understand all the requirements since I filled out my application for my Z-card to become an OS and it has only gotten worse every step of the way since then. I am at the point of applying for my 3rd mate and still I have concerns that can not be answered until after I apply and get evaluated (so they say). I am pre-typing out my appeal even before I file the application just to save time. So I don’t have a lot of faith that you will get the same answers or even correct answers whether you ask questions here, consult a consultant, call the NMC, email the NMC, or use the magic 8 ball. My best advice is take everyones advice and then go look it up and find the text that supports it, being CFR’s, policy letters, NVIC’s, checklists, etc. Sadly, you are on your own and at the mercy of the Gods of bureaucracy.

10

I don’t recommend products or people unless I have solid personal results and in this case I do…

Andy, was fantastic, we dealt with the issues and possible roadblocks ahead of time with letters explaining our position…With policies backing it up…He sees it through till the end and takes care of any appeals also…I don’t know what he charges these days but I paid a flat fee,which I really liked and he earned every dime by the time he was done…My app was very complicated and it went through in 2 days…
Good luck…

http://hammondmaritime.com/

11

Based on the sea service he listed in the original post, I don’t see where he has the 720 days as master, mate or equivalent to qualify for either the 500GRT or 1600GRT MASTERS…Looks like he’s got the time for mate ( which means you need the OICNW courses )…But unless I overlooked something I don’t see the time necessary to qualify for the 500/1600 GRT Masters.

Even at 1.5 x (260+100)…it isn’t enough for the 720 days as Mate. If you are given 1.5 days credit for each day you will need 480 days as mate to satisfy that requirement.

Did I overlook something any one else has seen?

As for the lapware, I loved it…Ships satellite connection worked fine for me.

Good luck, it’s all a big pain BUT worth it when it’s done.

EDIT: Added the attachment, Both 500 and 1600 Masters require 720 days as Master or Mate

12

[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;51354]As for your seatime. I don’t think it makes a hoot what you think your seatime is worth, where the rubber meets the road is what does your seatime letter say. i.e. 1563 12 hr. days or does it just say 1563 days?[/QUOTE]

Both employers seatime letters specifically state all time from each vessel were "12 hour days, underway"
Honestly; I want to take all the classes as you have suggested and actually learn something. Realistically; I don’t have the bankroll and can’t afford that kind of time-commitment.

[QUOTE=Shellback;51362]Andy, was fantastic[/QUOTE] duly noted, thank you.

[QUOTE=Conspearasea;51363]Based on the sea service he listed in the original post,[…]
As for the lapware, I loved it…Ships satellite connection worked fine for me.
[/QUOTE]

Your calculation was right; I lack ~300 days for the Master 500T.

Ok… one more thing I would like to bring up since we’re at it.

Manilla ammendments. If I have read this right, and I think that I have, the main points are for required ECDIS training; enhanced refresher training, two new titles for RFPNW and RFPEW that are STCW compliant and lastly some changes in Celestial and Flashing Light training. No where did I read anywhere that 500T or 1600T licensing would be affected. Is this right?

13

[B]You DO have the time required to get a 1600 ton MATES license. Why not go get that?[/B] But you WILL have to retest to get the Masters license :frowning:

The 12 hour versus 8 hours a day (and how it is credited towards your applicable seatime) has undergone ALOT of scrutiny since January 1st. by the NMC. They are aware now that just because a sea service letter says 12 hour days, does NOT automatically mean they will accept your 1.5 days for a day calculation.

The vessel you serve on MUST be allowed to have a two watch system, AND it must actually USE a two watch system.

The reason for this change in attitude by the USCG is that most companies with a 3 watch system require the employees to work 12 hours, in other words, 8 hours of watch, and 4 more of deck utility, or maintenance. This extra 4 hours is NOT creditable to use towards ‘sea time’ for a license. They got ‘wise’ to the abuse of this improper abuse of seatime.

However if you DO have legitimate 12 hours a day watchstanding, on a vessel which IS allowed to stand 12 hour watches, you can submit a company letter saying so.

Then the problem is when you get an incompetent, overzealous evaluator who throws the whole application out because they don’t like one part of your sea service letter. Then you are left guessing what the problem is with your application, since the ‘canned’ explanations aren’t clear about what they really want, or what they are rejecting about your service.

Recapping, just because you are standing 12 hour watches, does NOT mean they will accept it. You may have to prove the vessel you were on is specifically allowed to run with 2 watches!

14

[QUOTE=cappy208;51394][B]You DO have the time required to get a 1600 ton MATES license. Why not go get that?[/B] But you WILL have to retest to get the Masters license :-([/QUOTE]

I’m ok with re-testing; its the taking the 15-some-odd classes part that I cannot realistically accomplish. Terrestrial Navigation, Ships Construction, Emergency Procedures… these all sound great and I would probably enjoy sitting through them, soaking it up… but I don’t have the time or the bankroll to make that happen. By waiting for my 500T masters time to come up, I forego having to take those classes and can test immediately for the masters license

15

[QUOTE=cappy208;51394][B]You DO have the time required to get a 1600 ton MATES license. Why not go get that?[/B] But you WILL have to retest to get the Masters license :-([/QUOTE]

I’m ok with re-testing; its the taking the 15-some-odd classes part that I cannot realistically accomplish. Terrestrial Navigation, Ships Construction, Emergency Procedures… these all sound great and I would probably enjoy sitting through them, soaking it up… but I don’t have the time or the bankroll to make that happen. By waiting for my 500T masters time to come up, I forego having to take those classes and can test immediately for the masters license

16

There are some very big changes in the works for the 500GRT and 1600GRT Masters. If and when these changes happen, there likely will be no new 500 Masters issued, and in order to get a 1600 Master there will be a slew of management level courses that are similar to the OICNW modules. There might even wind up being a Chief Mate 1600 license between the Master and Mate license.

There isn’t a set date yet but the writing on the wall is beginning to point to 1/1/2012 …do some searches here about the new STCW changes, and the NPRM from nov 09.

This .pdf from the USCG website is urging the training schools to get compliant with the new STCW 2010 regs.

http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/announcements/stcw_workshop_msib.pdf

There isn’t a lot of info available right now, lots of speculation…but it will affect your path to 1600 Masters quite likely.

Good luck, hope this doesnt just add to the confusion.