Military 2 Mariner

Maritime Employment
41

Below you will find some of my insights and responses as to making the transition from M2M. My first guidance is to research the credentialing process diligently. Your observation is correct “crazy how different this compared to the military.” I found it so when I made the transition.

I want to go back to your statement “Currently I meet the minimum requirements to take 1st A/E exam”.

You indicated in your June post that NMC provided you with an Awaiting Information (AI) Letter in it you were provided what was needed for “Approval to Test” for 1 AE exam.

Are you receipt of your Approval to Test Letter from the NMC for 1st AE?

Up to this point I have some concerns. So, let’s go over what should have been provided in the NMC AI letter.

Service Requirements:
In reading the thread, I see no comment that you currently hold or held an MMC as a A/E. This is your starting point to qualify for the license you are requesting.

(1) One of the requirements for 1st A/E. Using the NMC Checklist or 46 CFR 11.512, I see the requirement for 360 days of service as an assistant engineer while holding 2nd A/E, or 360 days of service as a Chief Engineer (limited).

(2) Moving back to 2nd A/E. Using the NMC Checklist or 46 CFR 11.514, I find 360 days of service while holding a MMC as 3rd A/E, OF WHICH 180 days of service as 3rd A/E.

(3) Finally refer to 3rd A/E NMC Checklist or 46 CFR 11.516 which requires 1080 days of service in the engine room with 720 days as QMED or equivalent position.

I believe you meet the requirements of this license. I recommend you look at the post by jdcavo in Apr 11, 2022 What counts as an “Equivalent Position” - the term “equivalent position” is meant to refer to military service being equivalent to service on a commercial vessel, see 46 CFR 10.232(d)(1).

Propulsion Mode and Cross Over Requirements:
Also he posted - Whichever propulsion mode you apply for, at least one-third of the required service be on the mode you are applying for. If you don’t have this, you would need to take a course for that propulsion mode. See 46 CFR 11.502.

Service in Lower Shipboard Positions:
You have been provided guidance that an officer endorsement lets you serve in lower capacities, so 1st AE can serve as 2nd or 3rd.

A follow-on question would be “does the officer endorsement include endorsements for QMED position or is the qualified ratings Endorsements tested separately?”.

Later, I willing provide additional comments based on my experience in making my transition from the military to a maritime deck officer but first I need to know what the NMC evaluator has actually qualified you for.

Also, I am sure that others will also will continue to provide their comments and recommendations for you.

42

Good evening

With my MMC application for some reason 2 or 3 files were not received by
NMC and was the main purpose of the AI letter they sent me.

They were nice enough to
read through the cover letter I had sent off asking about the approval to test info and what needed to be done.

The letter was quite long and felt kinda bad because that info is all on checksheets.

Here is what they mentioned they needed from me:

  1. General FF
  2. Advanced FF
  3. First Aid / CPR was listed.

This was all included in what I had originally sent off. They just didn’t receive the other two files. (Not sure why). I sent 3 of 3 files. They got 1 of 3.

It appears were very generous in evaluations my 3 EOOW letters and sea duty at 60%.

I had spent 20 days counting and drafting up a really nice set of letters signed by the Commanding Officer and they took it.

With all of that said. I’m definitely a lot more read up on CFRs, Checksheets and what most of the requirements are.

When I do receive the completed MMC evaluation. It will most likely be an entry level Enlisted type ( Wiper )

The approval to test for 1 AE should come after or at some point.

Currently:
Signed up for Lifeboat / PSC course and Medical Provider.

Taking ERM, MEECE and the Leadership gap courses now. Will fly back to Maine and complete them at Maine Maritme.

I’ve got a ways to go but will keep
the post going with updates.

I’m stationed overseas so just taking what I can for now.

43

They don’t have many left in the U.S. Navy either.

MSC has 5 steam ships
that I know of.

I agree 100% with you on this.
Will get the diesel experience.

I’m looking forward to it.

44

Do you already hold an STCW endorsement for OICEW? If not you are going to need to do all of the courses and assessments for OICEW. See para 2.d of Enclosure (1) to NVIC 15-14:

…Mariners who have not held an STCW endorsement as OICEW, 2EO, or CEO for 750 kW/1,000 HP or more issued after 1997 must also meet the requirements of 46 CFR 11.329 for qualification as OICEW.
See also #3 under “competencies” on the NMC checklist.

45

Nope

Specifically
46 CFR 11.329

“I shouldn’t have to take them”

Note: I do know now that I should plan on taking them.

Doesn’t hurt to ask. More specifically I think the U. S. Navy is way behind.

All they’d have to do is add some equivalents to the approved list or get a nice letter signed by the Captain at the National Maritime Center.

Looks like USCG (military) has done a few things in this area.

Prior to getting out. I’ll ask or write a letter and inquire.

46

Thank you for the response to my questions. We may need to take my future comments using the PM feature.

Tracking Application Status:
When responding to your NMC evaluators AI Letter: alway check that they have received what you have sent. This in my opinion, should be done by emails at iasknmc@uscg.mil. This gives you written verification as to what they should have on file.

Your AI response timeline is 90 days from the date of the letter. Based on the letter comments you may need to request a modification of your application to meet the timeline and regulatory requirements for the qualified position(s) they will accept.

Training Certificates:
Were your training certificates for General A.K.A Basic FF, Advanced FF, and First Aid / CPR done at USCG Approved Schools. If not - they can not accept them. A lot of Navy Training is not on the Coast Guard Approved Course List.

Application Status
As I don’t have your application request or the AI letter in front of me: I can only provide general guidance and ask questions that provide me background knowledge as to your application request and status.

National Position Qualifications
On your 719B Section II Credential or Endorsements Requested. You had a few options based on your sea service and experience e.g., Officer or Qualified Ratings (QMED) were possibilities. The Entry Level wiper rating position is not the best option as does not consider your sea time or your time in the engine room.

STCW Position Qualifications
The STCW endorsements have additional requirements - including training and shipboard demonstrations for different shipboard positions (1) support level: RFPEW and Able Seafarer Engine, (2) Operator: OICEW and (3) Shipboard Management Positions. Maine Maritime should have the training options that you will need.

The shipboard demonstrations can be addressed while in the Navy. See NVIC 9-14 Enclosure (2) page 3 which provides military assessor qualification and shipboard position assessment requirements for (Ratings forming Part of an Engineering Watch or Able Seafarer-Engine), operational level (OICEW). Also review STCW checklists for (second engineer officer/chief engineer) as suggested by Mr. Cavo.

Consider looking at the propulsion crossover options.

47

Not so easy. The Navy has to document and submit it for approval, and then the content is reviewed and if acceptable, approved. It’s a lot more than adding a few words to a list. They need more than “trust me, it’s in there.”

48

In addition to the ones with MSC, there are a number of steam ships currently in Marad’s ROS fleet as well as several active on the Great Lakes. The operating companies for the Marad ships and Great Lakes vessels are all under AMO contract.

At the moment concentrate on getting a license. What to do with it afterwards is secondary.

49

Agree. Here is an example of one and it looks like the approval letter is expired.

LINK:

https://www.cool.osd.mil/usn/pubs/SWOS_Firefighting_USCG_Certification.pdf

Military started the process but it’s unfinished, expired or never got rolling.

I’ll plan on taking them all for now.

50

A little prodding cannot hurt. A few years ago the NDAA (national defense authorization act) had something directing the services to seek recognition of their training. I’;ll see if I can find or remember what year that was. I think it was a few years before COVID but I’m not sure.

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51

Mr. Cavo, I am not sure if this is what you may be refering to.

I recall President Trump on March 4, 2019 issued an executive order 13860 related to Supporting the Transition of Active Duty Servicemembers and Military Veterans Into the Merchant Marine.

Sec. 3. Credentialing Support. (a) To support merchant mariner credentialing and the maintenance of such credentials, the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of Homeland Security, with respect to the applicable services in their respective departments, and in coordination with one another and with the United States Committee on the Marine Transportation System, shall, consistent with applicable law:

(i) Within 1 year from the date of this order, identify all military training and experience within the applicable service that may qualify for merchant mariner credentialing, and submit a list of all identified military training and experience to the United States Coast Guard National Maritime Center for a determination of whether such training and experience counts for credentialing purposes;…

Some services took this to heart. The US Army Transportation Corps was leading the way for their 88K deck and 88L programs prior to the order, after the order the USCG started submitted courses to comply. The other services in my opinion have been slow and spotty in compliance.

The overall results of this order can be found in the current USCG Approved/ Accepted Course list.

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52

Not sure the CG is any better honestly.
I had to take a 5 day Radar class for my MMC despite being a radarman in the CG :rofl:

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53

:rofl: Exactly.

So for instance the EOOW or OICEW.
To take a 6 - 8 week course in steam.

This requirement is intended for people that have never stood that watch.
Introductory. No experience.

I’ve served now for almost 26 years in the military. All steam.

It looks like that was good enough to take the exam for 1 AE Steam. So not complaining.

In order to stand watch or get hired I’ll have to take a Steam course.

It’s all good. I’ll take the Steam course and all the other courses required and enjoy it.

54

As already noted, a steam endorsement has limited utility. You’d be better taking a motor course.

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55

Just another small bit of advice (there’s been a whole lot of good stuff on here for you so listen to them) - when preparing for your USCG exams, please understand that the USCG speaks in a language that is different from normal people. There are many places to get exam prep books either on line or hard copy (maybe hard copy, not sure if they do that any more). You need to prepare how to take a USCG exam. Doesn’t have much to do with what you really know or what reality is - they have to publish the questions - there are thousands of them - you need to be comfortable with the language. In all my time in the Merchant Marine one of the biggest issues former military folks have is with those exams and that USCG lingo the rest of us all know and love. It’s part of the process, is all. Learn their exam lingo and that’s half the battle.

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56

Couldn’t agree more. Even after decades of taking CG exams in the CG, I used Lapware to study for MMC exams, and it was worth every penny.

57

Our world is much different than the navy world. 90% of the ships you potentially will be on do not stand watch. You seem smart enough to pick up the difference very fast, and sound like you will gladly embrace the new ways.

Find a mom-n-pop school that is USCG approved and knock out STCW Basic training, advanced fire fighting, first aid, lifeboatman. The smaller schools will have more class date offerings that will fit your schedule and allow you to finish classes ASAP. Also, chose places that have cheaper hotels (or park your RV on site). Expect to spend $3000-5000 for this phase.

Get the national AE license (the highest you can get). Then get on any ship and start making money.

If you provide the USCG with paperwork that says you have time on a motor vessel, that will greatly help you. I don’t know what number you need, but aim for at least 120days of motor time. Horsepower should not matter.

When it comes time to take the exams, get ahold of the released question banks, and just read through them all. Do not try to think, memorize, or even “study”. The entire evolution is a joke, with many questions being flat out wrong. Just play the game and move forward.

Eventually, unless somehow lucky, you will need to take the OICEW classes. Maybe you can get somebody to listen that your 20+ years of Navy time can count for these entry level officer classes, but don’t plan on that. I don’t know current cost or time, but I heard a shipmate years ago say 3-6 months and $15,000?!? It’s a very worthwhile investment. You’ll make that back in your first month.

58

I appreciate the the info.
Yes it looks like it costs about that
for all of the OICEW.

Looks like I found a nice spot
for training and will cost $600 bucks
for 2 - 3 weeks lodging.
Can’t beat that.

I’ll have a good time with it at the Steam Course for sure. I also certified as a Boiler Inspector and been doing it almost 15 years.

I’ll enjoy the challenge of doing
something new.

You got some great info here and appreciate words of encouragement.

I’m fairly certain that my
cover is blown. Someone will know who I am pretty soon.

Least we can make it a
good thread and I’ll try and add lots of details and updates.

Someone else will come along and read it for sure.

59

Why? Once you test for and are issued 1AE steam go take a motor course and get your 1AE motor.

60

As asked in the post above me, why do you keep blabbing about taking a steam course? You already have steam time…and taking a steam course to get OICEW steam is almost useless.