This has come up in conversation many times. I have sailed with many Masters on ATB’s that I would sail anywhere with but there have been some U/L Masters that have come along that I was worried about leaving the dock with them. As the day of the Wire Boat comes to the end more and more ATB’s are built.
Until you have been on a ATB that has had to break out of the notch you have no idea of what it’s like. IMHO, there is no way of training for this is in a simulator. In my last companies there were men that had been promoted to Master that have NEVER had the chance to work on these boats back before all of the Double Hull Barges with ballast came along. Before that we would tow until the weather started to kick up to about 10’ seas, then get on the wire. We would then get back in the notch when the weather allowed. I really pity anyone that sails with any Master or Mate that does not have this experience.
There has been much posted about Limited vs Unlimited Licenses. Well, I for one would rather sail with a lowly Tug Master with a Limited License that has towing experience than sail with a Master with a UL License that has only worked on conventional ships.
So, what are your feeling on sailing with Masters that have little to no real towing experience?
NOTE to G.Captain, please notice that I have used the WORD Master rather than the word Captain. There used to be a saying in N.Y. Harbor. It was “DO NOT CALL ME CAPTAIN, I CAN READ AND WRITE”. This came about as anyone that worked on a Barge or Scow called themselves Captain.
[QUOTE=Tugs;69936] Until you have been on a ATB that has had to break out of the notch you have no idea of what it’s like. IMHO, there is no way of training for this is in a simulator.[/QUOTE]
In all honestly, when do ATB’s ever leave the notch and make up the tow on the wire? Hell, the ATB tugs I see don’t even appear to have a tow winch on them.
I am not an ATB guy but I have towed barges on the wire so maybe someone who is can enlighten me but how would a big ATB tug can even be able to make up to the barge at sea? Is the tow wire already rigged like an emergency wire with the breakaway clips that hold it along the side of the barge? Is there a bridle and surge gear already prerigged? A big ATB tug doesn’t have a hull to be able to get alongside a barge even appear to be very doable. How would you get men across? Is it possible to even hip up if necessary?
Somebody help an old man who only knows the old ways of hawser towing understand these new fancy fangled gadgets you all are using nowadays.
Btw, who here has read “The Grey Seas Under”? If you tow today but want to read stories about towing in the bad old days you need to read that book. Those men went through hell out there in the winter North Atlantic! We have it so easy it is sickening how soft we all are (your’s truly included)
Most of the purpose built ATBs dont have a winch they have a capstan and a windlass on the stern in case of an emergency break out, also like you said c cap the emergency tow wire is stretched down the side with clips and the related bridles and such. Some of the converted ATBs still have there winches (most Bouchard boats, the old Maritrans boats, and some Rienauer boats) they can tow like normal if it gets bad enough to beed to break out. The big ATBs like the Crowley and US Shipping rigs have no side rubber and no real way to hip up. They would need a normal tug to relieve them of their barge if they couldn’t get back in their notch.
There has been at least 3 instances. Two on west coast, one on east coast. Search in this topic.
I am not an ATB guy but I have towed barges on the wire so maybe someone who is can enlighten me but how would a big ATB tug can even be able to make up to the barge at sea? Is the tow wire already rigged like an emergency wire with the breakaway clips that hold it along the side of the barge? Is there a bridle and surge gear already prerigged? A big ATB tug doesn’t have a hull to be able to get alongside a barge even appear to be very doable. How would you get men across? Is it possible to even hip up if necessary?
Yours is the question of the ages. There is NO nationwide standard as to what constitutes an adequate emergency wire/ hawser connection (or even if it should be connected.) There is no regulation regarding what/how an emergency hawser should be: 1. Led, 2. Connected for breakout. 3. or stowed in a box up on the bow of a barge that is UNmanned, and with fender systems that were NEVER made or intended to come alongside in heavy weather 4. No training or drills to actually go through the motions of putting a barge on the hawser. There are many (and I mean most, well over half) ATB’s that feel they (the Masters) can simply get out of the notch and hook up to the barge at will. I feel these are deluding themselves into thinking that their crew is competent, that they are competent, and the after deck of the boat will be workable to connect. One of my contemporaries is quite vociferous that no one is going to tell him how to be prepared for breakout, and he does NOT want to be tethered to the barge with the hawser, because he is worried about being tripped. My reply is that if it is rough enough to get knocked OUT of the notch, then you can rest assured it will be too crappy to come along side and get the emergency hawser rigged. Never mind the deckhands will be like fish out of water on the back deck that is submerged. Never mind that out of water reference. they will be exactly like fish in the water… underwater.
Somebody help an old man who only knows the old ways of hawser towing understand these new fancy fangled gadgets you all are using nowadays.
Btw, who here has read “The Grey Seas Under”? If you tow today but want to read stories about towing in the bad old days you need to read that book. Those men went through hell out there in the winter North Atlantic! We have it so easy it is sickening how soft we all are (your’s truly included)
Holy crap you’re OLD. Farley Mowat. Now there’s a good set of books. I always think of the ‘Foundation Franklin’ burning up her paneling and furniture to get home when I am having a particularly bad day at work. Thinking how bad my predecessors had it makes me realize how good I have it.
Here is one for your thinking cap. During WWll we lost the Philippines. The Philippines supplied all our Hemp and Sisal. All our lines, hawsers and soft line was… Manilla! Nylon was invented right around the middle of WWll as a stop gap because we had not enough rope to equip the ships!
[QUOTE=cappy208;69949]There has been at least 3 instances. Two on west coast, one on east coast. Search in this topic.
Yours is the question of the ages. There is NO nationwide standard as to what constitutes an adequate emergency wire/ hawser connection (or even if it should be connected.) There is no regulation regarding what/how an emergency hawser should be: 1. Led, 2. Connected for breakout. 3. or stowed in a box up on the bow of a barge that is UNmanned, and with fender systems that were NEVER made or intended to come alongside in heavy weather 4. No training or drills to actually go through the motions of putting a barge on the hawser. There are many (and I mean most, well over half) ATB’s that feel they (the Masters) can simply get out of the notch and hook up to the barge at will. I feel these are deluding themselves into thinking that their crew is competent, that they are competent, and the after deck of the boat will be workable to connect. One of my contemporaries is quite vociferous that no one is going to tell him how to be prepared for breakout, and he does NOT want to be tethered to the barge with the hawser, because he is worried about being tripped. My reply is that if it is rough enough to get knocked OUT of the notch, then you can rest assured it will be too crappy to come along side and get the emergency hawser rigged. Never mind the deckhands will be like fish out of water on the back deck that is submerged. Never mind that out of water reference. they will be exactly like fish in the water… underwater.[/QUOTE]
Are breakout procedures written up and available to the crew, or is it a matter of hand waving? Are there specific sea condition you have to avoid?
Forgive my ignorance, never been on an ATB but I’m curious as to how formal this all is.
On the ATBs I sailed, there were 2 emergency tow hawsers on the barge, one bow and one stern. They were stowed in break-out boxes. The tug had the pick-up line tethered to the stern hawser. If the tug detatched from the barge while underway, the idea was to station-keep until a “real” tug arrived.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;69951]Are breakout procedures written up and available to the crew, or is it a matter of hand waving? Are there specific sea condition you have to avoid?.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=injunear;69953]Breakout proceedures are in the VOM.[/QUOTE]
I would LOVE to see some other companies breakout procedures!
I know at my company it is one paragraph long, and simply states: how to ‘unpin’ by putting the seas on the the head or stern, putting the engines clutch astern, and unpinning with the force upon the pins so when they finally come free you shoot out backwards. Then you procede to stream emergency hawser.
Sort of leaves a little bit to the imagination, Huh?
I think this is actually from Intercon.
There seems to be two trains of thought on this emergency hawser streaming. One is that the tug would simply hang around until seas abate, and it is possible to hook up the hawser, the other is that you should be hooked up so that upon ejection, the tug is already hooked up, and ready to tow. I can just imagine in rough seas, a Tug entering port and ejecting with no hook up calling up the CG and saying the barge is going ashore because… we weren’t hooked up!!! Sign me up for that one.
[QUOTE=Tugs;69936]There has been much posted about Limited vs Unlimited Licenses. Well, I for one would rather sail with a lowly Tug Master with a Limited License that has towing experience than sail with a Master with a UL License that has only worked on conventional ships.
So, what are your feeling on sailing with Masters that have little to no real towing experience?[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure, don’t have any expertise in the matter but based on what I’ve read here I might be a little concerned. It would depend on the boat and the weather forecast.
I think I’d be more inclined to worry sailing in cold waters in the winter then warm waters in the summer.
[QUOTE=Tugs;69936]So, what are your feeling on sailing with Masters that have little to no real towing experience?
QUOTE]
As I’ve said in other threads about this, I slept well with the ATB crews I sailed with. Most were off wire boats. Now there are many with an ATB TOAR that struggle to dock a light tug and several AB/tankermen with no towing experience.
[QUOTE=Tugs;69936]So, what are your feeling on sailing with Masters that have little to no real towing experience?
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=injunear;69958] As I’ve said in other threads about this, I slept well with the ATB crews I sailed with. Most were off wire boats. Now there are many with an ATB TOAR that struggle to dock a light tug and several AB/tankermen with no towing experience.[/QUOTE]
My POV is that having filled in upon several ATBs there is NO continuity regarding the emergency hawser. I was on one that had the emergency hawser trailing line safely wrapped about 5 times around a vent pipe on the quarter. How is the hell is that EVER going to be used?
This has little to none to do with the query of whether an unlimited license would be able to successfully make the transition. But there are SO many ATB’s being operated on a hack and sack basis, with no forethought or planning to there actually being a plan to safely make the transition. Never mind the persons credentials that will be doing it.
One ATB operator I know took the light ATB from La to NYC. He was talking about how it was rolling 45 degrees in 6 to 7 foot seas. How in the hell does any regulatory agency expect a tug operator to even remain in the wheelhouse in worse weather? Never mind the seas on the back deck that the tankerman (who never have done this before) are expected to hook up in these conditions?!
I think the concept of the ATB TOAR will come full circle and bight the USCG in the ass, once one of these uncontrolled unpinnings occurs and people and equipment is damaged.
I’m of the “stay connected” school of emergency hawsers. All that has to happen is retract and back away and wait for the hawser to fetch up. After that has happened it’s a “hold and wait for help” situation. A trip could happen, but I think that’s more likely if you’re trying to do something stupid like trying to get in front of the barge while it’s got headway…
For what it’s worth, the crew has experience on hawser and wire boats but I’m not putting them in harms way on deck 5 levels below. I will be having enough trouble hanging on, much less maneuvering the boat with men on deck.
I would quickly agree that my tug out of the notch in foul weather would be a real bear to deal with. The emergency procedures are fairly short and sweet for us. Get out of the notch, stream the hawser and hang on. I have no magic bullet or any belief that it’ll much more than that. We all know that the likelihood it’ll be necessary to break out in fine weather will never happen, it’ll always be a dark and stormy night.
A breakout for an experienced operator will be uncomfortable, for someone whose never done it on [I]any kind of boat[/I], the worst nightmare you can conceive.
[QUOTE=cappy208;69960]I think the concept of the ATB TOAR will come full circle and bight the USCG in the ass, once one of these uncontrolled unpinnings occurs and people and equipment is damaged.[/QUOTE]
It is the ONLY time they will respond unless industry comes to them first. It is not about knowledge and experience, it is about money and commerce. Possible loss of life, damage ($$$), and loss of life are way down the list.
You all know this.
And it won’t bite (or bight as you put it, yeah I caught it) them in the ass because you can’t take them to court on “theoretical” regulations.