I presently hold a current MMC with a Master- any GT- oceans endorsement and am looking to get a Master of Towing endorsement added to it. I was assigned aboard Military Sealift Command ocean-going tugs (Navajo, Catawba) both as AB and as a Second Mate before the licensing requirements for service aboard towing vessels changed in 2001and still have my old sea service book with the documented service. Does anyone know how I would go about getting this endorsement added to my MMC?
I went through the same thing with the Coast Guard about getting old time credited but I am afraid that after July 2008 (I believe) the grandfathering closed and now a TOAR needs to be done. I got mine only by being lucky enough to have made an application before the grandfathering ended. At first the Coast Guard didn’t give it to me but I when I found they were wrong and I went back, they told me “too late” but with an earlier application dated and stamped by the REC from before the drop dead date they relented and I got it in the end but it was a fight that took about three months to resolve.
I am not fully up on the rules now but can’t you sail as mate on a tug to get your TOAR signed off?
You’ll need to do a TOAR and get 30 days as an “observer” on a tug. You could probably sail as an AB, but you cannot sail as a mate without the towing endorsement. If you can get on with the right company, and with the right captain who happens to be a DE, you can do the 30 days and get the TOAR signed off at the same time. Also, there are places where you can take a short TOAR “course” for under $2,000, either on a simulator or on a tug with a DE. For most people getting the 30 days of observer time is the problem.
Why do you guys insist that the 30 day wonder thing is reality? If he gets on a tug as an Observer/AB he can’t possibly get all he needs for a fully completed TOAR in 30 days unless its pencil-whipped. No self respecting DE would let an observer handle his boat during a critical operation after just a brief introduction. In 30 days, the “observer” would have to handle the boat every time it moved, every operation critical or not. Each situation that must be signed off has to be performed competently before the eyes of the DE. How many times will a repeat scenario occur in 30 days? I don’t see how any TOAR can be properly and honestly accomplished in any period less than a year. The number of skills that need to be demonstrated, the weather conditions under which they must be performed don’t occur in such a limited time frame, How frequently do each of these opportunities arise over the course of a year? Barely enough to honestly sign a man off. Thirty days, nfw. Really, ship assist work is just one thing to be demonstrated as well as restricted visibility operations, bridge transits, towing in heavy weather, pushing, towing alongside, fair tide transits, high wind…etc. This isn’t my first rodeo and I know that thirty days won’t cover a fraction of these scenarios. No disrespect intended for the Unlimited Master seeking to lateral over to towing vessels, but the time to get a towing endorsement is a bit more than just thirty days. Be honest, as 2M on those tugs, how much boat handling did you actually do? How long were you aboard before the old man let you handle the boat for dockings and sailings? How many times did you get to practice before he cut you loose and stopped looking over your shoulder? Would you trust a mate on watch who had a TOAR signed off in 30 days? Really, a 3M fresh out of the academy can get the TOAR pencil whipped as easily as anyone and then report aboard as a qualified Mate, until he does his first job that is…C’mon be honest.
[QUOTE=captbbrucato;76307]Why do you guys insist that the 30 day wonder thing is reality? If he gets on a tug as an Observer/AB he can’t possibly get all he needs for a fully completed TOAR in 30 days unless its pencil-whipped. No self respecting DE would let an observer handle his boat during a critical operation after just a brief introduction. In 30 days, the “observer” would have to handle the boat every time it moved, every operation critical or not. Each situation that must be signed off has to be performed competently before the eyes of the DE. How many times will a repeat scenario occur in 30 days? I don’t see how any TOAR can be properly and honestly accomplished in any period less than a year. The number of skills that need to be demonstrated, the weather conditions under which they must be performed don’t occur in such a limited time frame, How frequently do each of these opportunities arise over the course of a year? Barely enough to honestly sign a man off. Thirty days, nfw. Really, ship assist work is just one thing to be demonstrated as well as restricted visibility operations, bridge transits, towing in heavy weather, pushing, towing alongside, fair tide transits, high wind…etc. This isn’t my first rodeo and I know that thirty days won’t cover a fraction of these scenarios. No disrespect intended for the Unlimited Master seeking to lateral over to towing vessels, but the time to get a towing endorsement is a bit more than just thirty days. Be honest, as 2M on those tugs, how much boat handling did you actually do? How long were you aboard before the old man let you handle the boat for dockings and sailings? How many times did you get to practice before he cut you loose and stopped looking over your shoulder? Would you trust a mate on watch who had a TOAR signed off in 30 days? Really, a 3M fresh out of the academy can get the TOAR pencil whipped as easily as anyone and then report aboard as a qualified Mate, until he does his first job that is…C’mon be honest.[/QUOTE]
REPLY I agree with you — as to what should be required for a towing endorsement — at least one year of hands on training — training, not just seatime onboard. Unfortunately, the USCG does not agree with us. The reality is that the USCG allows TOAR to be completed in less than 30 days, and the USCG only requires 30 days of “observer” time on a tug — to get the endorsement. The concept of TOAR is good, but the implementation is pathetic. We also agree that it takes a lot more than a towing endorsement to make a competent tug operator. We probably also agree that the only way to actually develop tug and barge handing skills is by doing it hands on. In much of the US tug industry a guy doesn’t get much hands on experience, or develop competence, until he already has the license.
How many times have you seen some tug company (usually a small company) assume that an unlimited master must be highly qualified, only to learn the hard way that the unlimited master was hopelessly unqualified to run a tug after he causes a lot of damage?
Gonna give KCapt a severe complex.
OK KCapt. Here’ s the dope.
1.You need evidence of 30 days aboard a tug.
2.You need to complete a TOAR.
That’s it.
You only need to HOLD the evidence and completed TOAR with you in case of boarding.
Next time you renew you simply submit the proof and a sea service letter and they will actually endorse you. However, some employers may not hire you until it is actually on the MMC.
I am not sure if your ‘old seatime’ would count since the “TOAR” program wasn’t around then. So how could you have been working on the TOAR specific requirements when they hadn’t been written yet??
I will leave Capt B’s comments alone, since they are true and stand on their own merits. But this should answer most of your Q’s.
Ok, so I said I’d leave it alone…
It’s reality because… It’s the law. thanks to AWO, Kirby, and heavy political action by Companies to avoid the ‘one year of required training’ and they watered it down to 30 days. Bitter? No, just a realist at how the system works. Dipshits in charge, being led by the clueless, doing the unimaginable with so much panache’ they actually think they are doing it well!
[I]Ok, so I said I’d leave it alone…
It’s reality because… It’s the law. thanks to AWO, Kirby, and heavy political action by Companies to avoid the ‘one year of required training’ and they watered it down to 30 days. Bitter? No, just a realist at how the system works. Dipshits in charge, being led by the clueless, doing the unimaginable with so much panache’ they actually think they are doing it well![/I]
Yes it is.
I’ve been beating on this particular drum for a long time.
The only thing that stands in the way of the unqualified poser is the TOAR, honestly earned and signed off. D.E.'s [I]know[/I] it will take more than 30 days. If a D.E. is willing to sign off, we have his word (and only his word) that the candidate has satisfied the requirements, ALL OF THEM under supervision. After that we as supervisors must “put a fine edge” on the operator and help him/her refine the skill-sets.
A completed TOAR is the minimum and it’s a good thing. It’s proof that the one claiming the back-watch is at the very least minimally qualified and not going to kill everyone the first time he/she takes the helm on a working tug/towboat. Tugboats have fenders because its a contact sport, we expect a few bumps here and there. We also expect the watchstander to [B]not kill us[/B] while we sleep.
[QUOTE=captbbrucato;76628][I]Ok, so I said I’d leave it alone…
It’s reality because… It’s the law. thanks to AWO, Kirby, and heavy political action by Companies to avoid the ‘one year of required training’ and they watered it down to 30 days. Bitter? No, just a realist at how the system works. Dipshits in charge, being led by the clueless, doing the unimaginable with so much panache’ they actually think they are doing it well![/I]
Yes it is.
I’ve been beating on this particular drum for a long time.
The only thing that stands in the way of the unqualified poser is the TOAR, honestly earned and signed off. D.E.'s [I]know[/I] it will take more than 30 days. If a D.E. is willing to sign off, we have his word (and only his word) that the candidate has satisfied the requirements, ALL OF THEM under supervision. After that we as supervisors must “put a fine edge” on the operator and help him/her refine the skill-sets.
A completed TOAR is the minimum and it’s a good thing. It’s proof that the one claiming the back-watch is at the very least minimally qualified and not going to kill everyone the first time he/she takes the helm on a working tug/towboat. Tugboats have fenders because its a contact sport, we expect a few bumps here and there. We also expect the watchstander to [B]not kill us[/B] while we sleep.[/QUOTE]
Is it reasonable to assume/expect that a dilgent Captain would also review the mariner’s TOAR and the DE(s) who signed it to form preliminary assumptions about the qualifications of the guy (i.e. a DE personally known to the Captain with a reputation for good, competent and ethical training is viewed as more credible than a DE with a lesser reputation and/or a DE that is unknown to the Captain)?
I had a guy sail as my mate with an unlimited master ticket. He could hardly get away from the dock. He slammed the boat a/s the ship as well. Needless to say he didn’t come back.