Master not more than 3000 gt upgrade to master more than 3000 (unlimited )

Professional Mariner Forum
61

[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138757]I understand JDCavo’s input and it is appreciated. His contribution to this forum is invaluable. It’s also obvious that the poster was asking about the national license and the STCW endorsement, and the USCG was clearly answering that question. He even asked about “approval to test”, which is what you do for a national endorsement through the USCG! As far as wishing someone a denial, God help you man you are the devil incarnate! I have known plenty of guys who got their licenses by following different paths other than mine, saving them time, money, and effort, and I only wish them well. Of course I’m jealous, but they did nothing wrong!!! When you upgraded, I’m sure you took the fastest and easiest approach possible, as would any human being.[/QUOTE]

if these men followed a path that didn’t end around the established system then fine. All seatime is different and it was much easier in years past to use seatime from other types of vessels to upgrade a UL license. There was even a time that a local REC could make their own determinations and grant tonnage upgrades but those days are over now that there are the STCW '95 rules. Everything changes when they were implemented and those who came after had a harder road to hoe that those who started before. That is just the changing dynamics of obtaining and upgrading a license. nothing more and nothing less…

[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138757]After being licensed, a sailor still needs to work his/her way up in each unique industry they choose to pursue, and any company worth their salt will not hire someone directly into a supervisory position aboard a vessel they are not familiar with. The same goes for sailors that take the jobs. If I got a masters UL through this path, I would be happy to take a job as third mate and junior DPO if I decided to give drilling a try, so I could take the time needed to learn the operations of a drill ship/rig, a little humble pie is good for everyone! But wishing people ill, hoping they have to sacrifice more money, effort, time away from family and lost years of potential higher income to provide for those families just because you had to work harder for something is just psychotic, you twisted f@@k, and I wish the same misfortune to you and your family too.[/QUOTE]

as I stated before there are two camps

you are in the red camp and I am in the blue…we each see this matter differently but I have my own vested interest that the path to UL master not become subverted to make yet more holders of that license chasing a finite number of positions which are already fewer that those which hold the UL master license out there (3000 total?) obtained though the mandated CFR path. Hell you make top $$$ with an OSV 6000gt which I am on record as saying if a farce requiring minimal effort to obtain…what is your great drive to become a UL master? Obviously it is drillships. That is the only place where you make more $$$ than a large OSV without spending years sucking a big union Johnson.

Sorry but I don’t want you there without having climbed the ladder to get there. My feelings towards drillship mates getting unrestricted UL ocean master without having been on anything other than a drillship is a whole other matter which has been discussed here and as far as I am concerned, they too are getting away with gaming the system to their benefit. How a mariner can be considered qualified to command ANY vessel on the earth without actually sailing over the earth is another travesty which I hope someday to be ended!

btw, it is twisted [B][I][U]FUCK[/U][/I][/B]. Can’t you even spell properly?

62

[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138758]Wow, C. Captain is waiting on me, I feel so honored![/QUOTE]

rebutt me successfully and you will be able to claim an honor but till then, you just want something you are not entitled to!

63

Ok, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then.

You and I and the rest of this community also know that If I didn’t rebutt successfully, you never would have responded in the first place!

By the way, please forgive me and my “misspelling”…FUCK YOU!

Do you feel better now?

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[QUOTE=c.captain;138761]harder road to hoe [/QUOTE]

OK…if we’re getting picky. It’s ROW TO HOE…

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[QUOTE=z-drive;138750]Except the rules define “chief mate” as the second in command. I am still the chief mate by definition per the CG on a tug with two officers.

“The FR defines chief mate as the deck officer next in rank to the master and upon whom the command of the vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master.”

“For Officer endorsements for Offshore Supply Vessels (OSVs). “Chief Mate” is defined in 46 CFR 10.107 as “the deck officer next in rank to the master and upon whom the command of the vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master.” In the event that a vessel’s Certificate of Inspection does not require that a licensed chief mate be assigned, service credit will be granted to the officer onboard who serves the chief mate’s function. In regard to the STCW endorsement, the mariner must also meet the requirements for master as identified in the regulations (46 CFR 11.305 or 11.311 as applicable).”

How’s he guy “gaming” the system if he complies with their requirements? Don’t hate the player, hate the game![/QUOTE]

You’re right, the the game is to be hated. It is a joke.

I wish CC were 100% right, but alas, he is not. These exact same questions were asked and answered (with the exact same NMC Q/A sessions) months ago on here.

It does make getting a Master’s license worth a lot less these days. And I’m sure there is an equivalent slap in the face path to Chief Engineer.

OSV Florida, you want to earn your Master’s license… go get a Chief Mate’s License and get a Chief Mate job on a ship. I don’t care if it’s Maersk Lines or TransAtlantic Lines.

Stand bridge watches, actively manage 2 mates and 6 ABs, put up with droves of 3rd world longshoremen and stevedores, work endless hours with little or no notice in port (that’s right, no hanging out on the bridge after tie-up), ballast and inspect tanks (repeatedly), handle all aspects of cargo (be they bulk or liquid), sign DOIs, be responsible for planning all fire and boat drills and safety training, the list goes on…

That’s how you earn your Master’s license.

Anything else is bullshit…

66

well pardon me all to FUCK!

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[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138763]Ok, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then.

You and I and the rest of this community also know that If I didn’t rebutt successfully, you never would have responded in the first place![/quote]

oh no sir, to rebut me successfully you must present an argument that I cannot answer back with the facts as I know them…I present factual replies in contradiction to your theories and you must prove my facts to be not applicable or just wrong to the argument at hand. It is called a debate.

By the way, please forgive me and my “misspelling”…FUCK YOU!

Do you feel better now?

I am so relieved to find out you are not as stoopid as I first thought…

      • Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;138766]You’re right, the the game is to be hated. It is a joke.

I wish CC were 100% right, but alas, he is not. These exact same questions were asked and answered (with the exact same NMC Q/A sessions) months ago on here.

It does make getting a Master’s license worth a lot less these days. And I’m sure there is an equivalent slap in the face path to Chief Engineer.[/quote]

well this is just dandy…might as well just give everybody a fucking UL master’s license right from the gitgo…shit every swinging dick in Fourchon is already a “Captain” for Christ’s sake so why not?

OSV Florida, you want to earn your Master’s license… go get a Chief Mate’s License and get a Chief Mate job on a ship. I don’t care if it’s Maersk Lines or TransAtlantic Lines.

Stand bridge watches, actively manage 2 mates and 6 ABs, put up with droves of 3rd world longshoremen and stevedores, work endless hours with little or no notice in port (that’s right, no hanging out on the bridge after tie-up), ballast and inspect tanks (repeatedly), handle all aspects of cargo (be they bulk or liquid), sign DOIs, be responsible for planning all fire and boat drills and safety training, the list goes on…

That’s how you earn your Master’s license.

Anything else is bullshit…

hear, hear sir…perfectly stated

67

It is so funny how I do not make assumptions as to what experience you may or may not have, and yet you make assumptions as to what my experience is! I have sailed on way more than just OSVs during my life, and I have been working on the water in one respect or another for 25 years, and I have already tested four times to get where I am at today. I have no problem getting my Chief Mate and sailing on that first, I already stated that everyone needs to be humble in order to advance. But let’s be honest, it’s really not reasonable to ask someone with an unrestricted 3000 Master Oceans license and Master OSV 6000 Oceans with years of service as master and chief mate and 25+ years experience as a licensed master to drop back to third mate and start another 5+ year licensing program just because they didn’t start out in the UL world. I believe in crossovers, they serve a purpose, but they should not be given away. I fully expect to have take every class that the UL guys have to take, demonstrate the same USCG and STCW required competency through real world assessments, and I expect to have to prove the total amount of sea time and undergo the same exams to reach the top, no exceptions or waivers. But to force 3rd mate through Chief Mate again serves no purpose. Likewise, I believe in the crossover from UL mates licenses to LT masters for guys who have NEVER sailed a single day as master, because they have already put in enough time and testing to get the license; it’s then up to the good judgement of them and their employers to sail them as master when they are ready. Should they be forced to start over and pursue a limited tonnage license scheme from scratch, absolutely not! My flag is actually in both camps, everyone deserves a chance!

68

your own username is a bit of a giveaway. where else have you worked, in what positions and for how long? How many years in the GoM then? I think you are likely a GoM lifer and see a glorious shining world on those huge new drillships which you want to get to live in along with every other Joe Boob in the Gulf… You just think you found your “free lunch” path to get there…

But let’s be honest, it’s really not reasonable to ask someone with an unrestricted 3000 Master Oceans license and Master OSV 6000 Oceans with years of service as master and chief mate and 25+ years experience as a licensed master to drop back to third mate and start another 5+ year licensing program just because they didn’t start out in the UL world.

sorry but it is totally reasonable to all those who have got the seatime, paid for the courses, got the assessments and took the exams. You are just bitter as hell you would have to go down to a low level and start going up again but your own earlier statement says you would take the low level position. “I would be happy to take a job as third mate and junior DPO” was the biggest giveaway yet! If that is all you seek, just get the goddamned 3rd mate’s ticket already but you want much, much more but don’t want to work for it! You think all you have done is good enough to go higher faster and you might be fully capable to do that but you need to follow the regulations as onerous and difficult as they might be. I have taken low level positions after having gotten my UL master in order to get my DP time and had to suck it up working for cretins. I loathed every minute of it but did it to further my career because I knew I needed to.

Now if there is a legal backdoor to UL master which is contrary to what JDCavo says or I can read then fine take it…it may end up being legal but it will still be bullshit!

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[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138768]…I have no problem getting my Chief Mate and sailing on that first, I already stated that everyone needs to be humble in order to advance. But let’s be honest, it’s really not reasonable to ask someone with an unrestricted 3000 Master Oceans license and Master OSV 6000 Oceans with years of service as master and chief mate and 25+ years experience as a licensed master to drop back to third mate and start another 5+ year licensing program just because they didn’t start out in the UL world. I believe in crossovers, they serve a purpose, but they should not be given away. I fully expect to have take every class that the UL guys have to take, demonstrate the same USCG and STCW required competency through real world assessments, and I expect to have to prove the total amount of sea time and undergo the same exams to reach the top, no exceptions or waivers. But to force 3rd mate through Chief Mate again serves no purpose. Likewise, I believe in the crossover from UL mates licenses to LT masters for guys who have NEVER sailed a single day as master, because they have already put in enough time and testing to get the license; it’s then up to the good judgement of them and their employers to sail them as master when they are ready. Should they be forced to start over and pursue a limited tonnage license scheme from scratch, absolutely not! My flag is actually in both camps, everyone deserves a chance![/QUOTE]

OSV-Florida, I agree with you. Unfortunately, the Coast Guard has no legitimate explanation as to why they allow 2nd Mate UL to cross over to 1600grt Master and not vice versa. In my humble opinion, it should work both ways. Conversely, I believe your interpretation of the FR to be incorrect. The FR does not allow a mariner serving in the “Capacity” of “Chief Mate” on OSV’s to be eligible for the National UL Master. I have read the cfrs, frequently asked questions, numerous responses, etc. My interpretation: The words “Chief Mate” are being taken out of context in the FAQ that was posted, and in numerous posts on this thread. Yes, the position of Chief Mate is defined in the cfr as the “deck officer next in rank to the Master”. However, when the requirements for National Master UL refer to “Chief Mate”, it is referring to a licensed (National) Chief Mate UL. Also, I believe the CG response in the FAQ you are referring to (“Yes, you may use documented service as chief mate towards the Master unlimited endorsement”) was actually referring to the stcw Master > 3000gt, which is commonly incorrectly called “Master UL”. There is no “Master UL” for stcw, it is “Master 3000 or More (Management Level)”. I think the CG responder thought the mariners question was in regards to the stcw pathway (afterall, it is posted in stcw faq’s), even though said mariner mentions “test for a Master UL”, which should of triggered the CG responder to clarify between the two.

With all this said, I do wish you luck in submitting your application and encourage you to do so. Unfortunately, the CG doesn’t provide adequate guidance for individual mariners until money is exchanged and an application is submitted. Please let us know how it works out. In the mean time I will be preparing to test (backwards) for my 3rd Mate UL to start the clock for the 3rd to Master UL gauntlet.

On a better note, one good thing the final rule does provide for the 1600/Large OSV Master’s is the path to stcw Master > 3000 GT. If you take this path now, and choose to go the UL route later, it will prevent you from having to take the additional classes that will be required at that time.

Disclaimer: Just my 2 cents, not word of God…lol

70

You are actually pretty close on much of what you said in this last post, aside from your assumptions about my experience, which is all that you are doing, assuming, which is waaaay off!

So just to be clear, if you were in my position and the regs said that you could crossover to UL master and skip 3rd/2nd/CM, you would say, “No, that is way too easy, I insist on it taking longer and making it harder on myself, in fact there’s a route listed here that is twice as hard, expensive, and three times longer, I’ll take that one instead…”? That is in effect what you are saying, so that is what you would do, right??? If you answer “Yes”, then you win the award for biggest jackass ever, though most users on here would argue you already have that one in the bag!

I may very well get my 3rd and work from there if that is the path I must follow, but I will not intentionally look for the harder path to get to the same goal, that’s just retarded! If the USCG and STCW regs say that it is ok to pursue this route, that’s absolutely what I’m fucking doing. I am done with you, go piss vinegar somewhere else.

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[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138777]I am done with you, go piss vinegar somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

HaHa…I just love to poke my stick at little men like you. Thanks for the enjoyable thrust and parry match.

something makes me think however that we are not done fencing just yet anyway…

72

and how is that exactly?

So just to be clear, if you were in my position and the regs said that you could crossover to UL master and skip 3rd/2nd/CM, you would say, “No, that is way too easy, I insist on it taking longer and making it harder on myself, in fact there’s a route listed here that is twice as hard, expensive, and three times longer, I’ll take that one instead…”? That is in effect what you are saying, so that is what you would do, right??? If you answer “Yes”, then you win the award for biggest jackass ever, though most users on here would argue you already have that one in the bag!

but the regulations don’t say you can…JDCavo doesn’t say you can…only you think you can

I may very well get my 3rd and work from there if that is the path I must follow, but I will not intentionally look for the harder path to get to the same goal, that’s just retarded!

that is exactly what you are going to have to do per 46CFR and the USCG…better get used to the idea

If the USCG and STCW regs say that it is ok to pursue this route, that’s absolutely what I’m fucking doing.

if they let you, who am I to stop you from getting the license although I agree with johnny canal that getting it back door is “bullshit” I just don’t believe they will in the end…

I am done with you, go piss vinegar somewhere else.

HaHa…I just love to poke my stick at little men like you. Thanks for the enjoyable thrust and parry match.

something makes me think however that we are not done fencing just yet anyway…

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Oh we are done alright, at least as far as this topic is concerned…but I am sure that our paths, pens, swords, and pointed sticks will cross again in this endless game of “camps”…

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[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138782]Oh we are done alright, at least as far as this topic is concerned…but I am sure that our paths, pens, swords, and pointed sticks will cross again in this endless game of “camps”…[/QUOTE]

why don’t we just make it a game of forts instead and I’ve got the fort with the heaviest battery…

kaboom

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I hope all this works out for you guys. If everyone has an UL master then the drillships will have 2nd, 3rd and 4th captains also. This is gonna be so cool. I know how c.captain feels. I used to get pissed when I’d train a brand new 3rd and after a year he’d apply for his 2nd and the CG would hand him a chief limited oceans. The guy still has to prove himself even if he has the license. He needs to take a deep breath and realize he’s full of shit insisting he would take the harder route.

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[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138768]It is so funny how I do not make assumptions as to what experience you may or may not have, and yet you make assumptions as to what my experience is! I have sailed on way more than just OSVs during my life, and I have been working on the water in one respect or another for 25 years, and I have already tested four times to get where I am at today. I have no problem getting my Chief Mate and sailing on that first, I already stated that everyone needs to be humble in order to advance. But let’s be honest, it’s really not reasonable to ask someone with an unrestricted 3000 Master Oceans license and Master OSV 6000 Oceans with years of service as master and chief mate and 25+ years experience as a licensed master to drop back to third mate and start another 5+ year licensing program just because they didn’t start out in the UL world. I believe in crossovers, they serve a purpose, but they should not be given away. I fully expect to have take every class that the UL guys have to take, demonstrate the same USCG and STCW required competency through real world assessments, and I expect to have to prove the total amount of sea time and undergo the same exams to reach the top, no exceptions or waivers. But to force 3rd mate through Chief Mate again serves no purpose. Likewise, I believe in the crossover from UL mates licenses to LT masters for guys who have NEVER sailed a single day as master, because they have already put in enough time and testing to get the license; it’s then up to the good judgement of them and their employers to sail them as master when they are ready. Should they be forced to start over and pursue a limited tonnage license scheme from scratch, absolutely not! My flag is actually in both camps, everyone deserves a chance![/QUOTE]

you make it sound like you’ve been sailing Master (and make no mistake, the use of that term implies Master of a ship, NOT anything else) for 25+ years. That would make you at least 55, as it virtually unheard of to make permanent ship’s master before 30 if not 35.

IF that is the case, and I say IF b/c your own timeline and description of work positions is full of holes (which is it? worked the water in one form or another over 25 years or sailed as ship’s master for 25 + yrs or sailed “c/m” on OSVs while holding this grandiose “unrestricted 3000 Master Oceans license and Master OSV 6000 Oceans” license for 25+ yrs) and has become impossible to keep track of, then you should have taken at a bare minimum a C/M test years ago, if not decades ago. I’m not sure whether you are Methuselah or Yoda at this point.

In all this time you have serving as C/M with your boat company, how many USCG discharges do you have signed by the vessel master stating your rating/position as C/M? did you get the original and he mailed the carbon to the USCG? how many discharges do you have for yourself signed by yourself as Master where you kept the original and sent the carbon to the USCG? and the same goes for the discharges you made out and then sent in for the crew?

If you really wanted an Unlimited USCG Master’s you would have gotten it eons ago, or at least before the great flood.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything or take any tests… it’s just that now it’s easy to get and you want it. Just like so many others…

It’s indicative of an industry full of people calling themselves Captain. I’ve got my UL Master, had it for a quite a while, but you won’t hear me calling myself an XX yrs licensed you know what, because I’m not the Captain. I won’t let anybody call me captain on the boat because I find the use of the term disrespectful. But yet I’m surrounded by boobs with a license who see no problem wearing monogrammed polo and khaki shirts that say Capt. this and that. I can certainly tell you one arena in which that would be dealt with very swiftly.

I can’t imagine where I work now is any different than the other OSV companies, but there is at least one clown mate running around the fleet telling new hire mates (both hawsepipers and recent academy grads) that boat XYZ doesn’t really have a captain because the 2 guys assigned to the vessel as master are working even time. This kind of insanity only exists in the bayou.

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[QUOTE=OSV-Florida;138757] Any company worth their salt will not hire someone directly into a supervisory position aboard a vessel they are not familiar with. The same goes for sailors that take the jobs. If I got a masters UL through this path, I would be happy to take a job as third mate and junior DPO if I decided to give drilling a try, so I could take the time needed to learn the operations of a drill ship/rig, a little humble pie is good for everyone! But wishing people ill, hoping they have to sacrifice more money, effort, time away from family and lost years of potential higher income to provide for those families just because you had to work harder for something is just psychotic, you twisted f@@k, and I wish the same misfortune to you and your family too.[/QUOTE]

I get the impression you’ve never heard of a pier head jump. If you think a 1AE or C/M (or some pseudo equivalent on a lesser vessel) job wouldn’t get filled with an unproven guy who had no same class vessel experience by even the best of shipping companies as well as the best of boat operators… you should just get offline and go back to your cushy casino boat master’s job supervising cocktail waitresses in your concrete lagoon in Vicksburg or Bossier City or wherever you’re writing from.

All of aspects of this industry have opportunities for those are willing to take them, even the most unprepared can rise to the top if they so choose.

You go earn your Master’s the same way CC and I did, then I wish you all the best in that endeavor.

You attempt to earn it the bullshit, candy ass way you are proposing, then I too wish you nothing but expensive, useless classes, miles of WV red tape and ultimately a long awaited, but much unexpected DENIAL.

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I may not like you, but that was funny as shit, touché sir!

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[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;138789]You go earn your Master’s the same way CC and I did, then I wish you all the best in that endeavor.[/QUOTE]

Johnny…I believe our work is done here for today. You have my gratitude for all your assistance.

you will go far young man…

signed.
the old man

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[QUOTE=c.captain;138791]Johnny…I believe our work is done here for today. You have my gratitude for all your assistance.

you will go far young man…

signed.
the old man[/QUOTE]

NOT SO FAST !!!

you haven’t seen my reply to your post in the WSF thread you started.

but anyway, this forum needs a little bleach once in a while to distinguish the terds from the brown water.

besides, WTF does it matter anyway? next year OSV Florida will probably be my “Captain” on some too large for Fourchon 6001 ITC OSV with his newly issued UL chairman mao book that he earned with sea time, Skoal points, and Camel Cash.

no winners here…