46 CFR 11.305(d) if I understand that a master NMT 3000gt can upgrade to master more than 3000 (unlimited) with 180 days as master using his NMT master 3000gt. Also complete any training not already met or assessments.
is this making it easy for limited tonnage guys to progress to master unlimited without being a unlimited mate first? Would you just need to sit for the unlimited master exam or is there a separate exam from upgrading from master 3000gt to master over 3000gt?
Thanks,
[QUOTE=coldcreepin;137928]46 CFR 11.305(d) if I understand that a master NMT 3000gt can upgrade to master more than 3000 (unlimited) with 180 days as master using his NMT master 3000gt. Also complete any training not already met or assessments. is this making it easy for limited tonnage guys to progress to master unlimited without being a unlimited mate first? Would you just need to sit for the unlimited master exam or is there a separate exam from upgrading from master 3000gt to master over 3000gt? Thanks,[/QUOTE]Pretty sure you have to get CM license and work at least 180 days in qualified / approved capacity as CM. any other days are counted as 1 for every 2 worked while holding CM license on qualifying vessel.
[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;137936]Pretty sure you have to get CM license and work at least 180 days in qualified / approved capacity as CM. any other days are counted as 1 for every 2 worked while holding CM license on qualifying vessel.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure you should read the NVIC before you start telling everyone that you are pretty sure.
§11.305 Radar-Observer certificates and qualifying courses
How does Radar have anything to do with skipping from a 500GT Master to Unlimited Tonnage? Maybe you meant another CFR?
[QUOTE=dgillum214;137943]§11.305 Radar-Observer certificates and qualifying courses
How does Radar have anything to do with skipping from a 500GT Master to Unlimited Tonnage? Maybe you meant another CFR?[/QUOTE]
It is truly amazing how many comment on what they haven’t read. Maybe you meant another thread?
46 cfr 11.305 (D) feel free to read the right cfr before you start asking why radar would have anything to do with it. (D) I never said anything about 500GT.
Here is what I am referring to :
(d) Seafarers holding an STCW endorsement as masters of vessels of 500 GT or more and less than 3,000 GT, in accordance with §11.311 of this subpart, are eligible to apply for the endorsement as master on vessels of 3,000 GT or more upon completion of 6 months of sea service, under the authority of the endorsement, and must complete any items in paragraphs (a)(2) and (a)(3) of this section not previously satisfied.
(A 2-3) regarding training required :
(2) Provide evidence of meeting the standard of competence specified in Section A-II/2 of the STCW Code (incorporated by reference, see §11.102 of this part); and
(3) Provide evidence of having satisfactorily completed approved training in the following subject areas:
(i) Advanced shiphandling.
(ii) Advanced stability.
(iii) Advanced meteorology.
(iv) Leadership and managerial skills.
(v) Search and rescue.
(vi) ARPA, if serving on a vessel with this equipment.
(vii) ECDIS, if serving on a vessel with this equipment.
(viii) GMDSS, if serving on a vessel with this equipment.
(ix) Management of medical care.
Thanks ,
I think you are confusing STCW with National License. That might allow you to hold an STCW cert for U/L Master, but you will still have to satisfy the USCGs requirements for your license (National) to be able to run U/L.
Hopefully, one of the licensing experts will clarify this for us.
[QUOTE=txwooley;137949]I think you are confusing STCW with National License. That might allow you to hold an STCW cert for U/L Master, but you will still have to satisfy the USCGs requirements for your license (National) to be able to run U/L.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure you can check the National cross over requirements and they don’t have anything the STCW doesn’t have. The National is easier by a long shot. Gonna be unlimited masters all up in da bayou soon dood.
[QUOTE=coldcreepin;137928]46 CFR 11.305(d) if I understand that a master NMT 3000gt can upgrade to master more than 3000 (unlimited) with 180 days as master using his NMT master 3000gt. Also complete any training not already met or assessments.
is this making it easy for limited tonnage guys to progress to master unlimited without being a unlimited mate first? Would you just need to sit for the unlimited master exam or is there a separate exam from upgrading from master 3000gt to master over 3000gt?
Thanks,[/QUOTE]
Not really. The requirements for the LICENSE /of Master have not changed, and you have to hold a corresponding license to get an STCW endorsement. So this doesn’t change the way to get the license for Master Unlimited.
For the STCW endorsement for Master for 3,000 GT orMore, the corresponding licenses are only Master Unlimited, and Master OSV that has a tonnage of over 3,000 GT. The new provision you mention is to provide a way for the mariner with a license as Master OSV for over 3000 GT to get the appropriate STCW endorsement, nothing more.
[QUOTE=txwooley;137949]I think you are confusing STCW with National License. That might allow you to hold an STCW cert for U/L Master, but you will still have to satisfy the USCGs requirements for your license (National) to be able to run U/L.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
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Thanks for the reply Mr. Cavo, even if it isn’t what any of us wanted to hear.
I’m very thankful the G captain forum exists and I’ve learned a lot from reading posts here.
I hope my post encourages logical discussion of how the actual upgrade process will play out and that mariners will write about their experience trying to upgrade.
Here is the checklist called “STCW II/2-MASTER 3000 GT OR MORE
MANAGEMENT LEVEL § 11.305” so that you can read it yourself before commenting.
http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/pdfs/mcp_fm_nmc5_60_web.pdf?list2=%2Fnmc%2Fchecklists%2Fpdfs%2Fmcp_fm_nmc5_60_web.pdf&B1=GO!
Here is the 204 page NVIC describing it all in detail.
http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/regulations/NVIC/NVIC_2014/nvic_10-14_master_and_chief_mate_3000_gt_or_more-signed_28APR14.pdf
I understand Mr. Cavo’s simplification of the upgrade process but to me it seems more complicated than that. The old Master “Unlimited” now seems to be called Master 3000 GT or more according to the checklist there is a route to upgrade directly from “Master less than 3000 GT” to “Master 3000 GT or more”
Here it is verbatim:
"If holding STCW as Master of 500 GT or more and less than 3000 GT, IAW
11.311, are eligible to apply for this endorsement upon:
1.To me 180 days of sea service means 180 days sailing while holding Master less than 3000 GT. Will the NMC interpret this in some strict way like “[B]under the authority[/B]” meaning you have to be sailing as master for all the sea service?
2. This makes no sense to me because if you already hold Master less than 3000 GT haven’t you already had to meet STCW A-II/2?
Sorry I hit post before I finished. Continued.
Advanced Shiphandling 11.305
Advanced Stability 11.305
Advanced Meteorology 11.305
Leadership and Management Skills 11.305
Search and Rescue 11.305
Management of Medical Care 11.305
In points 2. and 3. does “[B](not previously completed)[/B]” actually mean “if not previously completed”?
In general is it going to be possible to upgrade from STCW A-II/2 Master 3000 GT or less near coastal to STCW A-II/2 Master 3000 GT or more near coastal?
I know that the new license will be issued with a tonnage limitation until the mariner gains the necessary sea time on vessels of appropriate tonnage. This is all spelled out in the NVIC. Minimum tonnage limitation from memory is 2000 GRT. I wonder if the USCG will come up with an ITC equivalent for this tonnage so that Masters with tonnage limitation on their 3000 GT or more license can work on vessels with ITC only measurements.
Has anyone submitted an application to upgrade and heard back from the NMC or better yet gone through the whole upgrade process?
Thanks for your responses!
[QUOTE=zacharyn;138287]I’m very thankful the G captain forum exists and I’ve learned a lot from reading posts here.
I hope my post encourages logical discussion of how the actual upgrade process will play out and that mariners will write about their experience trying to upgrade.
Here is the checklist called “STCW II/2-MASTER 3000 GT OR MORE
MANAGEMENT LEVEL § 11.305” so that you can read it yourself before commenting.
http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/pdfs/mcp_fm_nmc5_60_web.pdf?list2=%2Fnmc%2Fchecklists%2Fpdfs%2Fmcp_fm_nmc5_60_web.pdf&B1=GO!
Here is the 204 page NVIC describing it all in detail.
http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/regulations/NVIC/NVIC_2014/nvic_10-14_master_and_chief_mate_3000_gt_or_more-signed_28APR14.pdf
I understand Mr. Cavo’s simplification of the upgrade process but to me it seems more complicated than that. The old Master “Unlimited” now seems to be called Master 3000 GT or more according to the checklist there is a route to upgrade directly from “Master less than 3000 GT” to “Master 3000 GT or more”
Here it is verbatim:
"If holding STCW as Master of 500 GT or more and less than 3000 GT, IAW
11.311, are eligible to apply for this endorsement upon:
1.To me 180 days of sea service means 180 days sailing while holding Master less than 3000 GT. Will the NMC interpret this in some strict way like “[B]under the authority[/B]” meaning you have to be sailing as master for all the sea service?
2. This makes no sense to me because if you already hold Master less than 3000 GT haven’t you already had to meet STCW A-II/2?[/QUOTE]
You have ignored 46 CFR 11.201(a) which states, in relevant part:
[I]…An applicant for any STCW endorsement must hold the appropriate national endorsement unless otherwise specified.[/I]
Obviously, the appropriate national endorsement is exactly what the title of the STCW endorsement indicates, one for Master that authorizes service on vessels of 3,000 GT (or 1,600 GRT) or more. There are only two of those, Master of Self-Propelled Vessels of Unlimited Tonnage (a.k.a. “Master Unlimited”), and Master (OSV) endorsed for a tonnage of at least 3,000 GT and/or 1,600 GRT. As I noted previously, the requirements for the national endorsement of in 46 CFR 11.404 have not changed. So again, this regulation does not provide a new way to get Master Unlimited. All it adds is a path for a Master for OSVs of 3,000 GT or more to get the corresponding STCW endorsement.
For an example of “unless otherwise speified” as used in 46 CFR 11.201(a), see 46 CFR 11.337(d).
[QUOTE=zacharyn;138287] The old Master “Unlimited” now seems to be called Master 3000 GT or more according to the checklist there is a route to upgrade directly from “Master less than 3000 GT” to “Master 3000 GT or more”[/QUOTE]
You are confusing the STCW endorsement with the national endorsement (license). The title of the national endorsement has changed, but not as you suggest. It has changed from [I]Master of Steam and Motor Vessels of Any Gross Tons[/I] to [I]Master of Self-Propelled Vessels of Unlimited Tonnage[/I]. The title of the STCW endorsement has [I]not[/I] changed.
As noted previously, the national and STCW endorsements are not the same and have their own requirements. You can get any national endorsement (license) without holding an STCW endorsement, but as I just noted, in almost all cases, the reverse is not true, you must hold an appropriate national endorsement to get an STCW endorsement (the only exceptions I can think of without looking them all up are Electro-Technical Officer, Electro-Technical Rating, Basic Training, and STCW security endorsements).
As noted above, to use the route for an STCW endorsement as Master for less than 3,000 GT to 3,000 GT or more, you must hold or concurrently qualify for a national endorsement as Master for a tonnage of 3,000 GT (1,600 GRT) or more.
[QUOTE=zacharyn;138287]This makes no sense to me because if you already hold Master less than 3000 GT haven’t you already had to meet STCW A-II/2?[/QUOTE]
Notwithstanding that you did not have to do anything (i.e. training and assessment) in order to/ “meet” STCW Regulation II/2, you did so only for less than 3,000 GT. Since we have been issuing STCW 95 endorsements, we have had separate endorsements for less than 3,000 GT, and for 3,000 GT or more. The current Master 500/1600 GRT with a corresponding STCW endorsement has [I]not[/I] met II/2 for 3,000 GT or more. In other words, your STCW endorsement under Regulation II/2 has a limitation to vessels of less than 3,000 GRT and to remove it you must meet the requirements for an endorsement for 3,000 GT or more.
[QUOTE=zacharyn;138287]…“Additional training listed below” according to the checklist is:
Advanced Shiphandling 11.305
Advanced Stability 11.305
Advanced Meteorology 11.305
Leadership and Management Skills 11.305
Search and Rescue 11.305
Management of Medical Care 11.305 [/QUOTE]
There are also assessments. You do not have to complete all of them for Master 3,000 GT or More, but need to do those that are different for Master 3,000 GT or More. See Enclosure 2 of NVIC 10-14.
[QUOTE=zacharyn;138287]…I wonder if the USCG will come up with an ITC equivalent for this tonnage so that Masters with tonnage limitation on their 3000 GT or more license can work on vessels with ITC only measurements.[/QUOTE]
See 46 CFR 10.232(i). 1,600 GRT is considered to be equivalent to 3,000 GT and 200 GRT is considered to be equivalent to 500 GT. Even these “equivalencies” are a stretch as the difference in GRT and GT is vessel specific and unlike kilowatts (kW) to horsepower (HP), there is no formula to convert one to the other (1.33 HP = 1.00 kW, see definition of [I]kilowatt[/I] in 46 CFR 10.107)
[QUOTE=zacharyn;138287]Has anyone submitted an application to upgrade and heard back from the NMC or better yet gone through the whole upgrade process?[/QUOTE]
If you look at the overall processing times noted in the NMC’s monthly performance report and the discussion about it here on gCaptain, it’s not likely that anyone who submitted an application after March 24, 2014, has made it through the evaluation process.
Let’s just admit that there are two camps here
in the red camp are all the 3000grt masters (including those with 6000 large OSV endorsements) who feel they deserve to be upped to UL because of the vagaries in the STCW code wording
in the blue camp are all the UL masters who have complied with all the mandates of the regulations (both 46CFR and STCW Code) and do not want to see their licenses diluted by a whole new slug of UL masters being crammed into a pipeline
everyone knows in which camp I fly my flag…
Camp asshat?
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;138304]Camp asshat?[/QUOTE]
you’re a grease monkey…what’s your dog in this fight?
oh, I know…it’s because my position is not friendly with all the GoM OSV boatdrivers out there!
Well EXCUUUSE ME! When very large OSV’s are operated as ships with ship manning, then the officers should get UL licenses but as long as they are run and manned as a workboat, then workboat papers for their crews. I’ve made my proposal for how this would work before to get OSV guys their UL certificates and I think it was a fair one where everyone gets something. I am sure you remember the thread because you were there at the time.
Oh I remember I just couldn’t resist the set up…
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;138307]Oh I remember I just couldn’t resist the set up…[/QUOTE]
Well thank God for that because I wouldn’t want to come to think of you as being stoopid or something.
.
c.captain. I like your red and blue analogy. It’s cute but you forgot the two most important camps and colors which trump red and blue. ORANGE and GREEN. Orange is the major bayou player and USCG who is influenced by them. and GREEN is for money. Let’s face it, money is the only reason this “new” checklist exists. All we (the USA) is doing by creating this double standard of work boats and deep sea is furthering the divide between our domestic maritime industry and the International US maritime industry. It makes compliance with STCW more difficult and ostracizes us from the international community and their standardization.
What do you think another country’s port state control is going to say when they see Master STCW A II/2 3000 GT or more OSV?