King's Point Superintendent Reassigned... and MARAD has NOTHING to say about it

Maritime Academy USMMA
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[QUOTE=Mikey;56722]Can we stick to the topic at hand please?! This thread was started with Admiral Greene getting reassigned and wtf happened. Take the KP vs. maritime academies argument to another thread.[/QUOTE]

No problem Mikey, I’ve made my point but the ouster of Adm. Greene certainly indicates something very malodorous is still putrifying inside of the “jewel” of the five service academies. One would think after the corruption scandals at Kings Point in recent years that MarAd wiould truly disinfect the place with caustic soda and a flamethrower if needed. This has obviously has not happened and I am beginning to doubt it ever will. Very very sad that KP has become the pathetic joke it has.

22

Why do you people obsess over what happens to KP? KP’ers don’t take to the streets protesting SUNY, MASS, Maine, Cal, et al. Same arguments could be used to close any/all the State schools and consolidating at KP. Those in glass houses, you know…

Leave them alone. It’s Obama’s mess - he should have begged Connaughton to stay.

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[QUOTE=ShoresideMariner;56726]Why do you people obsess over what happens to KP?[/QUOTE]

Because we are paying dearly for it. Because it is an anachronism. Because it duplicates, at great cost, what should be the role of the real service academies. Because there is no need for the taxpayer to produce little mariners when there is already a glut on the market.

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First, to clarify, I am not a homophobe. I am a retired Navy Submarine Officer who has served with gay sailors – it has never bothered me nor will a person’s orientation ever bother me. This post is not about orientation but about protocol and fraternization. Olrlando Gotay is openly gay. He has been holding “clandestine” social gatherings with cadets on the grounds of Kings Point for several years. This would be like having a gay Chief of Naval Operations that sneaks onto the grounds of the Naval Academy to socialize with midshipmen. Even removing any reference to being gay, no one should ever find it acceptable that a senior executive in an organization holds “clandestine” informal social gatherings with what essentially amounts to trainees. Informal socials are a great way to break the ice, make new members of an organization feel at ease or get to see their boss’s boss’s boss is a real person. Informal social gatherings should be held as often as practical, but with the entire management chain’s awareness. If Gotay wanted these socials to take place without the USMMA administration hovering around and hampering free discussion – well that could have been easily arranged without the need for sneakiness. Clearly Phil Greene saw something that caused him great concern over this behavior. ADM Greene is one of the finest officers I have ever had had the pleasure to serve with and have even advised my son who is applying to service academies that a chance to attend KP under ADM Greene’s tutelage would serve him well in life, the US Navy or in the merchant fleet. It is a tragedy that ADM Greene and his family were treated in this fashion.

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[QUOTE=c.captain;56725]No problem Mikey, I’ve made my point but the ouster of Adm. Greene certainly indicates something very malodorous is still putrifying inside of the “jewel” of the five service academies. One would think after the corruption scandals at Kings Point in recent years that MarAd wiould truly disinfect the place with caustic soda and a flamethrower if needed. This has obviously has not happened and I am beginning to doubt it ever will. Very very sad that KP has become the pathetic joke it has.[/QUOTE]
Greene was the disinfectant, MARAD is what stinks. Greene’s only crime was being too good at his job and having actual standards. Once again, when it comes to Uncle Sam, its kill the messenger.

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I do not know Admiral Greene personally, but I have heard only good things about him from other alumni.

Much of what is written in these forums is only hearsay; however I don’t think that the truth will come to light without serious pressure or embarrassment. I imagine that this supposed letter to Marad/Newsday will either surface or a story will appear soon. Also, if CDR Mund’s status 6 months from now might be telling of his involvement, and what of this DOT investigation?. It does seem that Dep Sec. Gotay has some friends in the Administration and he could very well be the cause of the Superintendents ouster. All speculation, but I too am saddened by the implications at Kings Point.

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[QUOTE=Steamer;56729]Because we are paying dearly for it. Because it is an anachronism. Because it duplicates, at great cost, what should be the role of the real service academies. Because there is no need for the taxpayer to produce little mariners when there is already a glut on the market.[/QUOTE]

SO, do we close all of them? If not, than you are truly being disingenuous. Do you really think anyones taxes will go down if they pulled the plug?

I’ve never heard a KP grad lobby to close any other school, but there never seems to be a shortage of Staties beating the KP crowd over the head. One colleague at least was honest and acknowledged that he hoped his State school would siphon off the funds laying around if KP closed.

Curiously, I’ve also never heard anyone but a Statie pray for another schools demise.

All those with an agenda take one step forward…

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From http://inpeaceandwar.blogspot.com/2011/10/oh-stately-strife-born-alma-mater-my.html?showComment=1319157161077#c6280332581225348141:

“[The 2010 MARAD Blue Ribbon Panel report’s] first recommendation had been to develop a Strategic Plan for the Academy, taking it into the future. … Admiral Greene took his position fully cognizant of this report and was working very hard to get ‘everyone on the bus’ to take the Academy where this report stated it needed to go. Toward that end the Academy Alumni Foundation offered to fund and develop a Strategic Plan in full compliance and coordination with the Academy. The work was to be provided at approximately half the commercial cost, valued at $1 million. The gift offer has been declined. Instead, an RFP went out from MARAD for this same work.”

Earlier in this thread, Rob Almeida states (paraphrasing the Foundation) that Admiral Greene, Foundation Board Officers Dombrowski and Hill, MARAD and DOT had talks about completing the Strategic Plan. Almeida says that ultimately the Strategic Plan contract was awarded to Price Waterhouse.

How to parse the above? It seems that the Foundation wanted to have significant control of production of the Strategic Plan, one way or another. It seems that somewhere along the line MARAD and DOT decided to pay considerable money to some entity to prepare a Strategic Plan. This would require some kind of competitive bidding process, per government regulations. I take offense at the Foundation’s objections. There seems to be a lack of understanding by Foundation leadership of where the line is insofar as its participation in USMMA management is concerned. The officers of the Foundation are not civil servants. The Foundation’s officers may be compensated, per the Foundation’s Bylaws (see the Foundation web site). If compensated, then they are paid from the Foundation’s revenues. The Foundation’s officers are not subject to government hiring restrictions etc. The line between the activities of the Foundation (funded by private sources) and activities of the government (funded by the taxpayer) must be crystal clear. Else the situation is ripe for cronyism, unethical conduct, and more.

A Strategic Plan for which money is to be paid should not be controlled by the Alumni Foundation. I have every confidence that Price Waterhouse will involve, in part, the Alumni Foundation in developing the Strategic Plan. But for the Strategic Plan to have credibility, Price Waterhouse must call the bulk of the shots, using every shred of objectivity of which PW is capable and for which PW will be paid handsomely.

Almeida’s posts indicate Superintendent Greene attempted to involve the Foundation mightily in preparing the Strategic Plan. It would seem to show poor judgment.

I conjecture that neither MARAD, DOT nor the Foundation are being forthcoming with details because inevitably (and with some sympathy to the Foundation, Admiral Greene, and every federal government employee), there is a lot of political sleeping around (figuratively; never mind Gotay and Mund) going on, with much money involved. The Foundation does provide much financial support of the Academy, all ostensibly legal. All the federal Academies have such an alumni connection. It is not in DOT’s or MARAD’s interests to embarrass the Foundation.

I remain doubtful of the need for a federal maritime academy, despite being a graduate of the same. What I took from Kings Point is to be loyal first to the needs of the people of the U.S. and the government as a whole when it comes to the maritime industry. The latter is what taxpayers paid for (when they subsidized my college education) and what they should expect. If the state colleges can do the job fine, then an assessment of the need for the USMMA is imperative, particularly in these difficult economic times. I will not attack DOT Secretary LaHood or MARAD chief Matsuda. A Kings Point education does not advocate mutiny, though from reading many of the attacks by the Foundation and other alumni, I am left wondering. That the Foundation has undertaken a campaign with the USMMA alumni to make demands of Secretary LaHood and MARAD chief Matsuda is embarrassing and outrageous.

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I would suggest that anyone reading the midshipmanhonor post do a little fact checking before taking the details seriously. As far as I know there was a donation offered to MARAD by the foundation or its members, ultimately refused, to fund the strategic planning worth somewhere in the range of $700,000. More recently MARAD put an RFP out for this same work, which I have heard was estimated to be in the $500,000 range. This was bid on and I believe an offer accepted by MARAD, but then the work was stopped by either MARAD or DOT seemingly in connection with the Admiral’s departure. This decision-making was all being handled by MARAD/DOT, rather than by Admiral Greene, again, as far as I know.

I am not so sure money is the motivation here, which is the ultimate assertion of this particular post, though it is proper to ask why there seems so little interest in this situation by the trade press. Some actual reporting (real journailistic, investigative reporting that is) beyond what gCaptain and the Colton blog, who have both done more than their share, have done would be enlightening, and hopefully make up for some of the shabby treatment the Admiral has received. Along the way it will hopefully shed some light on other fundamental MARAD/DOT management issues that have been raised by these events.

I don’t really understand the hijacking of this thread and don’t normally feedback into these kinds of comments. If someone wants to make a case for whether this school or any other should be funded or not funded that is fine with me, but why not do it somewhere where it makes sense, or at least start your own thread about it. It is rather undeniable that Kings Pointers have historically made major contributions to this industry, and others in ways that make the US better off. Whether this would occur without the Academy is at least debatable. Whether the business success of these graduates makes a net positive contribution to the Treasury can probably be calculated. The strategic value that graduates make is also debatable. Merely having an opinion on this subject doesn’t get us very far on this discussion, and debating this subject here dilutes the real topic that was started.

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[QUOTE=j24fan;56735]First, to clarify, I am not a homophobe. I am a retired Navy Submarine Officer who has served with gay sailors – it has never bothered me nor will a person’s orientation ever bother me. This post is not about orientation but about protocol and fraternization. Olrlando Gotay is openly gay. He has been holding “clandestine” social gatherings with cadets on the grounds of Kings Point for several years. This would be like having a gay Chief of Naval Operations that sneaks onto the grounds of the Naval Academy to socialize with midshipmen. Even removing any reference to being gay, no one should ever find it acceptable that a senior executive in an organization holds “clandestine” informal social gatherings with what essentially amounts to trainees. Informal socials are a great way to break the ice, make new members of an organization feel at ease or get to see their boss’s boss’s boss is a real person. Informal social gatherings should be held as often as practical, but with the entire management chain’s awareness. If Gotay wanted these socials to take place without the USMMA administration hovering around and hampering free discussion – well that could have been easily arranged without the need for sneakiness. Clearly Phil Greene saw something that caused him great concern over this behavior. ADM Greene is one of the finest officers I have ever had had the pleasure to serve with and have even advised my son who is applying to service academies that a chance to attend KP under ADM Greene’s tutelage would serve him well in life, the US Navy or in the merchant fleet. It is a tragedy that ADM Greene and his family were treated in this fashion.[/QUOTE]

In my view, Gotay having clandestine social gatherings with male midshipmen on the grounds is no different than, say Bill Clinton having clandestine social gatherings with female midshipmen. . . . .

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[QUOTE=c.captain;56609][B]TIME TO CLOSE THAT FESTERING CESSPOOL OF GOVERNMENT WASTE AND CORRUPTION![/B]

.[/QUOTE]

You know at least the people that attend the school commit their lives to SOMETHING-even if it is only for a few years-as opposed to you who just sits here and replies to and sends petty spiteful messages in order to satisfy some weird vendetta you hold. Going to ANY of the federal academies is something that not many people in this country would be able to do and come out of successfully.The day that you and the rest of the country stop shopping at Walmart and other huge corporate conglomerates, stop using fuel from BP and any other petroleum company or basically stop being dependent upon foreign entities then maybe I can see where you’re coming from when you say to shut down the so called “cesspool.” However, even then your call for such a thing is completely ludicrous- every year the school graduates a force of students who (and I’m not saying they all do by any means) has the skills and knowledge to enter the workforce immediately after graduation. Consider that compared to the thousands of students who graduate from regular colleges across the country and end up moving back in with mom and dad to not find a job in their major for months, maybe even years. Now I realize it is a bit different as those students are just “wasting” their money as opposed to the tax payers, however waste is still waste in my opinion. Those students took the spot of another who could have potentially done better than them or become more successful than they did at said institution and entered the workforce sooner in order to help the country’s growth and development- is it not the same argument? I would rather spend my money sending someone to school who is willing to give back even a little bit of their time if it means not another wasted mind. At least they are working toward something.

Without Kings Point the maritime industry would truly suffer as the graduates from there not only leave with a one of a kind education (and in regards to the teacher quality- yes some of the professors are awful but even ask graduates from the school’s early years, they can attest to the same fact. The students are able to make up for the short comings through each other and through self- determination) but also with the leadership training that they receive that matures them well beyond their years making them a solid force to be reckoned with upon entering the industry.

I think your sole issue should be with MARAD- which would completely correspond to the sentiment of the school and the alumni- as that is where the corruption and decay is truly coming from.

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For those of you who take issue with Kings Point, why not take issue with the fact that the number one degree given to Naval Academy graduates is political science…not to mention the fact that marine engineering isn’t even offered anymore. How do you expect those graduates to leave from there and navigate and operate multi-million dollar military vessels that your tax money pays for…Kings Pointers are far more qualified in that regard…

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[QUOTE=mariner8563;56824]For those of you who take issue with Kings Point, why not take issue with the fact that the number one degree given to Naval Academy graduates is political science…not to mention the fact that marine engineering isn’t even offered anymore. How do you expect those graduates to leave from there and navigate and operate multi-million dollar military vessels that your tax money pays for…[B][I]Kings Pointers are far more qualified in that regard[/I][/B]…[/QUOTE]

I promised Mickey I wouldn’t continue down this road but since you have, I just want to commend you for your most profound validation of my position that Kings Point graduates should be required to serve as active duty Naval officers before beginning their merchant marine careers. I simply could not have put it better myself.

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[QUOTE=mariner8563;56823]You know at least the people that attend the school commit their lives to SOMETHING-even if it is only for a few years-as opposed to you who just sits here and replies to and sends petty spiteful messages in order to satisfy some weird vendetta you hold. [/QUOTE]

dear sir

You deem to lecture me about making a commitment to a life in the maritime in industry! Have you dedicated your career going to sea as a professional mariner? If you have then I will listen to you as an equal but if you haven’t then you have no standing to say a thing to me and your words are nothing more that self service blather in your attempt to justify the long ago disproved validity of KP as a meaningful maritime training institution worthy of continued taxpayer funding.

Admiral Greene was a victim of an entrenched system so utterly rotten that it is beyond salvaging. He tried to fix it but ran up against forces of corruption he could not overcome and which ultimately buried him. There in nobody left now who can change it. Who in the name of God would ever want to try with this as the preordained result for one’s efforts?

.

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[QUOTE=mariner8563;56823]You know at least the people that attend the school commit their lives to SOMETHING-even if it is only for a few years-as opposed to you who just sits here and replies to and sends petty spiteful messages in order to satisfy some weird vendetta you hold. Going to ANY of the federal academies is something that not many people in this country would be able to do and come out of successfully.The day that you and the rest of the country stop shopping at Walmart and other huge corporate conglomerates, stop using fuel from BP and any other petroleum company or basically stop being dependent upon foreign entities then maybe I can see where you’re coming from when you say to shut down the so called “cesspool.” However, even then your call for such a thing is completely ludicrous- every year the school graduates a force of students who (and I’m not saying they all do by any means) has the skills and knowledge to enter the workforce immediately after graduation. Consider that compared to the thousands of students who graduate from regular colleges across the country and end up moving back in with mom and dad to not find a job in their major for months, maybe even years. Now I realize it is a bit different as those students are just “wasting” their money as opposed to the tax payers, however waste is still waste in my opinion. Those students took the spot of another who could have potentially done better than them or become more successful than they did at said institution and entered the workforce sooner in order to help the country’s growth and development- is it not the same argument? I would rather spend my money sending someone to school who is willing to give back even a little bit of their time if it means not another wasted mind. At least they are working toward something.

Without Kings Point the maritime industry would truly suffer as the graduates from there not only leave with a one of a kind education (and in regards to the teacher quality- yes some of the professors are awful but even ask graduates from the school’s early years, they can attest to the same fact. The students are able to make up for the short comings through each other and through self- determination) but also with the leadership training that they receive that matures them well beyond their years making them a solid force to be reckoned with upon entering the industry.

I think your sole issue should be with MARAD- which would completely correspond to the sentiment of the school and the alumni- as that is where the corruption and decay is truly coming from.[/QUOTE]

Why do people outside of the metro NY area generally loathe KP grads by and large???

To be sure I have a few freinds that are KP grads…but I dont look at them as “KP” grads I look at them as pretty good guys first and then as people who made some unfortunate decisions with regard to their education as young people. I have an uncle who is a really bad drunk…and when we get together for family gatherings, it is a bit of a pain in the ass, but he has some redeeming qualities. KP people have some redeeming qualities…some of them are funny.

It’s not the free education. Personally for me it’s the ineptitude combined with the bad attitude. When you have a cadet say something like, " Everybody who goes to a state academy is there only because they couldn’t get into KP"…it kind of sets the tone for that individual for the rest of their time with you. When you have a cadet that has been in a MARITIME ACADEMY for two years and can’t explain the basic theory behind how an eductor works it makes you wonder.

I won’t debate that the quality of the basic education that a KP cadet has the opportunity to receive is good. What I will debate is the quality of the mariner that is produced by KP. Mentality and Attitude can be learned and KP sucks at imparting the right ones.Lack of Knowledge will not hold you back in this business. On the job training or some form of it has been relied on in this business probably since before Columbus and it still exists today. The biggest thing I learned in school was to identify the smart people around you and get next to them as much as possible. KP doesn’t seem to impart this. To be fair the KP guys that I have worked with who WERE good…were exteptionally good, but they were far and few between.

If you take a midshipman from one of each of the 4 east coast academys and lock them in a room the New Englanders will invaribly side with each other against the New Yorkers…then the kid from the Bronx will more than likely wake up and realize that the one from across the bridge may be his boy but he’s a flaming asshole and join sides with the guys from up north. And these guys are just sitting around in a room together. Put them in an environment were they have to rely on each other to get a job done, or to keep each other safe…

This is a systemic loathing here, not an individual thing. I have never seen such a passionate proffesional loathing across generatations for one group of people.

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And you think the state school grads working in the industry don’t? Do you think the people posting here who have invested their working lives to the industry haven’t committed anything?

every year the school graduates a force of students who (and I’m not saying they all do by any means) has the skills and knowledge to enter the workforce immediately after graduation.

Do you honestly believe that the state school, and even private school graduates don’t? Have you ever spoken to anyone other than another KoolAid stained Kings Pointer?

I would rather spend my money sending someone to school who is willing to give back even a little bit of their time if it means not another wasted mind. At least they are working toward something.

That is why many of us are hoping that this latest incident will attract enough attention to finally plug the KP drain. We simply can no longer afford the fiction that KP serves a useful purpose as a service academy or as a merchant marine training school. The war was over in 1945, it’s time to send those troops home.

Without Kings Point the maritime industry would truly suffer as the graduates from there not only leave with a one of a kind education …

Is that so ingrained that you can’t even hear it or read it? There are 4 legitimate service academies (and I wonder about the value of one of those) to feed that industry so clinging to the fantasty that KP is vital to our national security is truly a fiction, an expensive and pointless fiction. The same education is available at any of the state schools at far greater economy. The kids who go to a state maritime school go there because it is a maritime school, not because it is free, not because they couldn’t get into Annapolis or one of the other service academies, but (for a far greater proportion) because they are interested in the maritime industry and are willing to commit to it. No one can say that about any but a few KP entrants. Those same students, I believe, would have gone to a state school if they had not been selected for KP and they would have done equally well and probably better considering they would not have been institutionalized and brainwashed by those who feed off the DC teat.

The students are able to make up for the short comings through each other and through self- determination

I’m glad you provided a bit of comic relief to this thread. Most schools provide talented instruction then facilitate cooperative learning experiences. Only the “jewel in the crown” forces students to improvise in order to survive. What has the place become? A residential correspondence school?

All you have to do is read what the defenders and apologists on these pages have submitted in order to realize that KP’s battle for relevance was lost a long time ago. We live in a different world than the 1940s. Maritime training should be left to maritime and educational professionals. We can no longer afford to finance training for the SS Pinafore.

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[QUOTE=delphi;56846]Why do people outside of the metro NY area generally loathe KP grads by and large???[/QUOTE]

That comment is specious and diversionary. I know very few people who “loathe KP grads” specifically and even fewer who group them one way or the other.

What people like me generally loathe is people who choose not to address the real subject, that KP is irrelevant and too costly even if it were not for the corruption and ingrained incompetence that threatens its decayed foundations.

What loathing that does exist is for the institution itself, the continued establishment and funding at great expense of a social order that no longer has a purpose. The United States does not need Kings Point. It does not provide a unique product. Nothing it offers can justify its expense.

The fact that not one of the apologists or those who post here in support of KP’s existence can say anything other than claim the rest of us don’t like you because you went to KP is not only ignorant it is vulgar.

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Go to Castine or Buzzards Bay and I don’t think you’ll find such a “specious” conversation.

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Hey c.captain, I just got an email stating that I was actually OVERCHARGED to attend KP (I had to pay about $10k in midshipman fees) and I’m due back a refund!!! Thanks man!

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[QUOTE=GG2TB;56855]Hey c.captain, I just got an email stating that I was actually OVERCHARGED to attend KP (I had to pay about $10k in midshipman fees) and I’m due back a refund!!! Thanks man![/QUOTE]Yeah … that was helpful.

If part of your rationale for closing KP is that there aren’t enough jobs then shouldn’t we close NMC too? Shouldn’t the USCG stop issuing licenses until the economy picks up again?

Steamer, you are right on the money in that there is a link to DOD planning to refight WWII but it will take the Generals and Admirals figuring out todays reality before anything can change. It is not up to MARAD. As long as the DOD strategic plans involve two simultaneous conventional land wars there will be a “need” for a level of sealift that requires a number of mariners far beyond what all the state schools and the hawsepipe generate each year combined. Keeping in mind also how the government loves to buy things it doesn’t really need in order to keep the production lines open is it any wonder that they will continue to “buy” a new crop of licensed mariners each year whether or not the industry can really support them? It’s trickle down government planning and you have to make the root changes first.

There isn’t any koolaid left in my system. I’ve paid too much in taxes over the years for that. I saw too much government waste working for uncle sam not to be able to see the truth, but as an alumni I would hate to see the place closed.