John Le Carré on Brexit and more

Scuttlebutt
21

How are your quantifying that? You can look up the gross domestic product per capita for Greece since 1960 here:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GRC/greece/gdp-per-capita

GDP per capita took a real dive after 2010. Still it is exponentially higher than 1960. 1960 was light years better than the 1945. From Wikipedia re: Greece and the end of WW2:

The country almost immediately descended into a bloody civil war between communist forces and the anti-communist Greek government, which lasted until 1949 with the latter’s victory. The conflict, considered one of the earliest struggles of the Cold War,[125] resulted in further economic devastation, mass population displacement and severe political polarisation for the next thirty years.[126]

Although the post-war decades were characterised by social strife and widespread marginalisation of the left in political and social spheres, Greece nonetheless experienced rapid economic growth and recovery, propelled in part by the U.S.-administered Marshall Plan.[127]

So how do you support your statement that "the misery Germany inflicted on Greece for example today might be worse than after WWII”?

22

if you want to use gdp then you need to show what is measured by that gdp.
A nation of happy self sufficient farmers have a far lower gdp than a city where they make some exported item and half live rough on the streets.


only 40 more years to go

PS the Greeks were not bailed out, French and German banks were.

23

No argument with you there. But I don’t think Greece was a nation of happy self sufficient farmers at the end of WW2.

My belief is that your original statement is grossly exaggerated. The misery Greece is suffering now is nothing compared to the starvation and near civil war that followed WW2.

24

I didnt say they were I was making the comparison that gdp is not a measure of the well being of a population.
Take Singapore for example…take a look at any photo of people in the street in the 60’s and then today. Increased gdp has made them miserable and unsure of their future as there a few winners but the majority are losers.
Same middle class destruction everywhere in the west due to an excess of freely printed cash.

25

Oh come on. We’re supposed to judge the progress of a society by ANY photo?

I show you photos of a Singapore slum in 1960 and a photo of the same neighborhood in 2020, far more prosperous, and what are you going to say? You’re going to say that the poor people were kicked out and rich people moved in. And how are you going to substantiate that statement?

If you have numbers, objective facts, to back up your statements trot them out and let’s take a look.

By the way, I’ve been to Singapore. First time back in 1980. It was like Southern California. Only it worked: way too clean, too organized for me. And way too hot.

26

RE: Objective facts;
According to the 2019 World Happiness Index, Singapore ranks #1 in “Healthy Life Expectancy” and last in corruption.

I don’t really care about Singapore. I simply suggest that data such as these be used to quantify assertions about the quality of life in a given country, rather than photos.

27

Most people do not have an idea of Greek (economic) history. If they had, they would know that Greece has never had a balanced budget since that disastrous year of 1922! That has been ninety eight (98) years, almost a hundred years. Greece has been muddling from crisis to crisis for ninety eight years, and if they had not entered the EU and certainly not in the eurozone, they would have happily spent another ninety eight or one hundred years.

28

I visited Singapore for the first time in 1959 and has called it home since 1967, but I have a problem understanding what you see around you here??
The amount of $ in your account, the type of car, or how big house you own, isn’t any measurment of happiness (Refr. happy Buthan w/o all the matherial comfort)

The nominally Socialist countries on top and the relatively “unhappy” capitalist USA at 19th place, with Singapore at 34th, are judged on mainly economical and social conditions, not on how many smiling pepople you see on the street.

The stress of a hectic worklife and long working hours may make people smile less than in the past, but materially they are a lot better off, which is a measurable thing. (Nobody count smiles)

I don’t understand how you can live here, since you appear to find something wrong with just about everything (??)

29

Singapore is a technocracy which is a system of governance that is not familiar to most people. The Scandinavian countries along with New Zealand, Australia and others all score higher on the happiness index than the USA. Not so coincidentally they also score higher on the corruption index from Transparency International than the USA. All the happier countries have a universal health care system for their citizens in one form or another, they also have excellent education system, protections for wage earners, fair taxation etc. They also perhaps most importantly regulate bribes paid to politicians. In the USA we call bribes “campaign contributions”

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30

so is it rich and miserable ( as measured by material goods) or poor and happy?

31

I noticed you left…

32

so are they happier now as they have a car but didnt 40 years ago?

33

Mybe you read a different Corruption Index than I do?

The same countries also scors high in the Freedom Index:

Looks like a lot of young Americans have noticed that the Nordic model of Social Demoracy doesn’t mean public ownership, no freedom and no democracy…

34

No on the contrary. I DON’T thnk that high income and material things make for more happiness.
In the Singapore of my youth there were less stress, although far less material comfort. In the Kampongs of the time kids were running about playing traditional games, not sitting indoors in comfortable HDB flats, or in Shopping Malls, playing games on their phones.

In the early 1970s I was Captain on a small Singapore ship trading in Indonesia, with a mixed crew of Singaporeans and Indonesians. I was paid more than the entire crew of 20 or so put together. Not sure if I was any happier than them.

I was also the only one holding a license equvivilant to my position. Every officer were on dispensation. I had to sign that I accepted them as qualified.
That was in the pioneering days of shipping under Singapore flag.

That was then. Now being “Ang Moh” isn’t an advantage anymore. Singapore is a meritocracy. It is not a question of race, religion or who do you know, but what do you know and how you contribute to society.

The Singapore syatem of Governance may not be to everybodies liking, but it has raised Singapore from a colonial backwater to one of the richest countries in the world today (4th place) way ahead of it’s former colonial masters:
http://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-gdp-capita-ppp.php

35

yes all true but I know my neighbours say back when life was simple we were happier.
You dont get that comment in all countries
I think its what you see in your future, if you are looking at constant growth and expansion you know your life will move forward but when it stagnates you then count the cost of living and its very easy to compare your life to others especially when you work for a multinational.
You meet your opposite number and see how they live, thats becoming an issue here in Singapore now for the new generation after a few years of seeing how the world works and having equal skills they dont have the appreciation for Singapore their parents and grandparents have and hence have worked out they would be better off doing a working career outside of Singapore.
A bit like the hundreds of thousands of French that work in the UK.

36

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant by “higher”. :flushed:

No I’m still here in Singapore, if that is what you meant (??)
Have been unable to participate here though.

37

First let me preface by admitting to being a recreational mariner. You guys will call me a WAFI. But I don’t mind as I have the option to not put to sea and after 40 years of sailing I have the wisdom to know when to use that option.

As a recerational sailor, I sail short handed, so I do things that work. I don’t do something simply because someone says it is the right way to do it. And that is my approach to Europe.

In short, I find the reality of Europe does not match the sales pitch. As discussed above, the dream of a shared prosperity is not deliverd when Greece is so poor compared to Germany.

The single market only works for things like toothpaste, Coke, and manufacturing parts. With over 20 languages and histories, there is no real common market for goods like foods and household because the Italians don’t much care for German bratwurst.

Freedom of movement is likewise a misnomer. The Tomahawk household would be living in France, but for not speaking fluent French. However, the movement of huge numbers of unskilled migrants puts a lot of strain on local services and adds to a severe housing shortage.

Then we have democracy… or lack of it. Many of you guys possibly don’t much love President Trump. But in nine months he faces the ballot box. You can get rid of him. Not so the president of the European commission, Ursula Underlyme, (who is she). Even though all our laws have to comply with EU directives, we cannot directly vote for or against the people who make those Directives.

If you think President Trump is being a bit belligerent regards his wall, the entire southern border of Europe is open. Europe needs a cohesive defence force charged with protecting the Med. But without a single Commander in Chief who represents all of countries, it is not possible.

On the other side, Europhiles say we are richer and have more opportunities as part of the EU. As I say, it’s a matter if the reality not being able to meet the aspirations.

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39

Yours is similar to all other UK’ers that I talked with about Brexit. Although what you point out about the trade in items that no one wants unless you live close to the area where they are made is a new one. All of your complaints about staying apart of the EU sounds legitimate to me. Unfortunately, I haven’t read many public media naysayers on Brexit address any of these legitimate concerns. They just belly ach about the majority’s desire to flee & many resort to name calling because the people want more control over their own country. Good luck to you guys. Even if it doesn’t turn out as well as you want your country & forefathers went through so much worse & things turned out just fine. Thanks for your perspective.

About your reasons of being on water. I don’t think it matters much, at least on the majority of the topics on gCaptain. I’m a working mariner but an engine room guy. There’s threads & topics that are out of my league & I don’t comment on them. If I did someone might reply with a “WTF” but I don’t see the name calling & over compensating bullying that used to happen more frequently on this forum. The forum is more welcoming to recreational mariners compared to years past. New ideas from a bunch of different people from different walks of life is what keeps things interesting IMO.

40

I would love for Europe to work.
But I feel it is not able to adapt. The reaction to the referendum by Jean Claud Junker (dunker) was to call for more integration and central control by Brussels. I consider the reason the UK voted out was because of the centralisation of power into the hands of unelected bureaucrats.

But herein lies the problem. Europe really is 28 different nations each with a separate history and culture of over 1000 years. We are simply not ab le to become a united whole as America can do. And without that united sense of identory, it is impossible to have any sort of sensible democracy whjere those in power are accountable to the electorate of all 350m people.

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41

I’m surprised that the EU has grown as big as it has, and lasted as long as it has, without wealthier and better educated counties with strong economies withdrawing.

Many countries only joined the EU so that they could send their unemployed job hunting in the wealthier countries, and so those people could send money back home. Many countries joined for protection from the Russians.