I am familiar, and they do, with waivers, work on foreign flagged ships. It is not as uncommon as you think. It’s just an unnecessary institution. The SMAs supply the same product.
A partial solution to the bulging curriculum is to change the degree from an ordinary BS to a “first professional degree”. I looked at Cal Maritime and they require 140 units for a BS, which is 20 units beyond what a regular BA/BS degree requires. Berkeley offers a BA Architecture/MArch to qualify for the architecture license exam, minimum of 6 years but more likely 7. But Cal Poly SLO offers a 5 years BArch “first professional degree”. It doesn’t lighten the course load, but it increases the reward.
That said, as a Kings Point dropout, 40 years mariner, survivor of 26 years as Master (NFAF) with MSC, and recent college graduate, I’ll add my voice to the chorus calling for the termination of Kings Point. The other service academies place service first, last, and always. If you drop out of West Point after two years, you serve out your obligation as an enlisted soldier. If Kings Point had a clear-cut and well-enforced mandatory service requirement (actively sail in the US Merchant Marine or report for duty in the Naval Reserve, with no shoreside employment exception) they would have a stronger case.
As it is, the state academies produce more than enough licensed officers and their organizational, cultural, and economic model are far more robust.
"In the past year, I have had the opportunity to talk with presidents and administrators at most of the state schools and they all face one big problem. This is also a problem at Kings Point. The problem is it’s difficult to fit new programs into a curriculum that’s bulging at the seams. A curriculum that’s overstuffed with mandatory license training programs like the ones once offered by GMATS."
The problem comes with the insistence that the programs offer Bachelor’s degree programs in 4 years combined with the license programs. As the industry and regulators keeps adding additional requirements something has to give. You have a degree, a license, and 4 years. You can keep two of the three, which one do you give up?
"It would work like this. State school graduates not obtaining licenses as well as those with licenses who are going to work shoreside or on vessels that don’t require extra endorsements would graduate and enter the workplace on schedule. Those seeking endorsements like STCW, and willing to sign up for the USMS, would travel to Kings Point for an additional 6 months of specialized training after graduation."
And add in all the new USNA graduates going SWO.
If I wanted to go to Kings Point I would have. I’m not paying to go to a state academy to then do 6 months at the most miserable campus in the United States. The schools don’t help the situation by not accepting gen Ed’s from other colleges or allowing a RADAR/ARPA class to be taken in a week at a local “maritime school.”
The prick of a Registrar at my school straight up said to my face that I couldn’t take any classes elsewhere “because we want your money.” Which, I guess I can respect his honesty, but if the Academies are complaining about not being able to fit all this into a 4 year program, allow us to take SOME classes at other institutions that don’t take a combined 8 months to teach ARPA/RADAR. I took a class on The Hunger Games my senior year because I needed a humanities credit. I could’ve taken a class online, for less money, time, and effort, and gotten the same damn result.
I came into school with 3 AP credits that transferred and allowed me to take a Tugs course that got me my TOAR. If the schools allowed you to transfer in more classes and made the class schedules more flexible (offer classes in both spring and fall instead of one or the other, or granting waivers for doing sea terms with other schools/multiple commercial/cadet shipping programs) it wouldn’t deter kids from going to community college route for a year or two and then transferring in, and graduating in two/three years instead of four and also allowing room for classes like Tugs, diesels for deckies, Yacht Operations, etc.
The way the system works right now, at least at the fine institution I attended, they have no desire change the way it is.
I know Mr. Cavo will respond with “academy’s have to abide by an approved training course”, which I know is true, however they have more leeway than they say they do. I’ve seen them grant waivers, ive seen them sweep things under the rug. I’ve also seen them drag their feet and just not want to submit anything to the coast guard for approval because they’re lazy and don’t want to change things.
JAYZUSS EMMEFFING KEERYST! The USA does not need to spend more than $100M a year training more officers for an industry that doesn’t have any FUCKING ships anymore. During WWII we were building merchant ships faster than we could train people to sail on them and thus was born KP. During the post war up until Ronnie Raygun, the USA still was at least building merchant ships and keeping a merchant marine in being but in the four decades since, we are not building FUCK ALL except the barest minimum for Jones Act trades and the fleet is now four times smaller that it was in 1980 so why keep producing people at $250k per for ships we do not have anymore?
John, your argument that KP’s budget is .0081% of the Federal budget rings hollow when the USA is not spending at least something like quintuple that every year on subsidizing ships! Ok, let KP stay open but not unless some President and Congress realizes that for national defense we need a healthy fleet of ships out there operating year after year and ponies up the needed funding because it is proven by our nation’s own history that unless supported by the Federal government, the US flagged merchant marine cannot survive let alone thrive. Without that far broader support of a merchant fleet, KP is nothing more than pure fiscal pork to keep a bunch of self serving moochers and freeloaders employed running the place. Having a healthy fleet must come first!
In case you missed it John, the preamble of the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 reads:
It is necessary for the national defense and development of its foreign and domestic commerce that the United States shall have a merchant marine
(a) sufficient to carry its domestic water-borne commerce and a substantial portion of the water-borne export and import foreign commerce of the United States and to provide shipping service on all routes essential for maintaining the flow of such domestic and foreign water-borne commerce at all times
(b) capable of serving as a naval and military auxiliary in time of war or national emergency,
(c ) owned and operated under the United States flag by citizens of the United States insofar as may be practicable, and
(d) composed of the best-equipped, safest, and most suitable types of vessels, constructed in the United States and manned with a trained and efficient citizen personnel.
It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States to foster the development and encourage the maintenance of such a merchant marine.
until our government returns to actually maintaining such a policy (which I simply have given up ever to see occurring in the remainer of my lifetime) as opposed to just giving it more pandering lip service, then funding KP is fiscal idiocy. The money it receives needs to go to having MORE ships…be it through enforcing existing legislation or an expansion of the MSP. Frankly, we need an entirely new Merchant Marine Act passed that envelopes all the existing Acts and recognizes that the Nation needs to maintain a fleet in being but that is going to cost a lot of money, but until that day comes, funding the USMMA is utterly and completely STOOPID!
I know a lot of people have some strong opinions versus KP.
Just as a hypothetical, are the arguments the same against schools that offer military training, but, you pay to go to as well? (VMI, the citadel, etc). They also produce trained officers.
Or, for that matter, how about schools like Embry Riddle? Not directly training officers but training pilots, the Air Force academy doesn’t even do that directly.
If someone told me there are better ways, more economical ways to train officers, I would probably agree. If someone said the role of KP should change versus training junior officers directly, I could agree to some extent too. If someone just says KP is useless, I’m not sure Its a quantitively substantive statement on its own.
I also agree that a fleet must come first, but, there are a lot of other logistics that come first to build that fleet. At the annual operating cost of KP (~80 million) vs the cost to build one US flag tanker (300-400 million or so?) that operating budget is something that doesn’t even put a dent in the n things.
BUT… what is the point of having US tonnage? Does it matter for commercial reasons? Or, does it matter for defense reasons? (Or both?)
Blasphemy aside, does it matter if US sailors are on commercial ships at all when sailors from other countries are just as capable as us, and even more so in some cases? [To note: I believe it is important]
I think something like Norway did and opening up an international register could be an interesting solution. (If you’re not familiar, Norway has two ship registries. One register is for Norwegian ships, with Norwegian crews [sort of a Jones act type thing] and An international register for foreign built boats, foreign crews, etc.) if the US did that, we could build the tonnage back up.
That being said, the USCG is one of the most active and strict flags in the world, and a lot of this would require major cultural change there to get things kicked off as well, or to mention an act of
Congress too…
Embry Riddle is a private school. It’s a school for people who want to pay to attend and obtain civilian flight training for jobs in civil aviation. The school does not pretend to pump out baby soldiers, sailors, or military airmen. There is zero parallel with KP or one of the real service academies.
The air force academy is not a flight school. The Air Force has multiple flight training schools, the academy offers an introductory program with gliders and single engine Cessnas along with sport parachuting. It’s more like a flying club for those with top gun dreams. The academy doesn’t pump out baby fighter jocks or transport pilots. Half the academy students have no flying interest at all but all of them go into the USAF. They don’t go to work for Boeing or a foreign airline.
KP serves no needed purpose, it hasn’t served the national interests since 1945.
Steamer thanks for the reply 
It’s clear what your thoughts on KP are, and that’s ok. It’s a dialogue after all.
I’m just curious though, what about the other colleges (that people pay to go to) that also produce military officers?
Which arguments? That the schools provide no purpose? I don’t think it’s the same when the tax payer is footing the bill. Also, KP grads tend to have a reputation of not fulfilling the requirements of their appointment, such as sailing on US Flag ships, doing their yearly Navy training, sailing instead of going to get a law degree or some other non-maritime related degree.
The other schools you mentioned graduate military officers who I am assuming go active duty through ROTC or some other commissioning program where there isn’t really an option to not fulfill your duties. I don’t think you can really compare kids who go to a military academy (that they paid for) and graduate with the requirement to serve in active duty with kids who go to KP (for free) and find ways to skip out on the requirements they agreed to fulfill.
Not quite what I was asking.
The argument I see is was State schools were better than KP because the product was the same. (Let’s say for arguments sake, that is correct)
If other private military academies exist that produce qualified officers, why do the other service academies exist? Using many of the arguments already pushed forward regarding KP grads, what distinguishes them from their peers amongst the other academies?
Honestly, I’m not sure it really matters, we could argue back and forth all day on the matter I’m certain. We could also venture down and do a cost comparison but I think gcaptain himself already proved its not really a financial argument.
I don’t think the political will exists to close the place, but, is it possible to transform it into something else?
I think BeerCaptain answered your question - if it was a question.
With regard to private schools offering ROTC programs, who cares? Their existence means nothing to the USMM or me personally. It is a choice offered to kids, nothing wrong with that and nothing particularly brilliant about it either.
I don’t see the argument being about state schools being better than KP, it is just that KP is superfluous. The nation, or even the military doesn’t need the place. There is no institution or industry begging for its product. In the case of the USMM, the market is saturated already, we need customers more than we need baby mates or shipping company pencil pushers. Buggy whips and baby mates are the products of a cottage industry, the need for a public financed buggy whip factory faded away 75 years ago…
I think the main reason is that there’s an actual demand for military officers and the service academies ensure a steady supply. I don’t believe that KP meets this requirement based solely on the fact that there is no active duty requirement via KP. In recent history, there hasn’t even been strict enforcement to ensure that KP grads are fulfilling the very minimal service requirements that do exist.
I’m still all for KP grads serving in MSC for a fixed number of years upon graduation if they don’t go active duty in a different branch.
Based off my experience with KP cadets and state school cadets, I’d say that overall the trend has been downward. I think maybe a little less marching around in perfectly creased uniforms and a little more time getting their hands dirty in a classroom or lab environment would pay more dividends. I also think that they need a training ship with instructors that are there to teach them.
I personally don’t have the manpower or time to devote to training a first sailing cadet only to know that I’m going to lose them and never see them again in a couple months. Time is a resource that I don’t get back and there is literally no return on my investment. It sucks for them, it sucks for me. The second and third sailing cadets that I’ve been getting lately haven’t been balls of fire either.
My recent experience is that the state school cadets are much more motivated and eager to learn.
Ah yes, for arguments sake my license is equal to that of a KP grad, but not in actuality? (Half sarcasm)
Realistically, the Federal Academies exist because of tradition, alumni who love it and would riot in the streets if it closed, politicians who do not really understand it but see it as a great sense of national pride, and the fact that this country loves to fight wars so they need a shit load of war fighters and a great way to get people to fight them is to entice them to go get brainwashed by offering free education, free housing/food, a career with great benefits, and the opportunity to die a hero (some of that is sarcasm, you can decide which is which).
What distinguishes KP grads from state school guys is nothing aside from the fact that I paid for my education and they didn’t. We have the same license and same experience as soon as we walk outta those gates.
What distinguishes KP grads from other federal service academies is a far longer list, including but not limited to; actually serving their country like they signed up to do.
(Obviously there are exceptions to every thing, so I’m generalizing when I say all KP grads avoid their Navy duties, sailing US Flag, etc and that all federal service academy grads go on to serve and be career military people. )
Captain Konrad aka @john and @SwampAssassin,
I trust that my words find you well and sailing in fair winds with calm seas.
I have enjoyed reading and watching for years the forum comments visible to me but not once had the urge to comment until Capt. Konrad and myself connected yesterday as we exchanged ideas in regard to the same exact subject discussed here.
Thank you for bringing this very important point up regarding Navigation Technology. But the focus should be more toward the way the Information Technology is really affecting the systems that once were never connected with OT | ICS Systems.
Additionally, the fact that today those systems are dependent on being connected and how they pose real Cyber Security Threats to the Safety and Operation of the systems that Navigate, Provide Positioning, propulsion etc to a vessel or Port facility. Not to mention, Elevators, HVAC, Robotic equipment and such which have also now been integrated with IT and can provide safety Risks.
Mariners today need to be Cyber Mariners in some capacity. The same way we drill for Life vest inspections, and Life boat drills, the same way we should address the USB sanitation, and usage on ECDIS, MAS or other critical system. Teaching the Cyber Mariner how to navigate, no pun intended, from a Maritime Cyber Security POV, will prepare him for how to react when it is needed but more importantly because they can help create cyber security awareness to those that may not have it.
Having served in the USN I value the need for instruction (training) Drills, (real world practice). We are doing this today, properly named TT&E or Test, Training and Exercise, some refer to it as Table Top Exercises. No matter how we chose to term the idea, all of us should do more of these with others so that as SME’s, and including every single one of you that comment and provide their opinions, we train and exercise to learn with others how to steer or correct the course of the future track in Technology within the Maritime industry.
I am going to put you in the hot seat John to see how you answer.
pick ONLY one option here
a) maintain KP just as it is for the foreseeable future
b) use the $100M KP costs to operate annually to augment the MSP and add 20 ships to the US flag merchant marine
I ask you not to be evasive here, dissembling and obfuscating your answer…you are asked to simply pick either a or b. let everyone here know how important you feel having US flagged ships and jobs for US citizen mariners or if you feel having a KP is more critical?
H[quote=“c.captain, post:39, topic:56805”]
use the $100M KP costs to operate annually to add 20 ships to the US flag merchant marine
[/quote]
would think 100m/y would get you maybe 5 new ships, rough numbers
crew cost 20k/d, capital costs 35 k/d, m&r costs 2-5k/d, add g&a 1 k/d = round it to 60k/d - about 20m/yr
Yea I’m not sure that math works out?
Edit: i guess it does.
It does if you are talking MSP slots
correct, each ship in the MSP gets about $5M a year so the math is spot on. Go from 60 ships to 80 just like that. at about 40 mariners employed per ship makes an increase of 800 jobs.
I did add that clarification to my question to John and it is tough to argue with that math…but I somehow think John will try or maybe he will just fail to answer my question to him? KP is fiscal waste!