I have a 50 ton lic and am considering starting as an OS with the goal of 1600 Master. I have a college degree. I have considered and been accepted to SUNY maritime, but from the people I have spoked with I can make 1600 in 5 years or so. I would rather save the money paying for SUNY and make an income and experience. Should I start on 100 ton crew boats or try to get on the largest vessel I can?
I am sure this has been covered here, I have read numerous posts just not this particular question.
Thanks!
If you’ve got a 50 ton Masters why not get an AB limited then try to get on a crew boat? Seems like you would make yourself more marketable and in a better position to start.
That said, if you stick with it (the goal of moving up) once you are hired somewhere, you can accumulate time quickly, learn, and move up quickly. The gulf is a good opportunity for many.
Some day you may want to go the unlimited route. None of your days under 200 tons would count.
You could always do the PMI workboat academy prob 1/2 if not more than 1/2 the cost of suny. You get a 500/1600 mate ocean/near coastal. That puts you up in the game quicker. Might be worth checking out. Plus you get all the certs upon graduating that will make you more valuable sooner. And it’s only 2 years long.
The crewboats would give you a good foundation on boat handling experience but I’ve seen alot of guys get stuck on the crewboats and decide to stay. There’s a big difference in running a crewboat or being an AB on the bigger boats. I got my 100 ton in the early 80’s and came to the oil patch at age 51 and went straight to a big anchorboat as an os and moved up from there. The company where I went to work recommended going on deck and get my bigger liscense and I’m glad I did. It took about 3 years to get my 500 ton. The company where I worked had their own training center, so I was in school almost every hitch. Hope this helps.
PMC is correct you may wanna work unlimited size vessels one day. If you can afford it go to the academy. With the direction the industry is going being a grad will definitely help in your job search. It will at least get you a reservation but it will still be up to you to earn the spot at the table.
Go to SUNY.
x2.
Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. A college degree and an unlimited license. If i could go back and start over i would go to an acadamy.
Stay off the Crew boats! andsmall Supply boats! if all possible stay out of the GOM. If you decide not to attend the acadamy get an AB and go to work on something with some tonnage. Not to sound to negative, cause the GOM has been good to me especially the DP part. Thats were the money is right now and will be for some time. If you can start out on a tug do it, you can always convert to something else , but it’s hard to make the swap otherwise. Ive held a Master 1600 O/C for some time and testing for my 3RD Unlimited in OCT. If I could do it all over I would have went to the Acadamy.
Since you already have a college degree it would make the most sense for you to do the M.S. / 3rd mate program at SUNY. Then you will have unlimited 3rd mate, and a master’s degree. You can probably do the M.S. / 3rd mate program in about three years. If you learned anything in college this should be easy for you. In your undergrad classes you will be competing with teenagers and kids in their 20’s. In your graduate classes, your classmates will be mostly unlimited masters and chief engineers — excellent mentors and people for you to network with throughout your career. You can get federal student loans with no interest while you are in school to pay for it all. If you already have student loans those can also be deferred with no interest while you are in school.
If you go the hawespipe route, it will take you six years (on an even time schedule) to get to 3rd mate, and eight years to get to master 1600. If you work on vessels under 200 tons, you will probably never get to 3rd mate, and it may take longer to get to master 1600. 720 days of your time for master 1600 must be on vessels over 100 tons.
The rules could be changed midstream to make it even harder to go the hawespipe route. The entire licensing system is rigged in favor of the academies and their grads. If you go the hawespipe route you will be at a significant disadvantage for your entire career.
Going to the academy is an absolute no-brainer.
100% on the mark!
Wow all of you act like the hawsepipe isn’t even a decent option anymore. Just because one way might be faster doesn’t make it the best way for everyone, and there are benefits to working your way up the hawsepipe.
Working your way up from deck on a crew boat or utility boat to unlimited is entirely possible. It might take longer, but none of that time is wasted. One of the best ways to learn is watch what the guy above you is doing right or wrong so you know how to handle a similar situation when it presents it’s self. From boat handling, to crew management, to working with the client. None of which can be taught in a class room, and all are what ultimately make or brake an officer.
Here’s a secret that nobody really talks about but the thing a 100 ton license allows you to do is fuck up and make mistakes and learn from then mainly because the scale of things are so much smaller. Backing up to a platform and misjudge you’re speed and distance and hit it a little to hard? If you’re on a small utility boat or crew boat not a big deal all you did was shake things up stairs on the platform, on a bigger boat you might have caused damage to the boat or platform. Those small boats use 2 inch hoses to transfer fuel, the big boats use 3 and 4 inch hoses. If you ever vent pray that you’re using a 2in hose because you can catch it in time and shut it off before you overflow you’re containment traps. Smaller boat’s smaller crews, learn how to work with one deck hand before you have to be the boss of several. Also it’s easy to see the big boats that ECO, HOS, and everyone else are building, and want to go straight to work with them. But with those big companies there tolerance for mistakes are smaller. They can be like that because everybody wants to work for them so they are more likely to fire someone and move on to the next guy then give one another chance.
Also working on small boats you learn to do it all. Pump water and fuel, work on engines, change oil and fuel filters, change out pumps. Because I did all this stuff I feel like I can talk to my engineer and follow what he is saying better, because I was doing it my self a few years ago.
Plenty of guys on this forum have worked there way up to Chief Mate having never been on anything other then a OSV. Now with ECO’s new ice breaker and construction vessel and the few boats that HOS have you can even stay in the oil field and get it. Thanks to the ability to get a 6000 OSV license you can get the sea time needed to get there, and now that the CG rescinded the class room requirements for the OICNW stuff it’s even easier. Even more of us have worked our way up from the small boats to our 500 and 1600 ton masters. It might have taken me 7 years to get my 500 master vs the 2 by going to PMI to get my mates, but I was earning a good pay check the whole time and have the added bonus of a master vs a mate license. Plus I have more real world experience. I might not be able to use the past 7 years of sea time to get my unlimited, but that’s a few years off. I’ve got enough on my plate and with the way things go in my life I will have more then enough sea time by the time I’m ready to work on getting my 3rd mates.
For you HornMnt I would say find any thing you could on deck in the GOM and get your 100 ton license in less then a year because you already have a 50 ton master. Then see if PMI is something your still interested in. Also since you have a degree SUNY has a masters program that you can apply for. If not then work a few years while taking your classes in your off time. In that time you will more then likely be working on non DP boats, which is a good thing, you will learn how to actually maneuver a boat around the platform VS just punching some buttons and letting the computer figure it out. Because of this experience you will know what to do when the computer takes a dump on you when you do get a big boat that has DP. Depending on what operation you are doing, you can just flip the switch take control and keep on working. The rig will never know the difference. Verses a guy who has only worked with DP and has to bail out as soon as something happens and now he has to go wake someone up who can hold the boat under the rig and get the job done.
Also realize that yes you can have you’re 1600 in as little as 5 years, but you will have very almost no time off your either at work or school. Especially when you are going from your 100 ton to 500 ton master because as soon as you get your 100 ton you have to start working on your classes for your 500 ton. If you have a family to think of this can be a huge strain on them. So keep it in your mind that it might take a few years longer then you originally planned.
All of the above said, you are coming along at a very peculiar time. The CG have released several proposed changes to the way one moves up the hawsepipe. It will ultimately makes it easier for one to move up, but can be frustrating to one caught in the middle of upgrading and then to have all the rules change. Unfortunately nobody knows when these changes will be made and what exactly they will be.
Now if you where a young guy straight out of high school and wanted to go to sea I would tell them to go straight to an Academy and would actually kick them in the ass till they do if I was giving the opportunity. But somebody who’s a little older, with some responsibilities, a small license, and some sea time other options should be considered.
I can agree with jemplayer from experience. The academy route could be great if you want a masters degree and to not have a job for three more years, but if your anything like me you gotta work. I started with nothing about 12-13 years ago and now I’m sitting for CM oceans. (I took about 8 years to get 1600 master.) I made a decent living the whole time and feel the experience gained on the small boats has helped tremendously on the ships. It’s the hard way for sure. There were times I wanted to give it all up and one year I only saw the wife 28 days… out of over 365. With a 50 ton you probably could do it in a little less time though. The academy route could get you to 2nd mate/1600 master in less time with less trouble, but… You have to decide what’s right for your situation. If I was 17, single and could do it again, I’d probably do the academy, maybe…
[QUOTE=Jemplayer;71791]Wow all of you act like the hawsepipe isn’t even a decent option anymore. Just because one way might be faster doesn’t make it the best way for everyone, and there are benefits to working your way up the hawsepipe.
Working your way up from deck on a crew boat or utility boat to unlimited is entirely possible. It might take longer, but none of that time is wasted. One of the best ways to learn is watch what the guy above you is doing right or wrong so you know how to handle a similar situation when it presents it’s self. From boat handling, to crew management, to working with the client. None of which can be taught in a class room, and all are what ultimately make or brake an officer.
Here’s a secret that nobody really talks about but the thing a 100 ton license allows you to do is fuck up and make mistakes and learn from then mainly because the scale of things are so much smaller. Backing up to a platform and misjudge you’re speed and distance and hit it a little to hard? If you’re on a small utility boat or crew boat not a big deal all you did was shake things up stairs on the platform, on a bigger boat you might have caused damage to the boat or platform. Those small boats use 2 inch hoses to transfer fuel, the big boats use 3 and 4 inch hoses. If you ever vent pray that you’re using a 2in hose because you can catch it in time and shut it off before you overflow you’re containment traps. Smaller boat’s smaller crews, learn how to work with one deck hand before you have to be the boss of several. Also it’s easy to see the big boats that ECO, HOS, and everyone else are building, and want to go straight to work with them. But with those big companies there tolerance for mistakes are smaller. They can be like that because everybody wants to work for them so they are more likely to fire someone and move on to the next guy then give one another chance.
Also working on small boats you learn to do it all. Pump water and fuel, work on engines, change oil and fuel filters, change out pumps. Because I did all this stuff I feel like I can talk to my engineer and follow what he is saying better, because I was doing it my self a few years ago.
Plenty of guys on this forum have worked there way up to Chief Mate having never been on anything other then a OSV. Now with ECO’s new ice breaker and construction vessel and the few boats that HOS have you can even stay in the oil field and get it. Thanks to the ability to get a 6000 OSV license you can get the sea time needed to get there, and now that the CG rescinded the class room requirements for the OICNW stuff it’s even easier. Even more of us have worked our way up from the small boats to our 500 and 1600 ton masters. It might have taken me 7 years to get my 500 master vs the 2 by going to PMI to get my mates, but I was earning a good pay check the whole time and have the added bonus of a master vs a mate license. Plus I have more real world experience. I might not be able to use the past 7 years of sea time to get my unlimited, but that’s a few years off. I’ve got enough on my plate and with the way things go in my life I will have more then enough sea time by the time I’m ready to work on getting my 3rd mates.
For you HornMnt I would say find any thing you could on deck in the GOM and get your 100 ton license in less then a year because you already have a 50 ton master. Then see if PMI is something your still interested in. Also since you have a degree SUNY has a masters program that you can apply for. If not then work a few years while taking your classes in your off time. In that time you will more then likely be working on non DP boats, which is a good thing, you will learn how to actually maneuver a boat around the platform VS just punching some buttons and letting the computer figure it out. Because of this experience you will know what to do when the computer takes a dump on you when you do get a big boat that has DP. Depending on what operation you are doing, you can just flip the switch take control and keep on working. The rig will never know the difference. Verses a guy who has only worked with DP and has to bail out as soon as something happens and now he has to go wake someone up who can hold the boat under the rig and get the job done.
Also realize that yes you can have you’re 1600 in as little as 5 years, but you will have very almost no time off your either at work or school. Especially when you are going from your 100 ton to 500 ton master because as soon as you get your 100 ton you have to start working on your classes for your 500 ton. If you have a family to think of this can be a huge strain on them. So keep it in your mind that it might take a few years longer then you originally planned.
All of the above said, you are coming along at a very peculiar time. The CG have released several proposed changes to the way one moves up the hawsepipe. It will ultimately makes it easier for one to move up, but can be frustrating to one caught in the middle of upgrading and then to have all the rules change. Unfortunately nobody knows when these changes will be made and what exactly they will be.
Now if you where a young guy straight out of high school and wanted to go to sea I would tell them to go straight to an Academy and would actually kick them in the ass till they do if I was giving the opportunity. But somebody who’s a little older, with some responsibilities, a small license, and some sea time other options should be considered.[/QUOTE]
Gemplayer, well thought out and eloquently stated. I could not agree with you more.
Hornmtn, you are getting a broad range of opinions here, good information to read and digest.
Is your Master 50 Inland or NC? If inland, it will take a little longer to upgrade to Master 100 NC.
[QUOTE=hornmtn;71763]I have a 50 ton lic and am considering starting as an OS with the goal of 1600 Master. I have a college degree. I have considered and been accepted to SUNY maritime, but from the people I have spoked with I can make 1600 in 5 years or so. I would rather save the money paying for SUNY and make an income and experience. Should I start on 100 ton crew boats or try to get on the largest vessel I can?
I am sure this has been covered here, I have read numerous posts just not this particular question.
Thanks![/QUOTE]
I hesitate to give advice to anyone in situations like this but - You could get started at SUNY and if you get into a tight squeeze financially you could drop out and try to ship out. You’d benefit from the contacts, I don’t know if the school time would get counted as sea time etc but I don’t see how it could hurt to at least try SUNY.
Jemplayer’s post is a good one also.
K.C.
Here is another two year AAS / limited USCG license option at SUNY. Given that you already have a college degree, and a 50 ton license, you might be able to do this option in less than two years.
Associate in Applied Science
Professional Education and Training (PET) Department
The Professional Education and Training Department is responsible for the administration of the College’s two Associate Degree and Limited License Programs, both of which are approved by the U.S. Coast Guard:
PET Department Faculty
Industry Advisory Board
Mission and Goals
Tractor Tug
Associate in Applied Science (Deck) – MTSVO-D:
MTSVO - D Curriculum
This 2-year program provides trained personnel to serve in a variety of positions within the maritime industry either afloat or ashore. The Associate’s Degree provides the student with a strong general education component coupled with professional training. A U.S. Coast Guard issued Merchant Mariner Credential allows students who successfully complete the program to work on various types of vessels within the limitations of the individual’s credential. Positions afloat include working on tugboats, towboats, offshore supply vessels, dredges, or passenger vessels – including dinner cruise boats, casino vessels, or sightseeing boats.
Successful completion of the degree requirements and U.S. Coast Guard approved Mate 500 or 1,600 Gross Ton Ocean or Near Coastal Program will afford the student the opportunity to sit for a license as Mate of Ocean or Near Coastal Steam or Motor Vessels of either 500 or 1,600 Gross Tons. Upon successfully completing the exam, the student will receive a Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Credential also endorsed as Officer-in-Charge of a Navigational Watch, Lifeboatman, Able Seaman-Unlimited, Ordinary Seaman, Wiper and Stewards Department (Food Handler). Other endorsements may be added if specific required training is satisfactorily completed.
Articulated Tug/BargeArticulated Tug Barge (ATB)
Associate in Applied Science (Engine) – MTSVO-E:
MTSVO - E Curriculum
This 2-year program provides trained personnel to serve in a variety of positions within the maritime industry either afloat or ashore. The Associate’s Degree provides the student with a strong general education component coupled with professional training. A U.S. Coast Guard issued Merchant Mariner Credential allows students who successfully complete the program to work on various types of vessels within the limitations of the individual’s credential. Positions afloat include working on tugboats, towboats, offshore supply vessels, dredges, or passenger vessels – including dinner cruise boats, casino vessels, or sightseeing boats.
Successful completion of the degree requirements and U.S. Coast Guard approved 30-month Assistant Engineer (Limited-Oceans) Program will afford the student the opportunity to sit for a license as Assistant Engineer (Limited-Oceans) of steam and/or motor vessels, allowing the holder to serve within any horsepower limitations of any gross tons upon inland waters and of not more than 1,600 gross tons in Oceans, Near Coastal or Great Lakes service. Upon successfully completing the exam, the student will receive a Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Credential also endorsed as Officer-in-Charge of an Engineering Watch in a Manned Engine Room or Designated Duty Engineer in a Periodically Unmanned Engine Room, Lifeboatman, Qualified Member of The Engine Department (all ratings except Deck Engine Mechanic and Engineman), Ordinary Seaman, Wiper and Stewards Department (Food Handler). Other endorsements may be added if specific required training is satisfactorily completed.
This gives you a choice of three years for an accredited M.S. degree and 3rd mate vs. two years of an AAS and a limited license. I think the three year program remains the best choice for most people.
There is a lot of merit to what Jemplayer and others have said in favor of the hawespipe route. I agree that hands on small vessel experience produces better mariners than an academy. But so what? You can still get small vessel experience after the academy.
While the USCG may currently be reducing classroom training requirements for the hawespipe route to meet the oil patch’s current needs for manpower, the oil boom will eventually end. The long term international and US trend is toward greater educational requirements, not less. The academies are constantly fighting to restrict the hawespipe route.
Frankly, most people with a college degree would still be a lot better off over the short run and over the long run doing a three year 3rd mate / M.S. program.
[QUOTE=hornmtn;71763]I have a 50 ton lic and am considering starting as an OS with the goal of 1600 Master. I have a college degree. I have considered and been accepted to SUNY maritime, but from the people I have spoked with I can make 1600 in 5 years or so. I would rather save the money paying for SUNY and make an income and experience. Should I start on 100 ton crew boats or try to get on the largest vessel I can?
I am sure this has been covered here, I have read numerous posts just not this particular question.
Thanks![/QUOTE]
If you go to an academy, you will also get to Master 1600 in slightly more than 5 years, and youll have a college degree. ( Disclaimer: I am a SUNY graduate, class of '80)
[QUOTE=hornmtn;71763]I have a 50 ton lic and am considering starting as an OS with the goal of 1600 Master. I have a college degree. I have considered and been accepted to SUNY maritime, but from the people I have spoked with I can make 1600 in 5 years or so. I would rather save the money paying for SUNY and make an income and experience. Should I start on 100 ton crew boats or try to get on the largest vessel I can?
I am sure this has been covered here, I have read numerous posts just not this particular question.
Thanks![/QUOTE]
My answer to this is the bigger vessel is the best choice.
Jemplayer is right that there is a lot to be learned on 100 ton vessels. You can learn a wide range of jobs. Also on a smaller vessel there is no place to hide. A single crew member makes up a large percentage of the crew, no room for deadwood
But on a larger vessel there is more total expertise, it’s just that it is divvied up among more people.
On a small vessel without an engineer for example the operator might have to check fluids etc but relies upon outside help for the most difficult tasks. On a larger vessel the chief engineer has spend a good part of his career learning increasingly difficult tasks on a complex engineering system.
It’s the same on deck, the reason why senior officers get canned on a larger vessel for screwing up isn’t because there are more people willing to do the job, it’s because, among other reasons, losing say, half a day because of a mishap or screw up is a bigger deal. The larger the vessel the higher the daily rate, the more the cost of a delay. The more complex and more expensive operations requires a deeper understanding. It’s harder to get out of a jam when things go wrong. Also an operation that is having lots of small problems is likely at higher risk for larger problems.
Compare the owner of a mom and pop store to a clerk at MegaMart. Mom and Pop have to have a wider range of skills then the clerk but if the clerk manages to learn accounting or inventory or what have you and eventually becomes CEO, that clerk will have mastered skills that Mom or Pop are not even aware of.
K.C.
Guys thank you all for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it!
Water-I have a 50 ton NC with towing endorsement, os/wiper, twic
I have applied several places and it seems that getting hired as an OS is more difficult than I would have thought. I have a degree from The Citadel, and was hoping to start out at the bottom and work my way up vs going back to school for 3 yrs at SUNY, I started at the bottom in the construction industry and found the experience at the very helpful throughout my career.
Thanks again for all the responses, hope you are all enjoying the 4th of July.
Contact the placement office and more importantly the alumni office at The Citadel. I assume that there must be an alumni group website? Somewhere offshore or in shipping there are alumni of The Citadel that want to hire you. That is your open door.
You might want to consider starting as a roustabout on an offshore rig or drillship.