The system is currently NOT WORKING. The culture is not changing. Abusers are still tolerated despite it all.
Huge difference between an excuse and a warning. So many accounts of harassment start off with “I was unprepared for the level of harassment”.
Play a guitar, softly beat a drum & sing a sad song about racism/sexism all you want but if it isn’t reported then it didn’t happen. I’ve seen a few racists & misogynists fired over the years & it all started with a report. The system is working but not enough of us are working it hard enough. As a bystander/witness of sexism I have used the tools to remedy a situation. I know the system can work. I’ve seen others use it too. It’s not “an old management style” & it does hold people accountable because they have to use their real names & officially say something did or did not happen.
Just saying “the level of harassment”, it should be 0, anything more than that should not be tolerated and those people should be removed from the vessel. Just because of what went on years ago, and how the industry was and is, that is the problem, why can’t we change the mentality, hold each other accountable.
Sand Pebble you are absolutely right - It does need to be reported and it is good to hear the examples above of people having to face the consequences. However I bet more people are getting away with it than are loosing their job in the industry. It’s not about catching people and getting them run off or fired.
I agree with Slick_Cam:
The system is currently NOT WORKING. The culture is not changing. Abusers are still tolerated despite it all.
Huge difference between an excuse and a warning. So many accounts of harassment start off with “I was unprepared for the level of harassment”.
The Culture does need to change and that will start by us understanding how what people say and do affect people in a huge array of different ways. I SHOULDN’T HAVE TO GO TO WORK AND PREPARE FOR ANY KIND OF HARASSMENT.
The situation comes down to this: a newbie has the ability to scupper the career and pension of a lifetime professional mariner. The harasser, the lifetime professional, the person causing their own demise because of their personality flaws, can only change the situation by changing their personality. How many people you know have successfully changed their personality?
Ship’s officers with long service with each other are bound to each other by tribal loyalty. It’s more important to keep the old crew together, than to get rid of a good person for a newbie.
So why should we expect any of this to be easy?
Where I work, we tell newbies right away that the work will be hard, and that no one wants to hear their complaints. This is common to most of the industry, I think. So, dedicated newbies internalize this and make a conscious effort not to complain about anything.
Harassers make use of this right away. Heard the person who says, “I”m an equal opportunity asshole–I”m tough on everyone”? But very often this person is far rougher on some people than others. And when the newbie complains, the old hands says, “We’ll, Jerry is hard on everyone. The new person is just a snowflake…” Newbies know they’re at the bottom of the hierarchy. What use complaining?
Complain, and you often have one chance for resolution, or your goose is cooked. If no one takes action you’re left to the mercies of the harasser and their cronies. With the added joy of being labeled a rat and a troublemaker…
It’s easiest to get rid of the person making the complaint. Technically proficient mariners are gold. Newbies are nothing. It’s usually easiest to let things “Sort themselves out”, i.e., wait it out until the newbie quits. The fear of lawsuits in this regard is overblown, and the legal fees trivial compared to losing seasoned crew members.
A fleet manager has only two options for dealing with a harraser: demand a personality change, or can them. Most people can’t change their personality, and will take any excuse not to try. If they feel protected by the power structure of a ship’s organization/union/company, they are more likely to retaliate in cunning ways against their accuser, and force them out.
This leaves the fleet manager the option of firing the harasser. Would a union can a person two years away from retirement and have him lose their pension? Not likely. That will result in a lawsuit, and worse yet, will be an offense to tribal loyalties.
From top to bottom, a new person coming into the industry has impediments working against reporting a situation. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t. That’s the best way. But they know they are as likely to suffer repercussions as the harasser. The newbie risks a lot by reporting. The harasser risks comparatively little by doing what they’v always done.
The only solution is to have rules, and to enforce both the letter and the spirit of those rules without exception. No loopholes, no excuses. Otherwise tribal loyalties will trump the rules every time.
3 examples of the system working that quickly comes to mind for me.
I once worked with 2 bridge officers, an African American from Connecticut & a white part time rancher from Texas. The Texian was fidgety & was always whittling or using a small piece of line to tie different knots. He left a noose laying around once & the guy from Connecticut told him that he found nooses offensive & asked him not make them when he was around. The Texian didn’t find nooses offensive, thought it was silly & left a noose in the same place the next day for spite. The Texan was sent back to his ranch at the next port call, had to get a lot more training & lost several months of wages. Both were nice guys & as far as I know neither had any more problems after that.
I had an A/E make some religious comments about morality around a lesbian AB. I couldn’t put my finger exactly on what was wrong with what he was saying but I knew something was off. I felt uncomfortable being around it. My company had a policy on the books about sexism & discussing religion so I gave him a verbal warning & logged that we had a meeting about company policies & tolerance. He got the point. Never heard him bring up the subject again. I don’t know if the AB was offended or not but it was best to put a stop to that stuff asap.
Most recently an A/E inappropriately touched a client rep while at a restaurant bar after a long voyage. A few people saw it, she reported it & the dude was on a flight back home in 24 hours. The master wanted him off the ship asap to conduct the investigation because he didn’t want the A/E trying to influence the crewmembers who were at the restaurant bar. The A/E was a long term hand but the master like his job more than the A/E & didn’t want any funny business. The A/E resigned the same day he made it home because he knew he would be fired & rather quit first.
I would like to think the system works most of the time. I know it has from my experiences. Investors don’t want racists & misogynists working for them because they hurt the bottom line. I know for sure some slip through the cracks & apparently some unions & companies have larger cracks than others but all we can do it keep working the system to get rid of the assholes & re-train the ones who are savable. Unfortunately, its possible the same unions that we have to prevent workers from being fired without justifiable cause might unintentionally be working against victims of sexual harassment. The 3 instances above were all with nonunion companies & management made those quick decisions based on the bottom line & didn’t need to go through a union to fire anyone.
I’m sorry, my name is not Ryan. It’s Billy Jackson.
That was an excellent post and it applies to pretty much any industry, but with the added issue that on a boat/ship you are in a confined space with the person you just accused, all his buddies, and no easy way to leave.
At flight school we got the following cautionary tale:
At the Pan Am base in Germany, the pilots had gotten into the habit of cutting out photos from porn mags and taping them under the cap you can pop off the yoke. One new guy was having a fit about it, it offended his sensibilities. The chief pilot told him it was a lot easier to transfer one guy than train the other 100 to quit doing something and away he went 
The airline industry used to be horrendously racist, but enough women persisted that a critical mass was reached and that crap generally does not go on anymore anything like the old days when the stewardesses were referred to as “menu items”.
There is also ageism in addition to racism and sexism in this industry. Many of us are older hands and we have sat back and witnessed younger employees come in and get promoted, only to move on. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum. No matter how well experienced and qualified we grey heads are. This is very rampant in Federal service.
This is on point
*Someone posted the following in another thread…Keeping a Man’s World for the men…what the hell is this guy talking about? This is what’s wrong.
I wonder if there would ever be an argument for an all woman shipping line.
Call it something like “Femway Marine International”. You would think that
would be a utopia for female mariners.
I once knew a woman who was a journalist. She was telling me about
attending a convention of those in her line of work. One of the topics was
this one leading national publishing corporation that only had men working there. Of course there was a barrage of questions from females as to why this was. They didn’t like the answer at all. That corporation was owned by a woman. She also mentioned that if that corporation were to be forced to hire women it would be in a separate division formed just for the purpose and there would always be an EVEN number of women working there)
In my whole life I’ve noticed women wanting into the male dominated work places and almost immediately there were complaints of sexual harassment.
Even as a little boy going to the YMCA with my father I noticed all of the girls
there throwing their weight around with the younger boys. When I was confronted by one I asked her why she didn’t just go back to the YWCA and she curtly told me because her mom wouldn’t belong to the YWCA.
A couple of years later my mom signed up for a tennis class at the YWCA and made the mistake of taking me. I sat on a bench to watch (and stay out of trouble) and noticed all of the scornful looks I was getting from women of all ages. I guess mom noticed it because she quit the class and took us home and never returned there. This YWCA went out of business in the 90’s and has been sitting there since for sale. The city has offered to tear it down if they will donate the lot it sits on to the city. .The answer is always…no. (I figure this is because it is always the men of the town’s council doing the asking) We had a woman Mayor for a term but she wouldn’t dignify the YWCA women’s plight by asking them, saying that they have already been asked. (what’s that tell you)
Yeh, I think we are all scratching our heads at that post.
I can assure you, with absolute certainty, that the President of AMO would do absolutely nothing if this had been reported to him other than possibly threaten the career of the person bringing the information forward.
Can you give me one example of an officer being punished by AMO for sexual misconduct?
It doesn’t happen at AMO, or MMP, or MEBA either.
It just doesn’t happen
Disagree. Mr Doell is an upstanding leader and unlike the prior administration.
With the caveat that I’m an AMO retiree - for the last three years - a message for SaltyDog:
Paul Doell WOULD NOT tolerate ANY sexual harassment/misconduct! ! !
In another matter, as my retirement approached, one could not help but notice that the industry was going through a change - and the noob’s coming into the pipe-line were not of the same rough-hewn timber of the past. It was sub-consciously infuriating that the noobs of the late 2000’s seem to be mostly complainers. Even when the women came aboard in the late 90’s & early 2000’s, they were tough! ! ! But in my last year, I had the pleasure of a brand-new 3/M tell me, that he didn’t like the way I was talking to him, as I was pointedly informing him that he was a constant fk-up, in language that WAS NOT foul. . [no F-bombs, no name calling] My final words to him was that he had 2 ears, 2 eyes, and one mouth - and use them accordingly! !
How does this dovetail into this thread? In reading the leading MLAA article, the author wrote "I’ve had old men thinking they were looking out for me and come up to me and tell me to put longer shorts on, or to wear less tight clothes.
On a ship I’ve had someone try to get me written up for walking down to get a snack in shorts and a tank top and l’ve never had an issue telling them to fuck off, because it’s my body and I can dress however l’d like."
Well, here’s the problem with that: She CAN dress however she likes - ONLY IN HER CABIN! ! The rest of the time she’s either wearing clothing REQUIRED for work [boilersuit in ER or working on deck/“professional attire” or company provided coveralls on watch". If she’s on her personal time, Going to the galley for some chow or a snack, or hanging in the lounge, it Hass to be appropriate. It can’t be a baby doll nightgown with fuzzy slippers, or a halter top and short-shorts showing camel toe. and with today’s environment, I don’t know if I could even sign up for yoga pants and a crop top! That would be OK going to the gym for certain, but not going down the passageway for food Or lounge.
Her sense of entitlement runs right up against “professional decorum”. When I sailed Master on MSC special mission ships, I ran across some skimpily and provocativly attired women in the P-ways. They were directed to “dress appropriately” in the public areas which was defined as ANY SPACE outside of their cabin.
There is no way to justify a “crop-top” exposing side-boob or bottom-boob, even on the way to the gym. . . And someone needs to assume the leadership roll and inform them of such.
With regards to sexual harassment, I had the misfortune to have to deal with male>female harassment, and male>male harassment. With regards to the former, in 2004 or so, one of the mission specialists [a rather creepy individual at that] was trying to make thins happen with a female unlicensed engineer. She made a complaint to her department head that he was “stalking” her, trying to make things happen. The stalker was counseled in the presence of his department head, directed to have no further contact with her, and things calmed down. Some time later, he was observed entering the ER following her [he having no business being in the ER]. This time, the full weight of the company was brought to bear-the shipping company & the mission specialists company. All harassment stopped - but it almost came to a “mission-aboard” incident. . . Maybe a month later, the female was put off on a MEDIVAC for “female issues”. . .
Now the kicker?? Two months later, when the ship was in the shipyard, she flew back to be with the mission specialist while the ship was in the yard. . .
In the case of the male>male harassment, incredulously the shipping company wanted me to put the victim off at the next port, instead of the perpetrator. . . It took some doing, but I finally prevailed that the accused needed to go, not the victim [who wanted to remain aboard], while the full investigation continued. The shipping company didn’t want to hear that the victim would be filing a “sexual-harassment” suit against them for creating a “hostile workplace”.
From my arm-chair, it’s easy to wave my hand and roll my eyes at the current status. I don’t miss it. For the old-guys who think they can pressure someone into their cabin, you’re wrong.
For the noobs who think they have the same rights as the older/wiser ones, you’re wrong too.
For the women who thing they can dress ANYWAY they want, because it’s their right - you’re wrong.
For the noobs - if you are being harassed, I mean ‘creepy’, elevator-eyes, & sexual speech then you better SAY IT LOUD! ! ! Notify the chain-of-command, and if the COC is the perpetrator, notify the DPA. You have two feet - use them! ! ! If you are unsafe, protect yourself!! Just don’t “wish it away”. TAKE ACTION.
Have to disagree with you on this one. No reason that anybody should have to put on coveralls to go down to the galley and grab some pop tarts during their off time. Most ships I’ve been on have a rule of closed toed shoes outside of your cabin, but that’s where the dress code ends.
Crap. I left out a sentence, and I’ll have to edit it for it.
Of course I’m not suggesting putting on a boiler suit to go to the galley. Whenever I went, I‘d put on A T-shirt and shorts, and as you said no flip-flops or open toe’d shoes. But for a female to walk out of her cabin wearing a baby doll nightgown and fuzzy slippers is a stretch.
I mean, yea, but that’s not what she said and you quoted. Wearing short shorts and leggings to go to the gym or whatever while she’s off is fine. Nobody should be giving her shit about it, since most of them are most likely old enough to have kids her age. Think they wouldn’t mind their drunk buddies saying the same shit about their own kids?
Keep sucking on the Bromide son.
Seasmaster shared a bit of wisdom, go with it.