“MM&P will continue to need mates and will still have four FOS LMSRs.”
From todays Wheelhouse Weekly -
The new Pasha ships under M.M. & P. contract remain so only because they were determined to be replacement ships. Anything new will undoubtedly go to AMO. Hell, I could be wrong; maybe Pasha has grown to love us. I spoke with George Pasha lV
when he boarded a ship I was in, and he and his wife were very likeable and friendly, but who knows…
It’s incredible all of the unions can’t come together and form one force. Regardless of what would be fair or who would complain, one union would absolutely be in the best interest of the US mariner no?
Probably AMO.
One union would be the best for sure. Seems like AMO and MEBA want to work together. I know MEBA and AMO members think that it would be powerful and would like them to eventually merge in some sort of way. Both AMO and MEBA are in good financial situations and are getting along really well. I agree, that if the US fleet expands rapidly companies will not be able to crew ships without using these two Unions together. I hope AMO and MEBA bid on future contracts together.
I have friends in all both AMO and MEBA. I can tell you that there are significant number of members in both Unions that loudly express their dislike for the MM&P and their tactics.
My understanding is that the unions are actually working on an agreement that will provide a unified front. Obviously, this will take time and some will oppose it.
And I recall Pasha’s anger over losing that argument. That’s why I think if given the chance they’d bail on us without thinking twice.
I bet AMO and MEBA are working together to provide a united front but I highly highly doubt MM&P is involved.
MM&P refused to respect MEBA and its deck officers. MM&P wouldn’t even agree to a fair deal regarding the pass through. The pass through was economically lopsided and MEBA was basically funding MM&P ALOT OF $ each year. MEBA wanted to get a deal that was economically even but MM&P refused so MEBA is ending it. And now you are saying all Unions are going to work towards a united front of some sort ?
MM&P doesn’t realize that both AMO and MEBA hate them and most importantly don’t need them. AMO has deck officers to help MEBA and MEBA has the engineers to help AMO. MM&P doesn’t bring anything to the table except from what I hear if the rumors are true; a plans financial disaster.
The one and only roadblock for creating one united deepsea maritime union is MM&P.
While it’s true I’m not up to date, being retired, I don’t understand your claim of undercutting. I never saw MM&P reducing contracts voluntarily.
I believe the two Third Mates demand was due to the Asia side, where multiple ports are called. As far as their job security, when did Third Mates ever have such?
My understanding of the pass-through was that the pension time and funding went to the MEBA individual’s MEBA plan. Is that incorrect?
The unions job is not necessarily that of “working with” the steamship lines. The point is to wrangle the best deal under current circumstances, and that often entails conflict.
Correct. And this was agreed to in the contract till one day they decided to say “nope! Not anymore. Do something about it.”
Pasha carried two third mates as well but that got cut in early 2020. It just wasn’t necessary in their eyes but they kept the extra third mate job open for the short hop between Oakland and LA.
Most of us had no problem with the MEBA pass through but the way the unions advertised it to cadets and prospective members was deliberately misleading. The script said “if we can’t fill a job— it goes to MEBA.” When folks logged in to check the shipping list or assignment history and saw this “MEBA-A, MEBA-B” book nonsense, it really pissed a lot of folks off. MEBA-A should have been ranked immediately below any applicant in one of our halls if other dues-paying members were present. The perceived insult and lack of representation in a job call was what rubbed most the wrong way. Aboard ship I saw no difference between us and them. Because there is none — I have many friends (most, in fact) with MEBA and AMO.
The beef SHOULD lie with leadership but sadly, some shit on any and every MMP member like it’s also their fault. I literally just had this conversation with an AMO friend yesterday.
Is the MEBA- A book frustration thing you talk about in regards to the MEBA engineers taking MM&P jobs?
I know MEBA pass through group 1 mates were only allowed to bid on MM&P jobs as a C book and only could bid on our own express ship contracts as a B book! Basically it also prevented MEBA mates from work on our own contracted express ships that were allowed to be called in MM&P halls first.
This whole MEBA and MM&P passthrough drama stems from when MEBA gave MM&P a sweetheart deal by allowing 4 express ships to be called in MM&P halls and filled by their members in exchange for a pass through list. Over time MM&P made changes to the pass through making it more advantageous for them and very confusing until one day the MEBA members finally screamed loud enough to a new leadership that actually listened. But MM&P leadership is acting like those ships are their contracts which they aren’t.
I think once this whole drama ends in October when all contracted MEBA ships/ jobs are called in MEBA halls and all MM&P ships/ jobs are called in MM&P halls, things will start to calm down and normalize.
I’ll have to call one of my MEBA buddies today. I thought MM&P applicants had status over pass-through mates. I don’t recall ever seeing MEBA members in any registered list. Anyway, I’m kind of doubting Sailor51’s bona fides, as much of what he wrote seems like personal bias.
Sailor51, what is your affiliation?
They aren’t lowering contracts voluntarily but they also are not demanding the same increases in wages that other unions are winning. I just don’t understand the leaderships strategy. For example, they demand and stand tough against some companies while going easy and settling with others. There’s no consistency and I think companies and members see through that. Either way it’s not a good look.
In terms of the third mate job security you ask about. AMO and MEBA have more job security than MMP mates so shouldn’t MMP be making more?
In other words APL third mates when there were two onboard were making less than their counterparts at AMO and MEBA. But had the least amount of job security. Why not agree to eliminate the 2nd 3rd mates in exchange for contracts on these new ships.
MMP was willing to die on a hill for for two third mates on those ships when there are ships with way more demanding schedules that need them. Yes I get that you don’t necessarily “work with” a company but you have to be reasonable and forward thinking. As a result of irrational people, MMP could loose out on future opportunities. I’m thinking about Mearsk now. Mearsk has both AMO and MEBA top to bottom ships as well. Would they want MMP either if the US fleet expands and companies like APL are going the other way?
Every company working under MSP wants every union involved to ensure manning is complete and available. You should provide data to back your job security claims. I’m genuinely interested.
Edit: I’m pretty sure AMO has MSP contracts that are exclusive to them, so I’m speaking in general terms.
Edit2: I brought up MSP since you mentioned Maersk
@AKBJR
You are retired I don’t have to explain myself to you nor am I required to. But if you care go into a hall and look at the tanker contract MMP is the only Union that allows two third mates on a tanker to be paid two different wages. One lower than another. AMO and MEBA on their contracts with two tanker third mates are paid equal and the same even if one doesn’t have their PIC.
Junior mates are the future and sticking it to them and sticking it to the applicants on crap contracts is a thing of the past. A union that prioritizes all members will succeed. But I am done ranting on this thread.
Standing up for not only your contract but others is what is going to improve everything. Questioning my allegiance after demanding change and improvements is old school and counterproductive. But whatever, I’ll just keep my mouth shut.
I know you have been out of the loop. My job security claims were in regard to how MMP vs other unions call jobs. AMO has perm jobs and MEBA is a mix. If you didn’t know MMP does not allow permanent 3m which is fine. But if you in a union that has no opportunity for permanent third mates you have to provide other incentives. Such as hmmmm HIGHER WAGES! If you don’t have higher wages and no job security why would anyone want to stay with your union?
And I’m saying this in specific regards to the 2 third mates on APL ships.
I don’t question your allegiance; was asking to which union you belong. You’re correct in not having to explain yourself to anyone.
I’m well aware that MM&P has no permanent 3rd Mates. Neither did MEBA when I was a member there, prior to joining MM&P.
I wasn’t aware of a two-tier wage scale for tanker 3rd Mates. Haven’t sailed in a tanker since the Eighties.
I cut names out for obvious reasons — but I have seen a “MEBA-A” walk in and snipe a G-Class ship from an Applicant who would have had it. The kid mentioned the old recruiting pitch about “if no MMP guys were present” from the career fair and got a shrug and “sucks to suck” from the guy who took the job. (Who was kicked off the pass through list anyway, and a total snake even as a shipmate.)
Thanks, Shooter. I admit to never having perused the MEBA list; rarely did I look at any other than the A list when looking, and only when trying to find a ship. I got my A Book pretty quickly because I took every sh*t job that was available.