I remember the academy graduate who joined my tug a couple weeks after his graduation. Once underway, while familiarizing him with the pilothouse, he pointed out that “I’ve got a bigger license than you.” Uh huh. What’s even better is that later that day, halfway between Maui and Kawaihae, while doing my rounds I found him happily swinging in a hammock he had strung up on the tow wire. Ignorance is bliss.
Agreed with all the above, but, you also have to take into consideration that CruiseWest doesn’t exactly pay top pay, or even close to it, so they end up with what they end up with on the bridge. Adding insult to injury, the new 3/M may have very well been working for a Master 100 or 500 GT due to the size of their vessels. <br><br>That being said, what type of talent do you think was attracted to these positions, considering the OSV and Towing segments were paying a pretty good day wage during ALL of these incidents? The guy you shit-canned because he was sleeping on watch? Who? The moron you caught in the galley reading a book, and eating a sandwich during his watch…as you negotiated the Mona Passage? Hmmmm?<br><br>Not casting any disparaging views on any segment of the Maritime Industry, but just what in creation do you think may have been the failures in any of these latest set of groundings?<br><br>Who’s doing whom an injustice? The employer(s)? The mariner(s)? <br><br>Opinions, anyone?
Blame can probably be shared by all parties. Employers desperately filling openings with whomever their personnel department has available; mariners being too trustful of new hires that are either lacking in experience or haven’t had ample time on a new vessel to be responsible for their own watch; and the ‘new guy’ that doesn’t know when to exercise a little humility and ask for help.<br><div>Many of us, in our own past, probably found ourselves in one or both of the latter two examples cited above, and through some miracle, gotten through a tough situation. That doesn’t excuse the reasons that put us in that situation, however, it points to the fact that this problem isn’t a new one. What is different now, from days gone by, it the constant reminder that accountability and culpability are the two watch words that threaten every masters continued employment.</div><br><div>Understandably, the master has always shouldered the burden of responsibility for the crew and vessel. Nowadays, with the likes of OPA 90, MARPOL, SOLAS, STCW, ISM (and a host of other alphabet soup acronyms) giving the master a bit more to do, the last thing said master should have to worry about is conducting on the job training for someone hired to fill a position of responsibility and competency. It only makes sense that this new hire (whether off another ship or straight from an academy) should have this experience to begin with. Such is often not the case. Academies need to do more to give cadets the skills they need to put to use the moment they show up on a vessel. Reading the accounts of current or recent cadets, it appears that too many of them spend more time behind a needle gun or paint brush than a radar or helm. What’s that all about? </div><br><div>Here is where employers are caught up in the crunch of supply and demand. As we all know, the shortage of knowledgeable, seasoned mariners is not going to resolve itself in the foreseeable future. Manning levels are diminishing, which only propagates the problem that started this discussion in the first place. </div><br><div>I don’t have any easy answers to the manning problem…sure wish I did. To alleviate this difficulty locally, no longer is <span style="text-decoration: underline;]anyone’s</span> past experience or credentials being taken for granted aboard my ship. To paraphrase what I believe <span style="font-style: italic;]anchorman</span> wrote earlier “I’m not even going to give Noah his own watch until he show’s me his stuff”. Smart thought we should all live by. It means some longer hours for the other mates and I, but that’s a small price to pay for ensuring that the ‘new guy’ is not put in a position where he says ‘I got the watch’ before he is actually ready for it. We all need our jobs and this added scrutiny of all new personnel seems to be the best way to ensure our future.</div><br>
I think “Tradition” tends to still get in the way of a lot of progression. Not that it’s anyones “fault”, but Academy’s still continue to teach in the “traditonal” sense, much as they have for a century or more, and a 3rd Mate’s ticket is still misunderstood by many in the industry, much as it has been for years. A lot of seasoned, and unseasoned, “traditionally” have considered a 3/M, or an academy grad as someone with a “big ticket” that knows, or should know what they are doing.<br><br>How in the world are we going to attract, and educate new entrants into the industry, when there so much we misconceive and misunderstand about it ourselves? How do we fix it? How do we better illuminate our industry?<br><br>Just a couple of more pennies for this mornings thought machine.
I think any 3/M should be able to hold a 4 hour watch without running aground. Day or night. In the case of the Empress, the only decision the mate had to make was to look at the chart, the GPS, and determine if he needed to turn left, right, stop, or call the captain. If you haven’t learned this much after 4 years at an academy, someone needs to start looking at the academies. <br><br>If you take the stance, get your mates license and then you start training for it. Why don’t we bypass the OS and AB phase and issue everyone a 3/M license and they can train for it later? <br><br>The 3/M license is a big license. It allows you to legally stand a watch on any size vessel of any type. Including passenger vessels with hundreds or thousands of people onboard. <br><br>So, after 4 years of academy training, if you can’t hold a watch, you can’t navigate, apparently you can’t be trusted to make any important decisions, exactly what can you do?<br><br>From what I have read in the Empress grounding, I think the Master will be found guilty of 46 5.29 and the Mate should be found guilty of 46 5.29 and 46 5.31. Both should have their license suspended. Under 46 5.31 the mate should have his reduced to an AB and be required to retest and be re-evaluated.
“As for me, all I know is I know nothing.” - Socrates
Keeping that in mind as a green mate, I always, always, ALWAYS called the captain with any doubts, questions or concerns. You’re licensed and therefore qualified to be there as the OICNW standing watch, but that doesn’t mean you’re experienced, regardless of where you went to school or how you earned your license.
The biggest problem at SUNY we had in the simulators was when the instructor created close quarters situations. The cadets in the lab would almost never pick the phone up and call the instructor (playing the role of the master,) instead trying to take care of the problem on their own, which almost always resulted in a collision or grounding.
They need to be scrubbed clean of the 1st Class cockiness or come to understand that the captain is not some monster unleashed from a cage with a simple phone call… he or she is just as interested in the safety and well-being of the crew, vessel, cargo and environment as you should be. Your phone call more than likely creates (or should create) a bond of trust, especially if you regularly demonstrate a willingness to reach out for answers or assistance.
(I realize this is in response to an old thread, apologies if I dredged up a dead topic.)
Never mind
5 year old thread - interesting.
No question that I will be sweating bullets the first few times on watch alone. The academys give you a foundation of knowledge but no way can they provide judgement. Judgement is a product of experience and experience will be limited on a training ship.
To avoid costly errors of judgement, perhaps a gradual transition into watching keeping could be incorprated into the new 3M experience. One option would be to take an approach similar to teen driving - a sort of learners permit for the first 30 days or so - where the 3M can not stand watch alone and must be accompanied by a more seasoned professional. At the end of the “Learners permit period”, the Captain can fill out an evaluation and decide whether to promote the greenhorn to full 3M. I can imaginecommercial shippers balking at this approach, saying ‘hey, I’m not paying for 2 crew to do the job of one’. That’s a fair pushback and a possible remedy would be reduced 3M learners pay until the FNG passes and get his full license.
Another approach - one that I prefer - would be where all schools set up cooperative education programs with select commercial shippers. In order to earn a 3M license, one must have X number of days sailing commercial with satisfactory performance appraisals from the Ship master. These could be completed during semester breaks or in lieu of a Seaterm. Cadets would be paid significantly less than 3M’s and would give companys a chance to try out a candidate for regular emplyment upon graduation.
I believe KP ships all cadets commercial, but some State schools will allow you to graduate without ever setting foot on a commercial vessel. Not good.
We all want the same thing - Commercial Shipping companies want new 3M’s who can hit the ground running and the new 3M’s want to be able to complete their watches without having to clean their shorts.
Hey C.Captain…
I triple dog dare you to read page 1&2 of this thread without having to reach for your Meds.
[QUOTE=ShooterMcGavin;100035]“As for me, all I know is I know nothing.” - Socrates
Keeping that in mind as a green mate, I always, always, ALWAYS called the captain with any doubts, questions or concerns. You’re licensed and therefore qualified to be there as the OICNW standing watch, but that doesn’t mean you’re experienced, regardless of where you went to school or how you earned your license.
The biggest problem at SUNY we had in the simulators was when the instructor created close quarters situations. The cadets in the lab would almost never pick the phone up and call the instructor (playing the role of the master,) instead trying to take care of the problem on their own, which almost always resulted in a collision or grounding.
They need to be scrubbed clean of the 1st Class cockiness or come to understand that the captain is not some monster unleashed from a cage with a simple phone call… he or she is just as interested in the safety and well-being of the crew, vessel, cargo and environment as you should be. Your phone call more than likely creates (or should create) a bond of trust, especially if you regularly demonstrate a willingness to reach out for answers or assistance.
(I realize this is in response to an old thread, apologies if I dredged up a dead topic.)[/QUOTE]
I am inclined to agree with your clearly well thought out and metered approach to the matter, but speaking from the position of a young buck who’s still trying to figure out which way the pointy end goes, for me the greater reservation comes from the fear that if I ask for too much help, or ask for help too often, I will either aggravate my superiors or be seen as totally incompetent. I can assure you that I am anything but cocky when it comes to my duties aboard ship, the trouble comes more from what I think is expected of me than from what I believe I can do myself.
I had never heard of the incident mentioned in this threads first post.
I found the NTSB report and it is a must read.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2008/MAR0802.pdf
Start at page 82. The transcript of bridge communitions prior & during the grounding. It reads like a disaster novel and will get any mariners heart racing.
It’s a mariners worse nightmare but fortunately there were no injuries.
PaddyWest,
I made a similar comment like yours (which I understand completely) to my first captain, a Kings Point graduate. He responded by simply saying, “If you’re not calling me as a new third mate, I’m wondering what the hell you’re doing up there. I’d rather you called me for nonsense than ignored the issue and let it turn into a potential disaster.”
Eventually the “new guy” jitters wear off, once you’re used to the equipment on the bridge and its quirks and gain a little confidence. Ultimately, you’ll find yourself calling the captain less and less. I’d argue that this is where a whole new set of issues are born; when the experienced become the complacent.
I would not judge all CMA people by the 3/M… I know who it was
On another note I just got some info from CMA that summer commercial cruises are now 90 days for cadets instead of 60, so that is one step in the right direction.
[QUOTE=rshrew;100198]I would not judge all CMA people by the 3/M… I know who it was[/QUOTE]
I’m not blaming this CMA 3/M at all. The report puts the majority of blame on the Captain for putting a new 3/M, ( his second day in the job) on the midnight watch unsupervised. I actually feel bad for him.
He should have known by the pucker of his asshole to speak up and say he wasn’t ready. If he didn’t have that pucker he would have fucked up later on anyways. The captain moving an “experienced” AB to his watch instead of moving the officers watch schedules around the allow himself to be available to the new 3rd was quite a fuck up. I’ve sailed with some people right out of school that could handle their watch within the first hitch, though that had more to do with their up bringing than education. At the end of the day though whether someone is a newly minted academy 3rd or a deckhand just making the step up, 90% will need some polishing. Hell the hawsepipe mate we just got on my boat has only driven once or twice before, he is still driving manually offshore to practice before we let him loose inside. Nothing against him, in fact from all other indications he is going to be a great addition. End of the day he is no more fit to stand his own watch than most of the class mates I graduated with. The only real difference is he knows he isn’t.
No you should he was an idiot and made all of us who prepared for our first watch look bad. That’s why his license was put in the paper shredder from what I heard.
Not sure what happened to the CMA 3/M but the Captain was immediately fired and the USCG suspended his license for 5 months. Not long after the incident, the cruise line went out of business and the ship is now owned by the Government.
There’s a few lessons learned in reading the NTSB report but end of the day - the whole thing is just sad.
You’ll probably study this casualty in your casualty analysis class senior year, so read up
[QUOTE=rshrew;100245]No you should he was an idiot and made all of us who prepared for our first watch look bad. That’s why his license was put in the paper shredder from what I heard.[/QUOTE]
I knew the mate from CMA… I would describe him as “ghetto”. One of the funniest moments of my life was riding jet skis in the delta in CA on the fourth of July and picking up some random drunk girls and having them ask me did you know that guy that hit the iceberg in Alaska. Nobody has hit an iceberg in Alaska so I said no but I asked what year and she spit it out so I mentioned the mates name and she was like YEAH that was my neighbor. She proceeded to tell me how ghetto he was and that he was an ass hole.