Do our Academys prepare 3rd Mates for thier first bridge watch?

guest · December 28, 2007, 1:58pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

All negligence from the captain aside, one of the smartest things one can do is learn to say, “I don’t know.” Or in this case, " Uh Cap, maybe I should have a mate accompany me tonight." The new 3rd must have thought it was going to feel great standing his first watch. How does it feel now?

otnmbrd · December 31, 2007, 7:01pm

Regarding Mr. Guest post of 12/23… Bullcrap… I would not consider ANY academy graduate over any other academy graduate to be either more or even equally “competent” to stand an in port or at sea watch without some form of oversight by the Master or Chief Mate on their initial sailing.

Many of us did this… most of us muddled through, and in time, those of us who were meant for this life, moved our licenses up and started sailing those “higher” licenses.

I don’t give a Rat’s Butt which school you went to or whether you came up the “Pipe”, your performnance will tell us all, just how good you are.

guest · January 21, 2008, 2:45pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

As a KP student and later grad of Texas A&M, I would say most cadets of the state schools don’t get NEARLY enough bridge time and of the KPers, some are so arrogant or believing themselves above learning something new, they give the others a bad name.

As far as all the state schools, save A&M, I have sailed aboard Cal Maritime’s ship and my exposure with their program leaves me wondering what the Coastie who signed off on it was thinking… Little navigation training until their final years… little hands on during senior bridge time (most never were on the bridge for a port transit the entire senior cruise)… way too much time spent on chipping a painting or tying pretty knots or working with canvas and too little time spent with safety work, navigation, ship handling, and other mate’s duties. If this is indicative of some of the other state schools, I can see why many feel unprepared for the job.

Say what you want about KP but upperclassmen always tried to educate their underclassmen. At Cal and Texa, it seemed many spent more time putting underclassmen down and letting them know they didn’t know jack than they did educating and helping. Also, all the pissing contests and primping/preening like madonas with little more than three months commercial time and a freshman cadet cruise would be funny except I know one day I’ll see one of those idiots and I can only hope they grow up before we meet.

It was really a disappointment to see this but I suppose I should be happy that most of these people don’t last.

guest · January 21, 2008, 6:52pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

I have had many grads come thru my enginerooms and most can handle a watch in short order provided they have experienced QMEDs on watch with them. KP grads don’t seem to be as “hands on” oriented as the Texas, Mass and Maine people but they are all well versed in the basics. When I was a newly minted engineer I realized that my diploma was only a license to learn. Almost all of the new grads today seem to be the same way. Down in the engineroom we’re doing well with hawsepipers and university graduates.

One thing I think the engine department has going for it is we are better operationally manned.We are always shorthanded but wipers, QMEDs and engineers work together and run a watch as a team. If that fellow on the Empress had an experienced qualified watchstanding AB on the bridge with him who had run that route before I wonder if the result would be have been the same?

Guest Engineer

guest · January 31, 2008, 12:47am

<strong>Guest:</strong>

Say what you’d like about KP cadets and graduates, but they are the only ones who continually get out there in the business while they are still at school, and get at least 300 legitimate days aboard REAL commercial ships…none of this “2 for 1” training ship nonesense. For what its worth though, I would propose having KPers go on a training cruise for their first 4 months in their sophomore year to learn the basics, and then do the 8 months in your junior year (of which I am doing right now) on commercial ships. There is something to be said about having your teachers on board while you first learn the ins and outs of the business.

I remember having a very unforgiving C/M and Captain (Texas A/M and SUNY, no coincidence) who seemed to forget that everyone starts somewhere, and that if they knew how the winds would shift when a cold front passes, then it should be common sense to me, commonly referred to as the “f***ing cadet.” While its good to learn some lessons the hard way, none of the mates on my ship had shot a star or sunline in well over 15 years, so that was yet another thing I had to teach myself.

Whether or not all KP grads are ready to stand a bridge watch - doubtful, even idiots manage to slip into such a fine school. I have, however, found an appropriate analogy for the training programs of KP vs. the State schools - Think of yourself as a personnel manager for Merrill Lynch :

You have 2 economics majors at competing universities (say Dartmouth and Princeton, reasonably equal in stature) that take the same courses and receive the same degree…except the Dartmouth grad spent an entire year trading on Wall Street (alone, with real money) under the tutelage of a team of experienced stock brokers, and the Princeton grad spent 6 months playing the internet stock game (play money, mind you) with the help of his class of 120 other students.

…Who is more prepared?

guest · February 1, 2008, 2:00pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

Sounds like another King Pointer that is full of himself. Thats why your Captain and C/M referred to you the “f***ing cadet.”

guest · February 1, 2008, 2:26pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

guest · February 1, 2008, 6:24pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

Haha, wow…You are really arrogant, just like KP guys are stereotyped. I have worked with some outstanding KP guys and some real bums from there. You are on arrogant little prick.

guest · February 3, 2008, 10:11pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

Sounds like a state school guy who cant think of a rebuttal to such an analogy other than something I clearly provided for you…thus describing myself as the “f***ng cadet”. You wouldnt know why they called me that though, which is the same problem with aforementioned Captain and C/M - because they never served as a real cadet. In no other institution is it as acceptable as it is in this situation for a boss/superior to not experience that which his subordinates are experiencing…just like this Captain and C/M (who called all cadets “the f***ing cadets”), who had never stepped foot on a ship without a license, and played the role of bitch to everyone else. Spare me your lectures about how it used to be, the whole argument of training ship vs. cadet shipping is apples and oranges.

I would say that hawsepipers are the only ones I respect more than fellow KPers, when it comes to knowing what life as a cadet is, mind you. I fully respect the license and position held by a captain, and that he/she has forgotten more than I’ve learned about sailing. As cadets, myself and my other sea partners have all appreciated any lesson a Mate/AB/Engineer/Captain/etc has offered to us, since we realized that we knew nothing. What we did not appreciate was the above implying that they had been in our situation and that they knew what we were feeling…the hawsepipers are always down to earth, know the ships inside out, and have a better appreciation for the deck work/unlicensed side of things than KPers will ever have - that I acknowledge. But some asshole SUNY grad playing relief Captain (of a ship that runs aground 3 months later in Egypt, putting the company under) telling me that he had it bad as a cadet cruising around Europe with a ton of his friends? No, spare me that lecture. I am wholeheartedly willing to accept lessons about navigation/meteo/shiphandling from the aforementioned, but I find no reason to consider his insight into the cadet experience (aboard real live commercial ships) as credible…unless he is a KP grad/hawsepiper.

Arrogant? Not so much. Realistic? Absolutely. There are bums everywhere, and after 3 years the distinction disappears, as was so eloquently put earlier. But after graduation - KP is clearly in the lead, as I constantly find myself (the cadet) giving pointers to our 3/M (at the direction of the Captain and C/M, who appreciate the KP program a little more than you), who just graduated from A&M. Funny - I and the engine cadet both have 3x as many commercial sea days as him. But you’re right - me getting out here into the REAL industry and cutting my teeth alone is definitely the same experience as going on a banana cruise with 130 of your friends to port for 5 days at a time.

Why do you think we are arrogant? We have to deal with assholes like you who give us a hard time while we are out doing something you never had the fortitude to do - like getting onto a ship with no friends behind you (1 sea partner in the opposite department), and learning everything the hard way.

“You are on arrogant little prick.” AND “Thats why your Captain and C/M referred to you the ‘f***ing cadet.’” I guess they didnt put as much of a premium on spellchecking and grammar at whatever institution you came from? Here I was thinking that technology could do everything…shucks, guess Im still the “f***ing cadet” at the end of the day.

Call me/us arrogant, but the arrogance is earned, quite unlike our state school counterparts…it’s why the government pays for our tuition!

Im sure that is enough ammo to piss you all off. Cheers.

argo · February 4, 2008, 10:22am

once school is over, its over. not everyone on the suny maritime cruise just partied on a “banana cruise”. there are people who used their time valuably at maritime and other state instiutions, as i am sure there are people at KP who did not.

also you dont always get 5 days in port, its usually 4, and you have watch and work sections so at MOST you had 3 days, and you still have inspections so you have maybe half of the day to go out, and then come back to your assigned hour depending on class. Also pray you didn’t get ED for some mundane slip that you made and have to work extra in port. why don’t you acknowledge that you really know nothing of other schools’ cadet experience?

i don’t see how you can represent all the students at KP, sure there are exemplary and talented students there, but i hear enough from my licensed professors who also teach at KP, that KP is mostly for “academy rejects” as in people who did’t make it to Annapolis or West Point. There is no “in the lead” statistic as I don’t see any official studies in the matter, its what you made of your time.

I’m sure if you went to A&M or SUNY Maritime, you’d still be an arrogant wise-ass and lecturing everyone on deck about every little detail. It’s not my fault that you don’t know how to make friends or were just SOL, and I don’t see how you can have a healthy career if you go blasting everyone on ship. they should just have a boat of all of yas and stick together like sardines.

I had a KP (he left KP for Maritime) shipmate (who I became friends with and he wasn’t an ass) my senior cruise and he told me his story. I think the KP cruises are good in that you have more one on one time with the officers, but on training cruises you also have a wider range of technology at your hands to learn, whereas on commercial your focused on that ship’s role. Basically he told me most KP’ers go out on tankers.

Honestly, I wish I shipped commercially like KP does at Maritime but not as much as you guys do, a mix of both would be best because the people on the training ship are paid to train you, whereas commercially they are not (as far as I know).

and who gives a shit that the government paid your tuition and its leash is on your neck now? Enjoy the Persian Gulf!

guest · February 5, 2008, 10:41am

<strong>Guest:</strong>

Kingfysh · February 5, 2008, 5:17pm

So, if KP guys are so great and they are a great investment for the government, why have the Feds recently started requiring that their graduates go to sea or join the military? A vague description of a maritime job no longer works. Like somebody above posted, I have worked with some great KP guys and some bums. I think you would fall into the latter category, you are just another KP kid that knows more than either the Captain or the Chief Mate.

fantailfreddy · February 5, 2008, 7:28pm

Still a student at CMA, and just dubbed one of the Company Chief Mates, I’ve been working on a more advanced training program for the cadets to cover the stuff that doesn’t get covered all that well in class. I shipped for 70 days with Maersk Lines last summer and I never touched a needle gun. My Mate was a hardass, he always had me plotting contacts, positions, celestial fixes, making radio calls, etc. and I feel better prepared as a result. Of course, one of my roommates sailed mainly as an AB and hardly ever saw the bridge on his cadet cruise. Like it’s been said before, the greatest deficiency cadets seem to have is real time experience on the bridge performing all of the duties of the standard mate. On the training ships, we have a Licensed Watch Officer looking over us, and there are 3-4 seniors on watch acting jointly as the Watch Officer. What does this mean? The only experience we have at sea as the acting mate is segmented, some of the standard duties are split among the seniors on watch, and, depending on how well the watchbill was put together, some seniors may not serve in every position, meaning that they’ll never get hands-on experience in certain disciplines.

My question to all of you real mates out there is this: where are most cadets lacking the most? Simply the fact that we’re inexperienced seems to be a familiar trait, but despite our lack of correct action, what tasks do we tend to outright not know? Like I said, I’ll be developing a training program and any input would help. Additionally, I’ve been putting together a website with lessons and tutorials for mariners at [http://deckskills.com](http://deckskills.com" title="Fantail Freddy’s Guide to Seamen) I would absolutely love to have part of the site open for commentary, suggestions, and lessons posted by real mariners. If you’d like to help, email me at deckskills@gmail.com.

Thanks, and I know we’re not perfect right when we come out, (believe me, I live with these people), but knowing that, don’t leave us alone on the bridge. If you know we’re absolutely fresh, help us out, leave detailed night orders, build a manual to help us get better accustomed to handling the ship, tell us the little particulars that make this ship unique, and physically stamp the captain’s phone number on our hands.

guest · February 5, 2008, 11:39pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

I thought it was Queen’s Point. Wow! I should stop reading this gossip and get my facts straight. gCaptain needs to eliminate the forum. Nothing professional about a bunch of immature cadets/mates boasting about their federal education or their huge license on which they actual don’t sail on. Yeah, your a Master Mariner. We all get it. I like it when they put Master Mariner before their name. Master Mariner! What ship have you commanded lately? That’s what I thought.

guest · February 8, 2008, 6:08pm

<strong>Guest:</strong>

Just a few thoughts concerning the oh-so-eloquent and well-put responses to my accusations against the State Maritime schools…actually moreso the dumbasses who tried to “argue” this point with a semblance of logic or class.

“also you dont always get 5 days in port, its usually 4” - Really? Does that refute the idea that you guys get too much time in port to be realistic?

“and you have watch and work sections so at MOST you had 3 days” -Still more than any container/RoRo/tanker that I have heard of, and who is to say that we dont work in port as well? What kind of work could it be? Cargo ops? Oh no - wait! All of the “cargo” is charging ashore and getting drunk…not that there is anything wrong with that…seriously.

“Also pray you didn’t get ED for some mundane slip that you made and have to work extra in port.” -Probably not half as bad as having a C/M who likes to have you working all of your time in port, and can easily restrict you to the ship. Let’s also not talk about bullshit regulations, as we get quite a dose of mundane slips and ED at our lovely academy.

“why don’t you acknowledge that you really know nothing of other schools’ cadet experience?” and "<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’]Almost all the </span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’]Maritime</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’] </span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’]Academy</span><span style=“font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’]’s do have a commercial shipping program that requires at least 60 days on a commercial ship. Get the facts straight.” -By “almost”, you mean 2 out of 5? Mass and Maine are the only ones, and the sole reason being that they dont have enough room on the training ship. I just had a detailed discussion with the 3/M (A&M grad) and 2/M (SUNY grad), and C/E (Maine grad) about their college sailing experiences, so Id already say that I am better versed in their experiences than you. Math was never my thing (and thus engineering wasnt either), but that seems like a measly 40% to me…sorry, I just dont know anything.</span>

CMA_Decky · February 11, 2008, 5:46am

coDOUCHEBAGugh

Why does this KP cadet seem to take such pleasure in stroking his ego. We may be making ourselves sound dumber but I’d rather sound dumb than make my school look like it’s full of a bunch of arrogant pricks (but man he sure can use big fancy words…). Oh and sorry buddy but you’re wrong again, CMA Sophomores go on commercial cruise also.

Anyways enough with that. So I believe it’s been established that ALL of the academies don’t prepare their cadets for the real word. What can be done to counteract that? Or is there even anything that can be changed? Seems to me that if everyone agrees on this maybe the new mate or a/e should be supervised a little bit more closely until he gains some expierience.

T.L_Prather · March 10, 2008, 1:03pm

john · March 10, 2008, 3:33pm

T.L. I think our state’s budget is F$#@'d. I’m not sure I’d read into it more than that but it is unfortunate. Hopefully Ken Lay and the rest of the Enron crowd is feeling the heat right about now.

SleazyCadet · March 12, 2008, 4:42am

At my school, you get out what you put in. It is possible to pass all the tests in class, slide by with C’s and B’s and graduate in 4 years completely incompetent and without a clue on your first watch. However, with a large staff of experienced seamen to learn from, it is also possible to put extra time in, and really know your stuff. Nothing is a better teacher than experience, however, and i agree with those who have said that the third mates should be accompanied by another mate or someone who has some experience on there first few watches.

Neptune_s_Car · July 21, 2008, 11:53am

John, <div>To answer the question you posed, and which started this discussion: Yes, the academies prepare a relatively small number of individuals capable of standing their own watch. And No, the vast majority of graduates need additional supervised watch time before they have the self-confidence to make rational decisions while being the sole watch stander. Sorry for the ambiguity, but that’s calling a spade a spade.</div><br><div>The four year cadet program at the various institutions is a great start for the basis of knowledge needed by a new watch officer, but that said, very few graduates have what it takes to jump behind the wheel and be expected to perform safely in whatever situations may present themselves to this new officer. This is due to the sheer lack of appropriate time spent in an actual decision-making watch scenario that can only come with time, lots of time. <br></div><br><div>Captains and/or senior mates who have plugged these young, ambitious people into the watch bill without any type of orientation or oversight are doing a disservice to the entire crew of the vessel but especially to the new mate. The recent ‘Empress of the North’ incident is only one of hundreds of serious accidents whose cause was attributed to lack of experience by a new, junior officer…an officer that should have been under direct supervision.</div><br><div>With all due respect to many of the participants in this discussion, none of the academies are any better than the men and women who graduate from these institutions and then go on to become dedicated professionals. It’s easy to get caught up in the ancient dispute about which school is better than the others. Try to put this tiring, much to do about nothing subject behind you before you get to your first ship, as it is counter-productive to everything that really matters in the real world. It makes no difference where you went to school, period. What means something in real life is what makes <span style="text-decoration: underline;]<span style="font-weight: bold;]you</span></span> different from all of the other recent graduates. </div><br><div>Being different means being responsible, reliable, able to unquestionably follow orders, and not forgetting that you have to demonstrate your abilities to your fellow officers, so as to garner their trust in you. With that trust, will come their respect for you as well. </div><br><div>To answer fantailfreddy’s question about where new mates can be better versed: number one in my opinion would be ‘situational awareness’. Safety is always going to start with the new watch stander having a true understanding of what the big picture is, and developing this sense by utilizing all available resources. Never, ever be hesitant to ask the helmsman and/or lookout or others what they see out the windows. Use your electronics, chart, radio, and use your good judgement. The only thing you can’t afford to do is wait too long to determine that things you thought you understood are things that in fact you don’t understand. <span style="font-weight: bold;]<span style="text-decoration: underline;]Don’t</span></span> put yourself in this situation. Call the Captain as soon as you get befuddled. Better to go this route than to perhaps make the most serious error of your life. </div><br><div>Number two on my short list would be for new mates to spend more time on the bridge, while not on watch, observing the other watch standers and how various situations are handled by others. Ask questions of the other mates and the captain. You’ll be surprised how forthcoming most people are with factual information and instruction, when they realize that someone is motivated enough to learn. If you never ask, you’ll never know, will you? </div><br><div>Good luck to all the future officers, from wherever you may hail. </div>

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Do our Academys prepare 3rd Mates for thier first bridge watch?

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