[QUOTE=87cr250r;100314]I knew the mate from CMA… I would describe him as “ghetto”. One of the funniest moments of my life was riding jet skis in the delta in CA on the fourth of July and picking up some random drunk girls and having them ask me did you know that guy that hit the iceberg in Alaska. Nobody has hit an iceberg in Alaska so I said no but I asked what year and she spit it out so I mentioned the mates name and she was like YEAH that was my neighbor. She proceeded to tell me how ghetto he was and that he was an ass hole.[/QUOTE]
Some people would consider that a silly story but even not knowing this guy I really feel like I know what you’re talking about through my own experiences with some special individuals. Douchebaggery knows NO bounds.
Don’t get your hopes up, Schuyler does the same thing now, but they are split cruises for lack of accommodations onboard - mugs and 2/c do 45 day cruises (they split the classes in half and switch them out halfway through), 1/c do a full 90… still the same sea time as before. I personally managed two open-ocean “Cadet Watch Officer” watches in 60 days on my 1/c cruise; that was my training ship bridge watchstanding experience. My only meager saving grace was cadet shipping with some good captains and mates that actually allowed me to do stuff. I was fortunate not to have any serious “oh shit” moments on my first tour as a mate, but looking back on it, it probably had a lot to do with the captain I had in the first place.
Understanding your limitations is the most important piece of knowledge you can possess. Something I learned in my cadet shipping early on that has stuck with me years later is that your superiors want to know when you don’t know something. It seems blatantly simple and obvious now, but it wasn’t something that was ever really addressed at school; there really wasn’t any kind of guidance about conducting yourself as a new mate, just the same ‘ole ad hoc anecdotes and sea stories. If anything, there was a focus on carrying on despite problems that are way over your head. The only required simulator course (which during my time you were supposed to take after your 1/c cruise?) was this in a nutshell. In some cases this kind of training is necessary to force cadets to think and learn outside their comfort zone. On the other hand, cadets also need to be taught to recognize that no amount of training will ever make up for experience, and that is something that they seriously lack out of the gate. I strongly agree with TraitorYankee as well, an individual’s upbringing probably has more bearing on this than any amount of academy education, but it’s the academy’s’ job to weed the others out. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen.
It all boils down to trust; your superiors need to trust that you’ll ask for help when in doubt, the worse thing you can do is screw up because you were too scared/nervous/stupid/etc to ask a simple question or raise your hand. I never understood this dilemma about choosing to operate outside of your known abilities to try and impress the boss. For what? Why risk it? There is no excuse for an accident, especially in a courtroom. Just pick up the damn phone. I can deal with getting yelled at if I was wrong (if there’s one thing the academy prepared me for…) but at least I’ll still have my license. I’ve found that there was no shortage of dumb new mates that came before me and the expectations really were pretty low; doing your job well with a good work ethic, conducting yourself professionally, and asking the appropriate questions will impress people much more than any single hail-mary act of stupidity.
“There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.”
Good post Wafi. As we say - you don’t know what you don’t know.
And that’s the problem us newbies are going to have. We want to do a good job, but we don’t want to be percieved as an educatied dumb ass either. Yes, we’re going to have a boat load of questions on our first watch, but human nature will cause some to hestitate out of fear of that dreaded line - ‘didn’t they teach you ANYTHING at that effin academy?’
Granted, its better to be percieved as a dumbass than run the boat up on the rocks but you get the drift.
It might be easier said than done, but don’t worry about any of that. Haters gonna hate. You only change perceptions created by actual dumdasses before you by being a good mate. Like I mentioned, the bar is pretty low, so any decent person will do well. Learn as much as you can as soon as you can, ask questions, write down everything (especially the answers), and ask for and accept feedback from superiors and subordinates.
Never lose focus of your number one priority: safety (people, environment, property). You achieve a safe watch by clearly understanding your responsibilities, being able to carry them out, and constantly educating yourself (warning: it never ends).
And sometimes there’s no winning. I told the captain of my first vessel that this was my first vessel. I was on 12-4 and told him to expect phone calls. At first I asked a bunch of questions (during the day) and called him whenever I was in doubt (with time for him to come up and see what was going on.) After 3 trips with him and 2 with the other captain, I found out pretty much no matter what I did, he would hate my guts. The other captain had no problem with the way the watch was ran after I got a couple of trips under my belt. Win some and lose some…
[QUOTE=rshrew;100205]On another note I just got some info from CMA that summer commercial cruises are now 90 days for cadets instead of 60, so that is one step in the right direction.[/QUOTE]
STCW 2010 made the service requirements in an approved program for OICEW the same as what has been required for OICNW.
[QUOTE=ryanwood86;100916]And sometimes there’s no winning. I told the captain of my first vessel that this was my first vessel. I was on 12-4 and told him to expect phone calls. At first I asked a bunch of questions (during the day) and called him whenever I was in doubt (with time for him to come up and see what was going on.) After 3 trips with him and 2 with the other captain, I found out pretty much no matter what I did, he would hate my guts. The other captain had no problem with the way the watch was ran after I got a couple of trips under my belt. Win some and lose some…[/QUOTE]
That’s right. I think this advice that, don’ t worry the captain wants a safe voyage and will be happy to help you is not always correct. There are all kinds out there and some captains have fairly severe personality issues and poor leadership and management skills. Sometimes the captain just wants serve up a big pile of steaming shit just to watch you eat it.
However the captain is not the only person aboard. My first ABs were looking out for me and would remind me if I had overlooked something. Also the other mates can be a big help, if not the chief mate then the second mate.
I’m no saint but I learned on the job and I do at least try (some of the time anyway) to treat other as I would have wanted to treated but there are a lot of flaming assholes out there and some are sailing captain.
After more than 33 years on the water and 31 of that mostly on the bridge in one capacity or another, I rate new mates like this:
Hawsepipers: In most cases they have experience but their leadership and book skills are marginal unless they have some sort of military training. I can usually trust them to not hit anything but have to reinforce calling me when in doubt because they are under the mistaken impression (at least in the oilfield) that what happens on their watch is their ultimate responsibility. I remind them that like myself, they do not know everything and should always be looking to learn whether it is from myself, an academy grad or the cook. I try and learn something new everyday. The only things that are a challenge is teaching them leadership if they have worked for a screamer and breaking any bad habits. And I WILL break them.
Academy Graduates: I liken them to GI Joe out of the box. They come with all the cool uniforms and parts but you don’t know what is going on up in that skull. They are normally fountains of book knowledge and have rudimentary leadership skills. I remind them they need to learn whatever they can from the people they interact with daily whether it is a new OS, a hawsepiper, or the cook. They learn quickly to call me when in doubt because it is my ass not their’s if the s*** hits the fan. Most are very eager to get started and the toughest part is throttling them back a little especially if they graduated high in their class. I enjoy having them aboard and try to inculcate all the practical things I have learned during my time afloat so they do not make the same mistakes, reminding them they will learn more form their mistakes than their successes.
I welcome either aboard because, as I have stated before, I really miss the teaching and training of outstanding and motivated young men and women I was honored to serve with while in the military.
I would further break down the hawsepipe category in two. The guys that got their time ASAP and took the test at the first opportunity. These guys are ambitious and learn fast.
Secondly the guys that sailed for 20 years, retired and then got their license. Or got their thirds license during their career but continued to sail AB. This group combine the worse of both worlds, they are in the habit of being told what to do but as long as they can accomplish each task required the believe they are doing a good job in spite of missing the big picture.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;100954]That’s right. I think this advice that, don’ t worry the captain wants a safe voyage and will be happy to help you is not always correct. There are all kinds out there and some captains have fairly severe personality issues and poor leadership and management skills. Sometimes the captain just wants serve up a big pile of steaming shit just to watch you eat it.[/QUOTE]
Good point, as it’s not always correct… to the captain. But in any case, regardless of what my first captain (a major dick) thought about being called or asked questions, I called anyway. If they get mad you’re calling them, they have absolutely no business being the master of that vessel in the first place. I called without shame, and still do.
We had an old timer onboard sailing 2nd Mate who called with a question about the wording of night orders and got bitched at about it, and he told the master up front “if you don’t like it, you can find someone else to do the job, or sail as a lower rating…” not exactly the smartest thing for the cranky old man to say, but after 46 years at sea I doubt he was concerned with the consequences. He simply made it known that he was doing what was expected of him, and did not appreciate that the captain was giving him grief about following the standing orders.
[QUOTE=“BMCSRetired;101152”]After more than 33 years on the water and 31 of that mostly on the bridge in one capacity or another, I rate new mates like this:
Hawsepipers: In most cases they have experience but their leadership and book skills are marginal unless they have some sort of military training. I can usually trust them to not hit anything but have to reinforce calling me when in doubt because they are under the mistaken impression (at least in the oilfield) that what happens on their watch is their ultimate responsibility. I remind them that like myself, they do not know everything and should always be looking to learn whether it is from myself, an academy grad or the cook. I try and learn something new everyday. The only things that are a challenge is teaching them leadership if they have worked for a screamer and breaking any bad habits. And I WILL break them.
Academy Graduates: I liken them to GI Joe out of the box. They come with all the cool uniforms and parts but you don’t know what is going on up in that skull. They are normally fountains of book knowledge and have rudimentary leadership skills. I remind them they need to learn whatever they can from the people they interact with daily whether it is a new OS, a hawsepiper, or the cook. They learn quickly to call me when in doubt because it is my ass not their’s if the s*** hits the fan. Most are very eager to get started and the toughest part is throttling them back a little especially if they graduated high in their class. I enjoy having them aboard and try to inculcate all the practical things I have learned during my time afloat so they do not make the same mistakes, reminding them they will learn more form their mistakes than their successes.
I welcome either aboard because, as I have stated before, I really miss the teaching and training of outstanding and motivated young men and women I was honored to serve with while in the military.[/QUOTE]
You are a rare breed Senior. In my experience, there are VERY few captains and seasoned mates that are willing to train…let alone like or enjoy training new mates. IMO, this lack of motivation on senior deck officers somewhat inhibits and holds back the development of new mates. Obviously it’s not the sole job of the captain to “train the new mate” , however, it is nice to be in an environment where you CAN ask questions and feel comfortable enough to make a phone call when needed and not have the fear of pissing off the Old Man. Just because someone is in charge doesn’t make them a leader or a good leader for that matter. I have worked for plenty of tug captains and mates who were fantastic boat handlers and shit ass leaders and trainers.
[QUOTE=ShooterMcGavin;101446]Good point, as it’s not always correct… to the captain. But in any case, regardless of what my first captain (a major dick) thought about being called or asked questions, I called anyway. If they get mad you’re calling them, they have absolutely no business being the master of that vessel in the first place. I called without shame, and still do.
We had an old timer onboard sailing 2nd Mate who called with a question about the wording of night orders and got bitched at about it, and he told the master up front “if you don’t like it, you can find someone else to do the job, or sail as a lower rating…” not exactly the smartest thing for the cranky old man to say, but after 46 years at sea I doubt he was concerned with the consequences. He simply made it known that he was doing what was expected of him, and did not appreciate that the captain was giving him grief about following the standing orders.[/QUOTE]
I agree. The the key thing for a new third mate to do is to learn to listen. A significant percentage of 3rd mates have never learned that skill.
Secondly you do need to read the various instructions such as standing orders, night orders and the like very carefully.
Another point, don’t just focus on the captain, there are others on the crew who can help you as well. I learned far more from the C/M then the captains over the years.
Try to learn stuff on your own. You don’t necessarily have to ask someone every question that pops into your head. Dig into the manuals a bit before you bother someone that is busy.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;101473]I agree. The the key thing for a new third mate to do is to learn to listen. A significant percentage of 3rd mates have never learned that skill.
Secondly you do need to read the various instructions such as standing orders, night orders and the like very carefully.
Another point, don’t just focus on the captain, there are others on the crew who can help you as well. I learned far more from the C/M then the captains over the years.
Try to learn stuff on your own. You don’t necessarily have to ask someone every question that pops into your head. Dig into the manuals a bit before you bother someone that is busy.[/QUOTE]
Your response reminded me to elaborate slightly on my own posts. The past few responses, yours especially, make a point of suggesting that calling/seeking someone OTHER than the master with questions is a wise idea, and I couldn’t agree more. When it came to the operations and maintenance end of things, the C/M would and should be the first person one contacts for assistance. When I got on my first ship I was in the unique position of taking a third mate’s job which bumped the previous third mate up to second mate. His experience and knowledge, having sailed as third aboard that vessel for years was a valuable asset which I utilized as often as I could.
The master is the sole writer and signer of the standing/night orders. To call anyone else when in doubt other than the captain while on the bridge would almost certainly make you worse off than if you simply roused the old man, regardless of his feelings in the matter. Are there dicks out there? Of course… but I never let it stop me from doing what is expected of me.
[QUOTE=ShooterMcGavin;101523]Your response reminded me to elaborate slightly on my own posts. The past few responses, yours especially, make a point of suggesting that calling/seeking someone OTHER than the master with questions is a wise idea, and I couldn’t agree more. When it came to the operations and maintenance end of things, the C/M would and should be the first person one contacts for assistance. When I got on my first ship I was in the unique position of taking a third mate’s job which bumped the previous third mate up to second mate. His experience and knowledge, having sailed as third aboard that vessel for years was a valuable asset which I utilized as often as I could.
The master is the sole writer and signer of the standing/night orders. To call anyone else when in doubt other than the captain while on the bridge would almost certainly make you worse off than if you simply roused the old man, regardless of his feelings in the matter. Are there dicks out there? Of course… but I never let it stop me from doing what is expected of me.[/QUOTE]
That’s right, the mate on watch is free to call the captain at any time for assistance or if in doubt. If that captain doesn’t like getting called that’s the captain’s problem not the mates.
Like you said however you can get a sense of which way the wind is blowing from the other mates but it’s best to check with the captain for matters concerning the watch at sea.
