Actually Lee and Steamer are both right. At present mates working as DP operators make more than engineers at the same level. This will change as soon as the number of DP operators catches up with the demand. There are companies training foreign licensed mates to work as DP operators now. These guys can and will work as DP operators at pure mate pay. The DP guys need to get the money while they can because the supply WILL catch up with the demand. Once you take the DP issue out of the mix the pay is the same normally between engineers and mates but it is true the engineers can nearly always find a job at sea or on land.
[QUOTE=50thState;47035]Heard of lots of ships with unmanned engine rooms. Never heard of one with an unmanned bridge. Tell me again how important those guys areā¦[/QUOTE]
Well now you are bringing something into the discussion that indicates what you heard and what you know are a world apart. I donāt care what department you go into but if you walk up the gangway with the idea any one person or department on that ship is more āimportantā than the other you probably wonāt last very long or have a very pleasant trip. If you honestly think your role is more or less important than anyone elseās, I hope you reconsider your career choice.
An unmanned machinery space doesnāt mean there are no engineers on the ship, it just means the controls are much more complex and the engineers have a greater degree of responsibility and need more training.
I donāt think anyone is more or less important than the other. That goes from the OIM to the dishwasher. We all have a job to do and we could not do it all without the other. We all count on each other.
Where I work we do operate an unmanned engine control room. The idea is it takes some of the responsibilities of system monitoring away from the engineers and gets them out turning more wrenches. I know a lot of guys like the ass time. I personally do not like the idea having all the responsibility of the plant at my finger tips. To make it work you have to work closely with your engineers to feed off their knowledge base, because letās face it. I do not have any interest what so ever in engines, how they work, etc, but more and more companies are running power management from the bridge. All I know is when I put the throttle on the dash I want it to go. It does work, but it takes a lot of training for DPOās to make good decisions concerning power management. The thing is the systems are so sophisticated now that most times the plant brings itself back online all by itself without anyone touching anything. What man could take a ship from black out to starting all eight engines, all eight thrusters and restoring power to all systems in less than two minutes. One time we only lost position by 12 meters. All the dpoās really have to do is once the plant is back online to make sure that cooling water is lined up correctly and get the airhandlers back on. The tough part is what to do when the logic does not do what it is supposed to do. Training and exercises for these situations and sometimes trial by fire.
I disagree with the DPO wages stabilizing. These systems are getting more and more advanced and there is a big difference between a DPO and an experienced DPO. Not only do you have to know the DP system, but also the power systems, drilling systems, mud systems, bulk systems, fuel system, rig air, bulk air, drains, K-chief, OICNW, and Managment level courses, life saving equipment, policies, procedures, permit to work coordinator, counselor, financial advisor, show engineers how to use a copier scanner and write their sea time for them, the list goes on and on. And they say DPOās donāt do anything. It is an illusion people get when they walk in and the dpoās are on amazon purchasing the http://www.liberator.com/eng/product/tenga-egg-6-pack/11500 I think the DPO wage will increase. It is a world wide shortage and just because you are foreign does not mean you work for less. A lot of the foreigners actually make more than the Expats.
Lee accurately stated the drilling companies ideas about unmanned engine rooms. Donāt need engineers down there when a DP guy can push a button is the thinking there. āFree upā the engineers to do oiler work so you donāt have to hire an oiler/motorman. But what if the button doesnāt work? I audit these rigs and I can tell you why it happens.
As far as the administrative tasks the DP guys whine about; the companies have already been thinking about that. A yeoman can do most of them and a yeoman is just a glorified secretary who checks the paper work and takes it to a mate or the OIM for a sign off. A Croatian, Indian or other DP fellow will work for less than a US DP guy if the burden gets to be too much. You donāt even need a mateās license to be a DP guy for goodness sakes. If you think these companies wouldnāt do to DP operators what theyāve done to engineers you are delusional, living in fantasy land.
The DWH disaster will eventually bring some changes to the industryās hiring practices and priorities I hope but wouldnāt count on it. Hopefully theyāll keep the licensed DP mates and insist on more technically qualified troubleshooters to back up the button pushers but technically trained people cost a lot of money to train and keep, the industry wonāt spend the money unless forced too and right now nobody has the balls to force them.
Call whatever you wantā¦iām on the phone everyday and the net looking sending out resumeās and all i get is tomorrow;as well i also follow all leads. Just got off the phone with Ameriforce and was told that the
AB jobs are full for the moment.
[QUOTE=highseasmechanic;46955] In the long run I think it is a more diverse path and offers many more opportunities. This is especially true if you ever intend on going ashore. Your skills can be transferred to building and power plant maintenance and eventually management positions.[/QUOTE]
You almost always see this argument made, that if you go engine you have more opportunities ashore. This is true but it is also it can be a bit of a trap for many because going ashore often entails a pay cut which is hard to swallow once you have a mortgage. car payments and kids in school etc.
The flip side of this is that going deck requires more of a commitment to a career at sea.
Such a stupid argument. You can have two people on the deck side,have varying success - the same as two guys in the engine room side, having varying success with their careers. Comparison between deck and engine room doesnāt guarantee anything. Youāre not even guaranteed anything for having ANY license, only that you are out the money that it took to get it. Comparing deck to engine room is no different than comparing a river pilot to a ship captain where one makes double the other, if youāre only concerned with money that is. The most important thing is to be good at what you do, work by principals, upgrade as far as the ladder goes, and hope that is enough to catch a brake and a tit job. And, part of those principals is the fact that the most important person to you and your family on any given night could be the green OS that pulled the fire alarm and got your ass out the bunk and in the lifeboatā¦
anchorman,how come you always have to put good common sense into a posting???
[QUOTE=anchorman;47055]Such a stupid argument. You can have two people on the deck side,have varying success - the same as two guys in the engine room side, having varying success with their careers. Comparison between deck and engine room doesnāt guarantee anything. Youāre not even guaranteed anything for having ANY license, only that you are out the money that it took to get it. Comparing deck to engine room is no different than comparing a river pilot to a ship captain where one makes double the other, if youāre only concerned with money that is. The most important thing is to be good at what you do, work by principals, upgrade as far as the ladder goes, and hope that is enough to catch [B][U]a brake and a tit job[/U][/B]. And, part of those principals is the fact that the most important person to you and your family on any given night could be the green OS that pulled the fire alarm and got your ass out the bunk and in the lifeboatā¦[/QUOTE]
Please explain āa brake and a tit jobāā¦
I once tried to take my wife in for a brake jobā¦she was less than amused.
As I work on tugs and not deep sea I didnāt vote in the poll. With manning being slashed to the bone, engine was not really an option for me, extremely difficult to get the appropriate sea time. I advised my son, who went through the SIU apprenticeship program, to go engine. He decided on deck.
As such all I would offer are some observations, which are much safer to offer than advice. While I agree with K. C.'s sentiment about going ashore usually entailing a pay cut, a pay cut is better than no pay. Throughout this economic downturn the company I work for has still had a shortage of engineers. The number of job postings for engineers vs deck on the job boards is heavily weighted as well. Itās not difficult to find a job posting for an engineer, deck positions on the other hand have been few and far between (specific requirements of either notwithstanding). I donāt know of any engineers looking for work. Captains, Mates, and deckhands are another story. Iām working as a Mate right now, but Iām waiting for the day I return to work and am told I have to go back to deckhand because they donāt have the work (which has already happened to some of my counterparts).
No stewards department on tugs. However, there is a shore side counterpart to stewards as well. Wonāt pay as much, but it will pay.
My job has no translation to shore that Iāve found. In all fairness, I havenāt looked that hard.
I have all of my eggs in one basket and not much of a choice. Other departments may offer choice, even if those choices arenāt very attractive.
[QUOTE=Cal;47264]As I work on tugs and not deep sea I didnāt vote in the poll. With manning being slashed to the bone, engine was not really an option for me, extremely difficult to get the appropriate sea time. I advised my son, who went through the SIU apprenticeship program, to go engine. He decided on deck.
As such all I would offer are some observations, which are much safer to offer than advice. While I agree with K. C.'s sentiment about going ashore usually entailing a pay cut, a pay cut is better than no pay. Throughout this economic downturn the company I work for has still had a shortage of engineers. The number of job postings for engineers vs deck on the job boards is heavily weighted as well. Itās not difficult to find a job posting for an engineer, deck positions on the other hand have been few and far between (specific requirements of either notwithstanding). I donāt know of any engineers looking for work. Captains, Mates, and deckhands are another story. Iām working as a Mate right now, but Iām waiting for the day I return to work and am told I have to go back to deckhand because they donāt have the work (which has already happened to some of my counterparts).
No stewards department on tugs. However, there is a shore side counterpart to stewards as well. Wonāt pay as much, but it will pay.
My job has no translation to shore that Iāve found. In all fairness, I havenāt looked that hard.
I have all of my eggs in one basket and not much of a choice. Other departments may offer choice, even if those choices arenāt very attractive.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for a well balanced and thought out post Cal.
I agree with your observations.
In my exp. working in maritime, the two jobs that are always in demand are cook and oiler/engineer.
Even on many smaller vessels where a deckhand must do many duties, a real cook is worth his weight in gold. The same for an oiler/unlic.engineer, for example on 100 ton vessels, fishing vessels etc.
I heard a capt on a crewboat say once: āIf you can cook, I can teach you the rest, anybody can throw ropes and tie knots, but few can really cookā.
A QMED or an engineer always has the option to work ashore, might not have the same pay and rotation, but itās pay.
A good cook can always find a job anywhere and I think that a smart Steward from a ship would easily use the training and exp. to go into restaraunt management which pays pretty decent.
But what does deck translate into on land? Not much Iāve ever found either.
And to those just starting out, it might not seem a big deal, but what happens if ten years down the line youāve got a wife and three kids? What if you finally get sick of going to sea? Or like right now, thereās a major downturn, esp. in the GoM, whatcha going do?
Thanks for all the responses and votes!
[QUOTE=tengineer;47041]Lee accurately stated the drilling companies ideas about unmanned engine rooms. Donāt need engineers down there when a DP guy can push a button is the thinking there. āFree upā the engineers to do oiler work so you donāt have to hire an oiler/motorman. But what if the button doesnāt work? I audit these rigs and I can tell you why it happens.
As far as the administrative tasks the DP guys whine about; the companies have already been thinking about that. A yeoman can do most of them and a yeoman is just a glorified secretary who checks the paper work and takes it to a mate or the OIM for a sign off. A Croatian, Indian or other DP fellow will work for less than a US DP guy if the burden gets to be too much. You donāt even need a mateās license to be a DP guy for goodness sakes. If you think these companies wouldnāt do to DP operators what theyāve done to engineers you are delusional, living in fantasy land.
.[/QUOTE]
Good news !! The Nautical Institute saw the move afoot by some of the drilling companies to have unlicensed non marine types certified as DP operators and decided that as of Jan 12 youāll have to have at least some kind of license. The ruling didnāt go as far as I would have wished but it did stop a further lowering of the bar that was getting ready to happen. Bravo to them for standing up to those who would lower standards to save a dollar.
[QUOTE=tengineer;47388]Good news !! The Nautical Institute saw the move afoot by some of the drilling companies to have unlicensed non marine types certified as DP operators and decided that as of Jan 12 youāll have to have at least some kind of license. The ruling didnāt go as far as I would have wished but it did stop a further lowering of the bar that was getting ready to happen. Bravo to them for standing up to those who would lower standards to save a dollar.[/QUOTE]
I wonder if that will displace the many RFPNW guys that serve as DPOās on many SSCV vessels in the North Sea, which is common place in that sector, but not for reasons to save money. Those guys are generally extra men not on the Safe Manning Certificate, but help all the same.
I donāt think that on the rigs it saves any money. Most guys that are unlicensed DPOās are going to school to get their mateās license. The company has to pay for these guys to go to these schools. They do not get paid any less that a licensed DPO. So no money saved there. I actually think it cost more to have a non-licensed DPO. A mate that comes out of school or hawespipe has already dropped the dough to get the license. All they need are the operator and simulator training. Two weeks of training and they are ready. An unlicensed guy is in for a long, arduous road of classes and testing most times at the companyās expense. Having qualified DPOās in most cases is not a mininum manning requirement, but more of a demand by the oil companies to have qualified personnel operating these systems. If you look at the Safe Manning for Panama flagged Semi. You might be shocked. Basically all you need is an OIM, Barge Supervisor and Ballast Control Operator and Chief MODU while on location. When underway you have to have 3 mates and a fw AB lifeboatmen. You can get around that if you have a tug come move you. I hear Marshall Islands just took some steps to improve these requirements. Letās see if the rest follow suit.
Engine department. That way they will have skills useful in a shoreside capacity should they decide to get out of the industry.
Hey guys! I would have to say that it is whatever you want. I have worked deck, steward, and a very little bit of deck/engineer. If you enjoy what you do and are good at it you can be as successful as people in any other dept. Engineers certainly get paid well and can find work ashore in many industries. Deck guys have limitless opportunities ashore. The world needs ditch diggers, too. Seriously though, if one retires from a licensed position there is plenty of opportunity for one who can sell themselves. My experience from jobs ahshore is that management requires people skills not actual industry knowledge. And the Stewards Dept. can end with a career in hospitality management. One thing Iāve learned is that in this modern day of secure ports and corporate policy preventing sailors from going into town, the steward can usually go ashore for provisions and take in some sights. I personally enjoy both deck and stewards deptās. And as far as Iāve seen no one thinks they get paid enough or are appreciated enough for what they do. (Especially our wives)
[QUOTE=Steamer;47008]Yeah, heās right. All you will ever get is money and job security plus job prospects when you want to swallow the anchor, none of the good stuff like fancy hats and being called captain.[/QUOTE]
That has to be one of the truest posts iāve EVER heard about marine engineersā¦ Personally, I donāt ENJOY doing engineering work (it is a job after all)ā¦ But I love being IN engineeringā¦ You never have to worry about when or where you will get your next jobā¦ They are always thereā¦
Yes, there is a truth to it. The longest I have been out of work was about 5 or 6 weeks in 1984. I was let go by one company, but had plenty of money in the bank. I purposely didnāt look for work for 5 weeks, just did what I wanted to. I picked up a paper on Thursday, made a call on Friday and on Saturday I was on a plane to Norfolk to sign on to my new job.
I went to Piney Point and it was a great experience minus some BS but youāll get that any where. I went deck got my ABs and later a degree and a license. I have 4 classmates that worked their way up to being licensed officers, 2 engineers and 2 mates. You will get out of it what you put into it! Work hard and move up OR be a slapdick and life long AB/QMED