I am running into some confusion on DDE’s I was hoping someone at the board could answer a couple of questions.
Can a third engineer’s unlimited horsepower license be used to take a DDE job? (Note, not a chief job just on a DDE boat) Does there need to be another endorsement on the third’s license? How about limited DDE?
I am asking specifically about academy graduates. The CFR’s don’t seem to be very clear. I found one thing online stating Cal maritime grads get DDE. What about other Academies? Is there any policy from the Coast Guard? Other sources to check other than the CFR’s.
Wow I know that’s a lot. Any and all help would be great. It boils down to is a third AE unlimited equivalent to or greater than a DDE. Keep up the great job on the board here.
Thanks
http://www.access.gpo.gov/ecfr/graphics/pdfs/er16mr09.003.pdf
The 3RD does trump the DDE.
[I][quote=injunear;18486]… [/I][I]The 3RD does trump the DDE.[/I][/quote]
That diagram only notes the sea time needed for specific licenses and whether one can go from to another. It does not address what capacities you can serve in.
A 3rd Assistant Engineer can NOT serve as DDE. When a mariner can serve in one capacity while holding another is an “equivalent” and is covered in 46 CFR Part 15. Engineering equivalents are at 46 CFR 15.915, there is no equivalent to let a 3rd AE serve as DDE. Compare thgis with 46 CFR 15.901 which allows someone licensed as mate for over 200 GRT to serve as master on vessels less than 100 GRT.
[I][quote=injunear;18486]… The 3RD does trump the DDE.[/quote][/I]
That diagram only notes the sea time needed for specific licenses and whether one can go from to another. It does not address what capacities you can serve in.
A 3rd Assistant Engineer can NOT serve as DDE. When a mariner can serve in one capacity while holding another is an “equivalent” and is covered in 46 CFR Part 15. Engineering equivalents are at 46 CFR 15.915, there is no equivalent to let a 3rd AE serve as DDE. Compare thgis with 46 CFR 15.901 which allows someone licensed as mate for over 200 GRT to serve as master on vessels less than 100 GRT.
Back in the 70’s and early 80’s, 3rd assts were regulary sailing as engineers on supply boats over 200GT. I just assumed that was still the norm as requirements for the 3rd are more stringent.
In some areas, the knowledge (exam) requirements are greater, but the 3rd serves as the most junior of 4 enfgineers, the DDE is the only engineer on board. That is the basis of the differences.
Did the 3rds you sail with also have DDE? In the Marine Safety Manual there is a provision for academy 3rd AEs to get DDE if they have “industry specific training” (I’d quote the exact cite if I had time to hunt it down). If they were already qualified to serve DDE that provision wouldn’t be needed.
A limited chief or a DDE trumps even a 1st in the case of little boats.
It seems bizarre but 3rd through 1st are still “assistants” and can’t sail as chief on anything requiring a chief except a foreign flag yacht, and even then it requires a flag state endorsement.
In the early to mid-70’s, most of the guys I worked with had M&O or uninspected licenses. There was no DDE at the time. Some of the guys out of various maritime schools came to work as trainee engineers for a few hitches and were turned loose as the only engineer on board. The late 70’s was the consoladation time for the lower level engineers licenses.
After jumping through the hoops of regs at that time, I had to set for M&O, Uninspected Vessels and Inspected Motor Towing Chief’s exams. A year or so later anyone with any of those licenses were given a LTD license. With another years time as electrician and pumpman, I was allowed to set for an original Second Motor.
If a 3rd can’t cover the DDE’s slot up front, there needs to be published any extra and “standardized” requirements.
It does seem bizarre but I guess they look at it as though you can make a baby 3rd with more or less a stroke of the pen but even a limited chief takes a little bit of sea time and experience.
My limited chief (any horsepower steam or motor) ticket paid for itself regularly all the way through to my unlimited chief (steam/motor/GT) since the CG way of reading the word “assistant” means just that.
My advice to new 3rd is to grab every ticket they can since it’s a long trip up to chief and that assistant label really restricts their options. It is amazing how many guys don’t want a lower level endorsement on their licenses though. Maybe with the new MMC that will be less a factor.
The attrition of 3rds in the 70’s was pretty high in the oilfield. This was mainly from the lack of motor training in all of the schools. The 80’s was a little better. The last batch of 3rds I worked with were very impressive. Highly motivated and were just a couple of months from their upgrade to Second and LTD Chief.
One spent some time on a Crowley Invader class tug as engineer so I assumed his 3rd covered as DDE. But after I thought about it, the Invaders are 10K hp but under 200GT. No license required.
As the [I]Mel Oliver[/I] evidences, how a vessel is manned is not necessarily the same as how it should be manned.
If the 3rds you sailed with were only a few months from 2nd, they had to have had other experience after graduating.
Although DDE is not considered an “STCW license”, a DDE would be equivalent to the STCW management level, and 3rd AE is the operational level (OICEW).
[quote=jdcavo;18775]As the [I]Mel Oliver[/I] evidences, how a vessel is manned is not necessarily the same as how it should be manned.
If the 3rds you sailed with were only a few months from 2nd, they had to have had other experience after graduating.
Although DDE is not considered an “STCW license”, a DDE would be equivalent to the STCW management level, and 3rd AE is the operational level (OICEW).[/quote]
I should have been more precise. By the time I retired, they were ready to upgrade.
So the DDE is good for vessels up to 500GT and “NOTconsidered STCW”. A 3rd can cover an Asst LTD’s job for vessels up to 1600T and a DDE unlimited can qualify for an Asst LTD…There needs to be language that shows a path for 3rd to DDE including the 1000hp and 4000hp rates.
I always warned the guys coming up that the same committes that screwed up the deck license requirements were looking to do the same for engineers.
Chapter 12 of Vol III of the MSM lays it out pretty clear (as clear as the government can be).
To summarize, a 3A/E will also get you a DDE limited which you may be able to upgrade to DDE unlimited with 6 months sea time. When you upgrade to 2A/E unlimited, you can also get a Chief(limited) Oceans, Chief UFIV and DDE unlimited.
Interestingly, it says that as a 3A/E you cannot serve as a DDE limited without the endorsement even though you can get the DDE endorsement when you get your 3A/E.
I wish I knew all this when I renewed my 3A/E last month.
Where do I find “Chapter 12 Vol III of the MSM”? The DDE language is not listed in the CFRs with the 3rd asst.
The Marine Safety Manual is hosted on the Homeport Website.
Thanks. The MSM has answered all questions I had.
HI, im a senior at maine maritime academy and i got a job with an osv company in the gulf. I will have a third assistant license when i graduate, is there any other endorsements that i should have added to assist in working in the gulf? I see that i should have the DDE added.
You need to get a DDE license. Your 3rd Assistant license doesn’t let you serve as a DDE, and the academy programs are currently not approved for the DDE license. You will need to either get the extra sea time for DDE, or get your 3rd AE license and complete a Coast Guard approved industry training program (Edison Chouest Offshore/Galliano Training Center has one.
thanks that helps alot!