Crossing Situations with Sailboats

You are correct. Unless you are travelling WITH the flow of traffic. Then you must enter and exit the flow at the shallowest angle.

BTW, your vessel even with her respectable length is still burdened to not impede a power driven vessel which can only navigate in a narrow channel!

It appears that your whole post is about meeting while out at sea. This is one topic. But the larger issue I have is with meeting in narrow channels, or in areas that are surrounded by or navigating through shoals.

My vessel (spectacularly nimble for a 500’ tug and barge) can do a complete circle in just under .33 of a mile. I can stop from full ahead to dead stopped in about 1/2 mile. But my fine ‘high performance’ vessel is not typical of heavy merchantships that you typically meet at sea. Even with my vessels performance I am looking at not starting an avoidance manuver at 2 miles, but having the manuver FINISHED at 2 miles! I mentioned this in an earlier post. Yachters think WAY to late coming from a merchant point of view. Coupled with the lack of ability to actually know what the yachter is seeing, and what it means is what causes these repetitive situations. Going back to RADAR. EBLs are one way to determine if risk of collision exists. Relative motion tracking ‘smears,’ trails, track etc. give the same info. But unless one is educated, first off how to use them, and secondarily what they mean…

[QUOTE=78BM98;83036]I agree more lighting is better. But unfortunately, back to the basics… it is the lack of a Masthead light or Allround that says I am “Sailing vessel” (Rule 25.) It isn’t really an option.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are going to look like a motor driven vessel if you use an allround light but who cares? At least you will be seen! In open water I’m going to get out of the way of a small boat regardless of how she’s lit up.

Coastal, however, I do agree with you, in preferring the red over green.

Bottom line is if I was ocean sailing I’d have sidelights, sternlight and an all-round on the mast. And I’d get the brightest bulbs I could find. Then I’d put lights on my spreaders to illuminate the sails so everyone knows what I am and has no chance of missing me.

[B]TSS Crossing
[/B]

No you’re not obligated to cross at right angles to a TSS. You are obligated to cross " shall cross on a heading [I]as nearly as practicable[/I] at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow" [I][B]if[/B][/I] rule 1-6 didn’t already exclude your situation. Big difference! That’s why you can’t take the rules at face value, you need to interpret the language used.

Must OR Shall = You have to
Should = Do this unless you have a good reason not to
as nearly as practicable = Get as close as you can.

[B]Time/Speed[/B]
Most ships go slower than 24 knots so that gives you a 1/2 hour to respond if your radar is on the 12nm scale which is enough to get out of the way of even the faster ships.

[B]Never Turn Left[/B]
Each night the captain writes his orders in a book on the bridge and sometimes they can be funny. On my first ship the captain wrote “Never turn left unless you need to turn left”

This confused the F out of me but now I understand. The order means to follow the rules but not to stupidity. So take out your rules of the road book and highlight every mention of the word SHALL and MUST. These are the things you have to do EXCEPT under extremis. Everything else is just a suggestion.

Rule 2: “due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, [I][B]including the limitations of the vessels involved[/B][/I], which may make a [I][B]departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger[/B][/I]”

This is the source of the mystical “rule of gross tonnage” it’s also the rule of common sense!

[B][I]Ordering of the rules.[/I][/B]

The rules of the road are listed in order of importance.
Rule 1) Applicability: Is this book even applicable, if not close it.
Rule 2) Responsibility: Is to the safety of your vessel and those around you
Rule 3) Definitions: Every single word in that book was picked apart by countless experts. You need to understand the meanings of each word, including SHALL and MUST, before proceeding.
Rule 4) Rules in this Section apply in any condition of visibility.
Rule 5) Lookout: You need to know what is around you
Rule 6) Safe Speed: You, as a sailboat, are limited in speed so this section is important to you.

  • Look above, all the really IMPORTANT stuff is covered and we haven’t even talked about another ship
    Rule 7a-dii) The rest of rule 7 doesn’t apply unless you meet rule 7a - 7dii. This means if you’re running a crappy radar on a flux gate you can not make assumptions (7c)!

So basically most of the first 7 rules are telling you the rest don’t apply except under very specific circumstances. Do you know why that is? To keep people boneheads from thinking too hard then using the rules to justify a collision. The rules NEVER justify a collision. EVER. Neither will radar, AIS, nav lights or anything else. These things exist only to help.

[B][I]Bottom line
[/I][/B]
The bottom line is you are thinking too hard. You will get in trouble QUICKLY if you follow every rule in the book and play traffic situations as if they are grand master chess games. Instead follow the SHALL’S and MUST’S as much as possible and the rest of the rules as much as practical.

And when you get in trouble throw away every preconceived situation and do what you need to do to get out of the way. Just make sure that, when you do, your actions are clear (positive).

You are mixing up the lights already authorized for sailing vessels.

These are:

When under sail a SV may have either R,G and white stern light. AND may also have a R over G all around light on the masthead for visual confirmation.

OR. A SV may have a tricolor R G W. on the masthead. (But NO other lights).

But no where is a SV allowed to show any other combination of lights when under sail alone.

Some of the ones l particularly like are the tri colored masthead light with a white light below it, or better yet a sailboat with the R over G light on with no other lights. The best ones are the.guys who put every light on because… Well, just to cover their asses. Of course if I do get to talk to one on the radio none even know what I am talking about.

If these majority of SV s can’t even decipher how they should properly be lit. How the hell can they be expected to follow the navigation rules?!

The bottom line, in my opinion, is to memorize the rule book then lock it away and spend $1000 on the brightest running lights you can find, an AIS trasciever and good VHF radio. Then just relax.

You can read all the rules you want but the rule of gross tonnage is king.

And here it is, published for the first time ever…

[U]RULE 69: GROSS TONNAGE
INLAND: (a) All slow moving boats must stay clear of all ships.

INTERNATIONAL:
(a) All ships must stay clear of all slow moving boats unless the ship is RAM.
(b) All slow moving boats must make certain they are seen by all ships.

[/U]Bottom line, in my opinion, is forget the rule book and radar just keep your eyes and ears open, don’t do anything stupid and MAKE SURE I can see you.

Regarding the question of a S/V crossing; First, avoid RoR situation if you can but at some point this isn’t practical. I think it is reasonable to act as the stand on vessel in open waters in a situation with a single vessel.

Then it becomes a question of at what point do you decide that the other vessel is not taking proper action. It is probably smart to play it conservative, if a good bow crossing distance can not be achieved, give it up and let the ship go by.

Also - an AIS is a good investment if you are going to be playing in traffic. At minimum the smart phone version. You’re going to have a lot better success rate with the VHF using the vessel name and/or call sign then the “vessel on my port bow” approach.

K.C.

[QUOTE=cappy208;83062] The best ones are the.guys who put every light on because… Well, just to cover their asses.[/QUOTE]

You’re right, I’m wrong cappy except one line should read should read:

The best ones are the.guys who put every light on because CMJeff (and many others) don’t know and don’t care what you should fly. Just remember that I memorized both the vision and colorblind test in high school and my vision has gone downhill since so make sure my blind ass can see you well before your fiberglass screws up my paint job :wink:

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;83066]Regarding the question of a S/V crossing; First, avoid RoR situation if you can but at some point this isn’t practical. I think it is reasonable to act as the stand on vessel in open waters in a situation with a single vessel.

Then it becomes a question of at what point do you decide that the other vessel is not taking proper action. It is probably smart to play it conservative, if a good bow crossing distance can not be achieved, give it up and let the ship go by.

Also - an AIS is a good investment if you are going to be playing in traffic. At minimum the smart phone version. You’re going to have a lot better success rate with the VHF using the vessel name and/or call sign then the “vessel on my port bow” approach.

K.C.[/QUOTE]

Sage advice!

But I would have a transmitting AIS too. Have you worked with any new 3/m’s lately Capt? If a boat calls them and doesn’t show up on their iphone, radar, ecdis or nintendo 360 then they become deer in the friggin headlights.

[QUOTE=cmjeff;83070]Have you worked with any new 3/m’s lately Capt? If a boat calls them and doesn’t show up on their iphone, radar, ecdis or nintendo 360 then they become deer in the friggin headlights.[/QUOTE]

Tell me about it. Or the deck working lights of a F/V over the horizon that’s not on radar, I’ve been called to the bridge to find the 3/M in full panic mode thinking there is something wrong with the radar

K.C.

[QUOTE=cmjeff;83010] I think gCaptain has an account on cruisers forum. gCaptain’s founder, a licensed ship master, created it a while back to help answer questions like this. Just look for a user named gcaptain[/QUOTE]

That’s correct and I happy to log on and answer any questions directly, now or in the future.

Agree it would be nice to get ahold of you guys on the VHF, also agree with spending money on good lights it’s always difficult to see sailboats at night. Also like the idea of shining lights on your sails. The more visible you are the safer you are.

The most important rule of the road - DON’T HIT ANYTHING

It’s that simple

BCR CPA TCPA all sound useless for you guys. If another vessel’s bearing is constant, do something to change it either a call on the radio or maneuver yourself.

There was a video on YouTube with a tanker hitting a sailboat in a channel and the person video taping it complains that the tanker was the give way vessel, pretty comical.

[QUOTE=crazyelbowbob;83088]

There was a video on YouTube with a tanker hitting a sailboat in a channel and the person video taping it complains that the tanker was the give way vessel, pretty comical.[/QUOTE]

The person taping it was an idiot and surely no sailor. That incident took place off Cowes last year at the entrance to Thorne Channel, where ships make a sharp turn around the Bramble Bank. This is how you get into Southampton Water so a very busy little bit of water. It is a special restricted zone fully controlled by Southampton VTS. Small vessels must keep clear of large ones at all times, full stop, and may not even use the channel unless they must, and provided they don’t interfere with shipping. Southampton VTS keeps a fast cutter with flashing blue lights and a loud siren there which usually chases blow boats away if they get in the way. Every sailor there knows that and no one would ever expect a ship to give way there, which is impossible in the narrow channel.

This conversation has been immensely educational for me and I’d like to say again how grateful I am to you guys for helping to enlighten me. I will pass on my knowledge and maybe this knowledge will help make things a little safer and more convenient out there.

One thing I never realized before this conversation, and which I’m trying to get my head around, is the fact that you guys think in much longer distances and much bigger time horizons than we do.

I’ve gotten some conflicting advice (which is only natural) – a lot of people have said “know the Colregs by heart and live by them, learn to use your bloody navigational gear, and there won’t be any problem”. Others have said something like “don’t make a grandmaster chess game out of it – in open water, stay out of the way as much as you can, use common sense, be as visible as possible, use your VHF, buy a transmitting AIS, and we’ll mostly avoid you if you were too stupid or unaware to keep clear in the first place.”

I do know the Colregs by heart and do know how to use my nav equipment, and [I]thought [/I]that following the rules (especially the rule that if the give-way vessel doesn’t give way in plenty of time, the stand-on vessel must maneuver) was the right way to behave at sea. But I now start to think that some of my assumptions were wrong. In open water, I now understand that you have probably worked out the whole encounter long before I even know you’re out there. It makes me wonder whether it makes sense to wait for 2 miles to maneuver. If at 5 miles off, maybe even 10 miles off, we are on 0 CPA courses, then probably you’re not ever going to manuever, is that right? I am guessing that at 5 miles away, you were long, long ago fully committed to whatever maneuver you made or didn’t make, something hard for us to understand – even one mile away [I]seems [/I]like a long ways to us.

Looking back on my real experience in the English Channel (so probably hundreds of encounters with ships) there were probably hundreds of other encounters which I was simply never aware of – you saw me from over the horizon, made a small alteration of course, and we never came near to each other. My radar will not detect you from more than 12 miles off or so, and I don’t think I can see you from much more than that, either, from my deck which is only 1.5 meters above the water. But I have a large radar reflector which is near the top of my 75 foot mast, so with your powerful radars I bet you can see me for and hour or more before I ever know you’re there.

I always thought that it would be wrong for me to maneuver spontaneously if I am the stand-on vessel – I am obligated to hold course and speed, at least for a while, under the Colregs. I always thought that the purpose of that was to allow the give-way vessel the first chance to work out the crossing. Now I start to think that these thoughts are occurring too late to be of any value – if it’s still a 0 CPA situation five miles out it’s already too late to “give you a chance” to work out the crossing. Maybe at 5 miles off I should just heave-to until there is no potential issue and not overthink it. But this is not what the Colregs say I should be doing.

What I have always taught young sailors is that being a stand-on vessel is not anything like having the “right of way”. There is no such thing as “right of way” at sea. Standing on is not a right, but an [I]obligation [/I]for one vessel to hold still so that the other vessel can work out the proper manuever to resolve the situation – if both vessels maneuver at the same time, no one can work it out, and they may simply maneuver into each other. Now I start to think that this may be to some extent empty theory with limited application to encounters between yachts and commercial shipping – simply because of your longer time and distance horizons, and because of the great difference in speed between us.

Another thing I have learned is that it is absolutely paramount for us to be capable of determining whether or not a 0 CPA situation exists. I imagine a horror scenario is if a yacht doesn’t realize and can’t calculate that you have long since set a course which has you crossing a mile or two ahead of him, and makes a sudden manuever a mile or two off which screws up the crossing, in the mistaken belief that he is avoiding a potential collision which doesn’t exist. I guess a lot of recreational sailors don’t really know how to use their HBCs and don’t really know much more than “oh there’s a big ship over there; quick let’s get out of the way” – and this thought is occurring to them far too late for any really safe manuever. We try to pound it into their heads that they must know the Colregs and must use their HBC’s, but it doesn’t always stick there.

Hmmmm.

Your last paragraph pretty well sums up the issue.

From my perspective, having come from a yachting background, I can confirm: "what I THOUGHT I knew about what I was looking at on the RADAR was quickly erased upon taking a “RADAR observer course”.

I am not sure if there is a 'yachter short course". The commercial version is 7 or 8 days, and about 1200 bucks. I don’t think that length is needed for yachters, but certainly a day long course would be helpful. Even having a couple guys take the full course and go back and have a seminar on rapid radar plotting and explaining the differences between “True Motion” and “Relative Motion” would be a huge help.

As I found out, what you THINK you are seeing in the scope is NOT what is really happening. But it can’t be shown or explained via this forum. You have to be shown and explained by a real person.

Actually after reading all the responses I believe reitterating a simple primer on coastal navigation with emphasis on comparing relative motion and determining risk of collision is what is needed. Getting too fancy with all the electronics is useless because of the hours of use that are needed to gain proficiency is non existant and to far and few inbetween to maintain proficiency

[QUOTE=WAFI;83106]

I always thought that it would be wrong for me to maneuver spontaneously if I am the stand-on vessel – I am obligated to hold course and speed, at least for a while, under the Colregs. I always thought that the purpose of that was to allow the give-way vessel the first chance to work out the crossing. Now I start to think that these thoughts are occurring too late to be of any value – if it’s still a 0 CPA situation five miles out it’s already too late to “give you a chance” to work out the crossing. Maybe at 5 miles off I should just heave-to until there is no potential issue and not overthink it. But this is not what the Colregs say I should be doing.[/QUOTE]

I think that the COLREGs should be followed. But start with Rule #2, the rule of good seamanship and then into the maneuvering rules. The mistake S/V make in confined waters is not understanding the situation, eg narrow channel or more then one vessel, not taking into account the limitation of other vessels, sailing in the deep draft channel when there is plenty of water outside etc

It seems to me you are experienced and have the correct approach but “5 miles off” is an oversimplification. I think the question is, how risky is my situation if the other ship fails to maneuver as required. If you’re trying to cross ahead of a 25 kt ship where is the point at which you decide the on-coming vessel is not taking the appropriate action? You can be conservative and still be in compliance with the COLREGS.

K.C.

Having been on both big ships and S/V and, having been in a few “too close for comfort” situations, I have made my own rules from a S/V point of view:

  • You are there for the fun. The big ship is there for the money. Make sure that at the end of the day the fun has prevailed…
  • When there is a weight difference of more than 10 to 1, the lighter ship is the one going to be in trouble.

Seriously:
In narrow waters, channels, sea lanes etc… consider big ships as freight trains: they will not turn, they cannot stop on time. Any S/V can stop, tack or jib within a few hundred feet. Big ships maneuver over miles.

Never assume that the big ship has seen you, especially at night. There are at least ten reasons (good and bad ones) it may have missed you. On a winter pitch-dark night with a strong Mistral storm and very choppy seas, half-way between Corsica and France, on a big ship with both long and short range radars, a fully staffed bridge team, we spotted a tiny wooden S/V barely one NM dead ahead, on a 0 CPA. We spotted her because she saw us first and lit her storm jib with a flashlight…

CPA is critical but it is not a big fuss. You just need a bearing compass. A 0 CPA? Do something right away, don’t wait. By altering your course early by just a few degrees, you will be safe without adding too much distance to your route. A bow cross? If any doubt on how close it is going to be, make it a stern cross…

Keep monitoring your CPA. Big ships do alter course and speed… S/V drift… It is not because you are safe now that you will still be safe fifteen minutes from now.
At close range, do not bother with radar, AIS and other fancy stuff. Your eyes and brain are always going to be better and faster. LOOK OUT!

Do not be shy to use the VHF. At least, it tells the big ship that you are aware of the situation. Do ask the big ship for its speed and route. You will be surprised: the size, shape and speed of modern freighters are very deceiving. Do not ask the big ship what his intentions are but, tell him what you plan to do and ask him if that is OK with him.

There is much minutiae being discussed here but I think basic principles are more cogent since the rules are not perfect nor the appearance of one vessel to another in a crossing situation is often hard to truly interpret to the other vessel.

The rules are old and predate pleasure sailing vessels. They were promulgated when there were commercial sailing vessels which being significantly larger were much more difficult to maneuver to avoid collision by reason of weather and simple need to tack or wear if an alteration of course was not enough. I believe that is why they were granted the right of way over a motor vessel. A 12m sloop is far more maneuverable that 90m barque so I believe that simple common sense should apply if you’re a small yacht in a crossing situation. The basic principle for a sailing yacht to remember is that it is easier for my boat to alter its course/speed that a 25000ton tanker regardless of where the meeting takes place. The rules for maneuvering and avoidance apply after the risk of collision is deemed to exist so I say that for the safety of all, a sailing vessel captain should do everything in his power to avoid getting into a ROC situation by taking the earliest action. It is far better and safer for all parties concerned to follow the unofficial “big vessel rule”.

Now, narrow channel and seperation schemes are pretty clear that the sailing vessel better stay clear regardless that the rules don’t make that absolute. I would not want to challenge a commercial vessel in a channel and I’d stay well out of the way by staying well to the side of a channel or scheme. Common sense again.

Lookout is critical and if I have one beef at all regarding sailboats is that they don’t keep a true lookout but any means but the worse is in the dark or twilight. If you are under sail at night, you should have two constant lookouts. One to windward and one to leeward. I’d be nervous as hell at night under sail that my puny lights will not be seen in adequate time by a large vessel. On our side, lookout is also sometimes sadly lacking which must be considered because regardless who might have the right of way, if there is a collision my vessel will sink while the large commercial vessel may not even know I was even hit?

Just food for thought for the community

There is much good dialogue here. My background is both S/V and now commercial vessels, and I would add the following two items:

  1. Use your radar reflector. WAFI, you mentioned you have on mounted high on your mast. Great! All S/Vs should carry to to better be seen on our radar.
  2. If you don’t have a VHF RAM in the cockpit, get a handheld. Not much of an investment to be able to communicate.

So for about US$250 you can reduce everyone’s pucker factor out there.

[QUOTE=WAFI;82988]Thanks, this is all very useful!

Concerning our radars – let me tell you a little about how they work. Naturally we have EBL and VRM and most of us even know how to use them :slight_smile: We have a crappy version of ARPA called MARPA, which, however, does not actually work. It does not work because it needs precise heading data, and most of us have crappy fluxgate compasses which do not give data sufficient to get usable information out of MARPA. Gyro stabilized electronic compasses and GPS compasses are very expensive and few of us have them. For the same reason, our radars do not give us reliable bearing to target data unless you average a series of logged bearings – very tedious. Our radars are really only good for two things – detection of targets we can’t see, and precise range measurements (which of course is extremely useful).

So we have to calculate CPA and TCPA by hand. Since often on our boats the helmsman, navigator, and radar operator are one person, the work load is just not worth it. So what we do is take bearings with a hand bearing compass, at two minute intervals sometimes, and log these bearings. A 0 CPA situation can be identified very far out this way – I think it’s a good technique. With the HBC, we can tell if you change course, and we can tell whether our own manuever has resolved a situation. We don’t know exactly how many miles cables away we will be at CPA, but we can make a good guess.

I always keep a HBC around my neck in the cockpit, and I think most ocean-going sailors do too when they are near shipping lanes.[/QUOTE]

Grease pencil and a straight edge=quick CPA. All you need is two marks on the sreen at a convenient interval (six minutes works) and a line through them extended through your course…assuming everybody keeps doing what they’re doing. Voila! CPA, plus, if you really want to get salty, his course and speed.

And by ALL means, give a quick call on 16. There’s a real person on the bridge of that big boat whose livelyhood and a good nights’ sleep depend on, among other things, not running over a little boat. Be professional on the radio. It’ll do wonders for how other mariners perceive you.

Nemo

I always ask the sailor if he can name the 4 cases where sail gives way to power…then proceed