Crossing Situations with Sailboats

Please teach Saiboaters to NOT show a Masthead light or Allround white while “sailing”…The sailboat may think they are showing they are a “sailing vessel” and someone else sees a “power driven vessel” thru the binoculars… Also, some older vessels that have been rewired a few times may just have a NAVLIGHTS switch on the panel they found at the boaters fleamarket. Occasionaly, they may be lit up as a power driven vessel and not know it.

Also, quit tacking back and forth - changing your CPA every 2 minutes !

Use your VHF. What necessary maneuver is worked out between two vessels is usually in compliance. Communicating intentions goes a long way in avoiding collisions and near miss situations.

The simple answer is education:

Education in how to use your electronics. What the information IS that you get from electronics.

Education about the whole COLREGS ‘rules of the road’ and how it applies to everyone. Specifically that ANY vessel under 20 meters is prohibited from impeding the navigation of a powerdriven vessel that can only navigate within a marked channel.

And specifically that ALL vessels must have a proper lookout at all times while underway. Part of the concept of a proper lookout is that you must use all available means to determine if risk of collision exists. This means that you MUST use RADAR if fitted ( note not your choice if it is on or not). You must use all means available to you. This is not an ‘opt out’ program.

The third part is education as to how to use relative bearing manually to determine bearing change (or no change). This does not need a hand compass, or any fancy tools. It simply requires a set of eyes and the knowledge of how to interpret what you are seeing.

WAFI, Don’t forget the rule of gross tonnages. Will my little dinky sailboat and I survive if that big old merchant ship runs me down? AS far as VHF radio is concerned, monitor Channel 16 at all times. Talk to commercial craft with which you might have a situation developing. Call other pleasure craft and your yaght harbourmasters on channel 9. That keeps 16 free for distress and hailing.

[QUOTE=cappy208;82848]Oh boy. This ought to be good!

To take it a bit closer to home, the last time you were in a race, rounding a mark, and the guy next to you started to yell: “Starboard” how did you respond? Did you casually look the other way, and pretend to not hear him? I KNOW how this works. I have seen it. And everyone looks sheepishly away, as if to say, I didn’t see him, so its not my fault. That is the problem yachters must overcome.

You make several false assumptions. Unfortunately these false assumptions are fostered and passed on amongst your fellow yachters. I am a sailor. I see, hear, and deal with this both from a yachters’ standpoint and the commercial mariners standpoint.

You state several times that some feel there should be NO communication between vessels. This is specifically NOT what is in the colregs. The intention of colregs is to use ALL means to determine if risk of collision exists. So the flawed concept of not using ALL Means to avoid collision is not following the regs in the first place.

You mention during crossing situations. This happens during all phases of navigation. This is actually most prevalent during meeting, crossing and overtaking situations.

The hardest things to understand about the Colregs is that there is usually not just one rule that one must know. Depending upon the location and the navigation situation of the vessels involved, a specific vessel actually does NOT have the right of way in all circumstances! But how many of your brethren only read the one paragraph that says: "sailing vessels have the right of way over power driven vessels.’ There are three other rules I can think of offhand, which negate the previous thought of ‘sailboats’ superiority. But the yachters must learn them.

You mention ‘yacht’ radars not having CPA information available. This is false. I have not seen a RADAR made that does not have an EBL function. (Electronic Bearing Line) A little education about the information that is garnered from using an EBL IS exactly how you can tell if there is a -0- CPA or not, or if (the legal description) risk of collision exists. So it would appear that the USE of the equipment is what is contributing to the lack of knowledge. According to the rules, even a stand on vessel once it has been determined that risk of collision exists, they must try to avoid collision also. But this is hard to do when the stand on vessel is not even aware of, and doesn’t know how to properly judge when/if risk of collision exists!

Regarding using the radio: This is a double edged topic. Most all sailboats I have been on, the VHF is remote from the helm station. To use the radio, the operator must leave the helm (and lose what situational awareness they may have had) talk to the other vessel, and then return to the helm, and do what was discussed and agreed upon.

Re reading your post and your responses, makes it appear that there is some ‘race authority’ or yacht organisation which is giving faulty advise about not manning a radio while navigating. This is contrary to what is taught in professional COLREGS rules courses.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, this is all very useful!

Concerning the radio – the authority which discourages using VHF in collision avoidance is not some yacht authority, but the MCA – the UK shipping authority. The directive was addressed to professional mariners. I was not arguing myself against radio use – on the contrary, I was trying to find out whether you guys really want to talk with us or not. I was very surprised by the unanimous answer in favor of radio calls. I think I understand the theory behind the MCA directive, but I am much more interested in your opinions and will definitely communicate this to our members at CF.

Concerning our radars – let me tell you a little about how they work. Naturally we have EBL and VRM and most of us even know how to use them :slight_smile: We have a crappy version of ARPA called MARPA, which, however, does not actually work. It does not work because it needs precise heading data, and most of us have crappy fluxgate compasses which do not give data sufficient to get usable information out of MARPA. Gyro stabilized electronic compasses and GPS compasses are very expensive and few of us have them. For the same reason, our radars do not give us reliable bearing to target data unless you average a series of logged bearings – very tedious. Our radars are really only good for two things – detection of targets we can’t see, and precise range measurements (which of course is extremely useful).

So we have to calculate CPA and TCPA by hand. Since often on our boats the helmsman, navigator, and radar operator are one person, the work load is just not worth it. So what we do is take bearings with a hand bearing compass, at two minute intervals sometimes, and log these bearings. A 0 CPA situation can be identified very far out this way – I think it’s a good technique. With the HBC, we can tell if you change course, and we can tell whether our own manuever has resolved a situation. We don’t know exactly how many miles cables away we will be at CPA, but we can make a good guess.

I always keep a HBC around my neck in the cockpit, and I think most ocean-going sailors do too when they are near shipping lanes.

Reminds me of this…When I was young I lived aboard a sail boat (not into sailing, just wanted to live on a boat). We had a neighbor that spent years fixing up his boat and planning his cruising retirement. The guy came across as a super knowledgeable guy. I think he likely read and memorized every book on sailing, cruising, etc. When his big day came, he made it a few miles before having to turn around and come home. After just several weeks the coast guard apparently had an “idiot file” on this guy…and by the time he made it a couple of hundred miles, he was basically told to tie his boat up and don’t ever untie it! Don’t know what ever happened to that guy…BUT…

The moral of the story is this. Tell your forum buddies to quit trying to interpret all the rules, and quit over thinking everything. The simple answer is this…just get the hell out of the way. If it ends up being a close situation that sneaks up on you…the same advice goes. Pretty simple and easy.

[QUOTE=WAFI;82791]
One thing to keep in mind: We often do not have the technical resources you do. The question is a lot easier for anyone who has AIS, of course. But a lot of sailors, like me, use a hand bearing compass and recreational radar set which is good for calculating distance, but which does not produce meaningful CPA data.[/QUOTE]

You are talking about two different scenarios here.

  1. I’d stay well clear if there is any chance the ship can’t see you so… If all you have is radar and a hand compass on a small boat then you risk not being seen and need to stay away.

  2. If you are sure the ship can see you (you have an AIS TRANSMITTING & a CLEAR view of the ship’s bridge) then follow the colregs and be sure to listen carefully to the VHF.

What’s a WAFI?

[QUOTE=highseasharry;82915]I read the advisory from MCA and thoroughly disagree with the sentence that advises against the use of VHF radio.

This topic reminds me of the lessons learned from the Andrea Doria/Stockholm collision which is often referred to as a “radar-assisted collision”. The Andrea Doria/Stockholmn collision was a result of improper use of radar equipment. Operator-error, plain and simple. The advisory from MCA should say the same thing: IMPROPER use of the VHF radio must be avoided.

If you are going to contact another vessel by radio, the first thing to do is “engage brain before putting mouth in gear”. Identify yourself so that another vessel can determine who you are. “I am the white two-masted sailboat at buoy 32 calling the eastbound passenger ferry. I am on your port bow at about 2 miles distance.” You should also assume a commercial vessel is tracking you by radar and/or other means and has your approximate course and speed displayed before them. “I am the sailing vessel on a northerly course at 6 knots on your starboard bow.”

What doesn’t work is “I am calling the ship on my starboard side, do you see me?” Or, “This is the blue sailboat calling the big ship.” Tell ME where to look to see YOU.

Once I know who you are and you know who I am, we can begin making arrangements.

Now, let’s go back to “engage brain before putting mouth in gear”. You assume there is risk of collision. What are you going to do about it? Think ahead. “I will alter my course to starboard and pass astern of you.” Or, “I can alter my course to starboard; can you do the same and we will pass port-to-port?” Or, “What would you like me to do to stay out of your way?”

Keep your message short and to-the-point. A long-winded diatribe uses valuable time and makes for a one-sided communication.

Once you have made arrangements, the worst thing you can do is turn the radio off. Situations can change; stand-by the radio until you are fully past and clear. And even though it may not work this way in real life, we all know maintaining a listening-watch at all times when underway is an obligation.

Knowing and following the COLREGS is fundamental and should always take precedence, but the VHF radio is an affordable, simple tool that can turn a possible disaster into a routine meeting. Use it, but use it wisely.

Harry[/QUOTE]

Extremely useful information – thank you! I will share this with participants on CF if you don’t mind.

[QUOTE=WAFI;82988]Thanks, this is all very useful!

Concerning the radio – the authority which discourages using VHF in collision avoidance is not some yacht authority, but the MCA – the UK shipping authority. The directive was addressed to professional mariners. I was not arguing myself against radio use – on the contrary, I was trying to find out whether you guys really want to talk with us or not.[/QUOTE]

[B]Let me make this clear:
[/B]If there are lots of other boats around then don’t call just stay clear.
If not then, as long as I can see you, I don’t care much if you call me or not BUT don’t turn off the VHF! I might need to call you.

[B]Speed:[/B]
You are also missing a critical factor, speed. There isn’t much collision avoidance you can do on a sailboat once a containership going 26 knots enters the 24 mile rings on your radar and anything data past 24 miles is bogus unless you have an Aegis Combat System aboard. He’s going to have to get out of your way, so make sure he can see you (Spend the $500 of a decent AIS).

So if he doesn’t give you a CPA of, at least, a mile (2 if you want to play it safe) and the TCPA is less than about 30 minutes. CALL HIM.

[B]BCR:
[/B]One other tip, CPA is important but is not nearly as critical as BCR, BOW CROSSING RANGE. [I][B]If I have the opportunity to pound only one thing[/B][/I] into every boaters head it’s [U][I][B]KNOW YOUR BCR[/B][/I][/U].
My suggestion make sure to keep your BCR above 10NM (at least!) OR less than -1NM (that’s a NEGATIVE 1) so that your crossing my stern.
(Do AIS-B units even show the BCR? If not they should!)

[B]Security calls:
[/B]If you get caught with your pants down (radar fails or you have to enter a restricted waterway in low visibility) and can’t see the surrounding ship (meaning they also can’t see you!) do a Sécurité call. I love Sécurité calls because it gives me the information I need and I don’t have to respond.

[B]AIS-A VS AIS-B[/B]
If you are on a small boat (especially a sailboat) please get an AIS B unit and use it all the time. I know some boaters prefer the AIS-A because they make you look like a ship, and I agree they have better range and frequency of updates, but they confuse the situation in congested ports. If I owned a sailboat (and if money was no object) I’d have both and run the AIS-B in congested waters and AIS-A in open water. But that’s just me.

[I][B]Do You NEED an AIS?[/B][/I]
If you stay close to shore and only sail during daytime in nice weather then, by all means , save your $500 for something else. Otherwise you’re just being ignorant not purchasing one! Why?
It is very unlikely that anyone who is responding to this post is going to hit you. We are all competent sailors and have no desire to cause you any harm or even annoyance. BUT many less reputable mariners are asleep at the wheel and only wake when the AIS collision alarm goes off. Sad but true. And I’ve heard of a few watchstanders rigging the AIS screen so they can “watch” traffic from their office or stateroom. It’s unlikely you’ll encounter this in US waters but head off the coast of China and you can get in trouble quick.

Also watch out for the “most dangerous hour in shipping”: 22:00 to 23:45 this is the time when brand new 3rd mates right out of the academies are alone on the bridge. These young officers are smart, qualified and well-meaning but they have been raised on video games and trained on computer simulators. Many don’t yet know how to use binoculars or take a visual bearing effectively (not that they haven’t been trained, just that they lack experience). So if you don’t show up on their AIS screen then they are going to struggle in figuring out how to avoid you. In short, just buy the stupid AIS and save yourself the worry.

[I][B]Here are the CMJeff rules for WAFI’s who want to play it safe:
[/B][/I]Keep your BCR above 10NM or (preferably) below [B][I]negative[/I][/B] 1NM
Buy a transmitting AIS and a quality antenna.
If there are lots of other boats around then don’t call just stay clear.

If you don’t call me then be sure to tuen to Ch16 and listen.
Speed is a critical factor, a sailboat going 6 knots can’t get out of my way so if the CPA is less than 2 miles and the TCPA is less than about 30 minutes. CALL HIM.
If you loose visibility or radar when crossing a shipping lane then make a security call.
Inside the seabouy of major ports forget AIS and VHF and just stay out of the way.

To clarify about ARPA AND M(ini)ARPA. ARPA and MARPA information is only giving good, accurate info if both vessels have been on steady headings and kept constant speed. So there are 4 items which must be the same. 2 courses and 2 speeds. An ARPA can only generate accurate info after receiving constant speed and heading for 3 minutes. It gives general data after 1 minute, but it takes 3 minutes for it to average it out well. But put into this equation a course/speed change and you have just wasted 3 minutes awaiting bad electronical data. The information gained by ARPA can be readily had by simple use of the EBL. Yes, this requires a steady heading. Or simply looking at an oncoming vessel and learning to use ranges on your own vessel to keep track of bearing drift. For instance while sitting at the helm, and keeping your head in the same general position watching the oncoming vessel compared to… Say lifeline stanchions, shrouds, handrails etc etc. This is what we do every day to determine if risk of collision exists. The difficulty of assessing large targets is because an inexperienced boater will use the wrong end of the large vessel. If the vessel is going to pass ahead, you must pay attention to the stern. And if the ship is going to pass astern then you must pay attention to the bow.

[QUOTE=cmjeff;82991]You are talking about two different scenarios here.

  1. I’d stay well clear if there is any chance the ship can’t see you so… If all you have is radar and a hand compass on a small boat then you risk not being seen and need to stay away.

  2. If you are sure the ship can see you (you have an AIS TRANSMITTING & a CLEAR view of the ship’s bridge) then follow the colregs and be sure to listen carefully to the VHF.

What’s a WAFI?[/QUOTE]

Thanks. What I do – and I would be interested in hearing criticism of it, if you have any – is this.

If I can identify a potential close quarters situation at the horizon, and it’s not a case like the English Channel with ships spaced 2 miles apart all the way out to the Atlantic, then I will alter course right then to pass well astern of you, whether or not I would be the stand-on vessel in a Colregs situation.

If I’m 5 or 6 miles from you, and I am seeing something like a 0 CPA, and I am supposed to be the stand-on vessel, then I will wait a little to see if you are going to make the first move (as the Colregs seem to require).

If at 2 miles out you have not changed course, then I will make my own move – usually I will tack onto a reciprocal course so that you pass by rapidly (but sometimes I will heave-to and just wait while you go by), then tack again to pass behind your stern.

That seems to me to be the best practice, but if someone has any different ideas I would be most interested in hearing them.

One thing I will probably add for sure to this procedure is to call on VHF if I have departed from Colregs to maneuver myself – just in case the ship decides to turn towards me at the same time, God forbid. But two miles should be far enough out so that even this shouldn’t create a hopeless situation, or what do you think?

In open water, I try to stay two miles away from commercial shipping and never pass ahead unless there are three or four miles. That’s why I stop standing on at two miles and starting maneuvering myself. It’s not always possible crossing the English Channel (which I do frequently) because there are often lines of ships spaced two miles apart. It is hard for us to get through these lines of ships without someone besides us altering course – it’s like being a squirrel trying to run across a busy motorway, let me tell you :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=78BM98;82933]Please teach Saiboaters to NOT show a Masthead light or Allround white while “sailing”…The sailboat may think they are showing they are a “sailing vessel” and someone else sees a “power driven vessel” thru the binoculars… Also, some older vessels that have been rewired a few times may just have a NAVLIGHTS switch on the panel they found at the boaters fleamarket. Occasionaly, they may be lit up as a power driven vessel and not know it.

Also, quit tacking back and forth - changing your CPA every 2 minutes ![/QUOTE]

Maybe in inland waters but I disagree with this advice fully once the boat departs the seabuoy. I like the white light on the saiboats because I can see it from a distance. The red and green mast headlights I’ve seen on small boats are never powerful enough to get my attention.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[QUOTE=WAFI;82998]Thanks. What I do – and I would be interested in hearing criticism of it, if you have any – is this.

If I can identify a potential close quarters situation at the horizon, and it’s not a case like the English Channel with ships spaced 2 miles apart all the way out to the Atlantic, then I will alter course right then to pass well astern of you, whether or not I would be the stand-on vessel in a Colregs situation.

If I’m 5 or 6 miles from you, and I am seeing something like a 0 CPA, and I am supposed to be the stand-on vessel, then I will wait a little to see if you are going to make the first move (as the Colregs seem to require).

If at 2 miles out you have not changed course, then I will make my own move – usually I will tack onto a reciprocal course so that you pass by rapidly (but sometimes I will heave-to and just wait while you go by), then tack again to pass behind your stern.

That seems to me to be the best practice, but if someone has any different ideas I would be most interested in hearing them.

One thing I will probably add for sure to this procedure is to call on VHF if I have departed from Colregs to maneuver myself – just in case the ship decides to turn towards me at the same time, God forbid. But two miles should be far enough out so that even this shouldn’t create a hopeless situation, or what do you think?

In open water, I try to stay two miles away from commercial shipping and never pass ahead unless there are three or four miles. That’s why I stop standing on at two miles and starting maneuvering myself. It’s not always possible crossing the English Channel (which I do frequently) because there are often lines of ships spaced two miles apart. It is hard for us to get through these lines of ships without someone besides us altering course – it’s like being a squirrel trying to run across a busy motorway, let me tell you :)[/QUOTE]

How are you going to get out of the way of a ship moving 20+ knots if you wait until 5 miles. NO SIR. That won’t do. I said 10 miles ahead NOT 3. 10!

it’s like being a squirrel trying to run across a busy motorway,

That’s why you DON’T CROSS AT RIGHT ANGLES. Merge into traffic like you’d do on a highway then scoot over.

THIS ISN’T ABOUT YOU.

Get this through your head. THERE IS OFTEN NOTHING YOU CAN DO EXCEPT MAKING SURE YOU ARE SEEN especially when you’re under sail.

How fast is your boat?

I’ve been master on ships that had a max speed of 8 knots and do you know what I did? I told my mates to throw the colregs out the window and just make sure of only two things:

  1. they stay between the buoys
  2. that everyone knows where we are

You have no other options when you are going that slow!

If you want to take control then you need to:

  1. start your maneuver while the ship has a TCPA of at least 30 minutes.
  2. Don’t worry about ARPA or colregs just point your bow at his stern and keep it there (you’ll be changing course) until he passes.

f at 2 miles out you have not changed course, then I will make my own move – usually I will tack onto a reciprocal course so that you pass by rapidly (but sometimes I will heave-to and just wait while you go by), then tack again to pass behind your stern.

This is good I’d just do it sooner. REMEMBER SPEED. I almost wish CPA was removed from radar screens because it’s useless. I look at BCR first, TCPA second and CPA third. Yes you will be fine tacking at 2miles if the ship is a big-ugly rig moving at 6 knots but if it’s a containership moving at 26 knots then TCPA is less than 5 minutes :eek:. So strip CPA out of your vocabulary and get back to basics.

Does this make sense?

PS: Guys feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, I’m at the airport after a long crew change.

PS2: I think gCaptain has an account on cruisers forum. gCaptain’s founder, a licensed ship master, created it a while back to help answer questions like this. Just look for a user named gcaptain

[QUOTE=WAFI;82998]Thanks. What I do – and I would be interested in hearing criticism of it, if you have any – is this.

If I can identify a potential close quarters situation at the horizon, and it’s not a case like the English Channel with ships spaced 2 miles apart all the way out to the Atlantic, then I will alter course right then to pass well astern of you, whether or not I would be the stand-on vessel in a Colregs situation.

If I’m 5 or 6 miles from you, and I am seeing something like a 0 CPA, and I am supposed to be the stand-on vessel, then I will wait a little to see if you are going to make the first move (as the Colregs seem to require).

If at 2 miles out you have not changed course, then I will make my own move – usually I will tack onto a reciprocal course so that you pass by rapidly (but sometimes I will heave-to and just wait while you go by), then tack again to pass behind your stern.

That seems to me to be the best practice, but if someone has any different ideas I would be most interested in hearing them.

One thing I will probably add for sure to this procedure is to call on VHF if I have departed from Colregs to maneuver myself – just in case the ship decides to turn towards me at the same time, God forbid. But two miles should be far enough out so that even this shouldn’t create a hopeless situation, or what do you think?

In open water, I try to stay two miles away from commercial shipping and never pass ahead unless there are three or four miles. That’s why I stop standing on at two miles and starting maneuvering myself. It’s not always possible crossing the English Channel (which I do frequently) because there are often lines of ships spaced two miles apart. It is hard for us to get through these lines of ships without someone besides us altering course – it’s like being a squirrel trying to run across a busy motorway, let me tell you :)[/QUOTE]

Sounds about right to me. It helps to have a methodical approach. One point I’d make is that if you believe the S/V is the stand-on vessel I’d call the give-way vessel at 4 miles and ask “what are your intentions” and maneuver at 2 miles if things are not resolved.

I tell my mates to make sure everyone’s intentions are clear for all vessels within 4 miles, preferably by early and substantial action or by VHF if need be.

K.C.

[QUOTE=WAFI;82988 It does not work because it needs precise heading data, and most of us have crappy fluxgate compasses which do not give data sufficient to get usable information out of MARPA. Gyro stabilized electronic compasses and GPS compasses are very expensive and few of us have them. [/QUOTE]

GPS compasses are crap unless they use two antennas that are separated by at least 50 feet, fluxgate are worse.

Our radars are really only good for two things – detection of targets we can’t see, and precise range measurements (which of course is extremely useful).

Yes but at what range are they effective?

The answer: Most small boat radars are effective at picking up targets ar 12 miles and decent up to 24. For many of the expensive boating HD radars it’s even less. That’s it.

So if a containership is moving at with a combined speed of 34 knots (he’s moving 26 and you’re moving 24) that means when you hit the effective range or 12 miles you only have 21 minutes to react and that’s if you’re glued to the radar. If you are down below on the head when the radar picks the ship up at 12 miles and it takes you 6 minutes to pump that toilet flush then another 5 before you look at the radar screen then you only have 10 minutes left to react.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;83013] “what are your intentions” and maneuver at 2 miles.[/QUOTE]

Kennebec I respect your posts here more than any ones, honest. But how is a boat with a top speed of 8 knots going to get out of the way in time? Even if it’s a slow tanker approaching at 12 knots he only has 10 minutes to maneuver.

Remember, this is a sailboat, his boat speed is going to drop to zero once he tacks and it will take him 10 minutes to get back to 8 knots. And that’s only if the wind is good.

[QUOTE=cmjeff;83016]. But how is a boat with a top speed of 8 knots going to get out of the way in time? Even if it’s a slow tanker approaching at 12 knots he only has 10 minutes to maneuver.

Remember, this is a sailboat, his boat speed is going to drop to zero once he tacks and it will take him 10 minutes to get back to 8 knots. And that’s only if the wind is good.[/QUOTE]

Agreed - if there is a large discrepancy in vessel speeds a method which relies upon distance primarily is not going to be as effective as one that takes into account time as well.

K.C.

I agree more lighting is better. But unfortunately, back to the basics… it is the lack of a Masthead light or Allround that says I am “Sailing vessel” (Rule 25.) It isn’t really an option.

[QUOTE=cmjeff;83010]
That’s why you DON’T CROSS AT RIGHT ANGLES. Merge into traffic like you’d do on a highway then scoot over.

[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand this – this goes against everything we were taught. Why, if we “merge into traffic” don’t we become a tremendous hazard to you? We are only making 10, 8, maybe only 5 or 6 knots (my boat, since you asked, is 60 feet LOA and I will usually be making 8 or 9 knots; sometimes 10 or 12 in a good blow).

We are actually obligated to cross TSS at right angles – so that we get out of there as fast as possible. If we “merge into traffic”, doesn’t that mean we end up in the traffic lane for much longer, creating many more problems?

This has been a tremendously enlightening discussion for me – thank you all.

One of the many things I have learned is that you think in much greater distances and much greater time spans than we do. 24 miles off! That’s not anywhere in our thought-horizon! Something 24 miles off for us might as well be on Mars. Our radars, if they even work at that distance, are never set to show it – 6 miles is usually good enough. Yet you are telling me that it’s already [I]too late[/I] to avoid a fast container ship if I only start thinking about him at 24 miles! Incredible.

You’re also telling me that I can’t do anything to avoid a collision with a much faster vessel once we are 30 minutes apart. Why, 30 minutes TCPA is probably the [I]maximum[/I] time ahead we ever think about any encounter.

I am truly humbled and feeling like a real WAFI at this moment. :frowning: