Crossing Situations with Sailboats

Professional Mariner Forum
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Hi Guys:

I’m a moderator over at Cruisers Forum, which is a quite large site for cruising sailors. We have 100,000+ members. We share the seas with you, and while almost all of of us have a healthy respect for commercial shipping and some of us are quite skillful mariners, many of us do not adequately understand the Colregs or know how to behave when we find ourselves on an intersecting course with a large commercial vessel.

We have had a hot debate recently about how to deal with crossing situations with commercial shipping. One faction advocates thorough understanding of the Colregs and following them – identifying “0 CPA” situations as early as possible, and standing on, at least for a while, if that’s what the Colregs require, to give the other vessel a chance to make the first move as required by the Colregs. But then maneuvering ourselves if the other vessel doesn’t make any alteration in course by the time the vessels are, say, two miles apart – recognizing that sometimes you can’t see us. The argument is that it helps the guy on the bridge of the other vessel if we don’t manuever in an unexpected way – if we do what the Colregs require.

The second faction says something like – forget the Colregs – tonnage rules – just get the hell out of the way. The first faction says – of course keep out of the way if you can do it really early, but if you find yourself on an intersecting course at four or five miles off, and you are supposed to be the stand-on vessel, it hurts rather than helps the guy on the bridge to start manuevering willy-nilly, without giving him a chance to work out his own maneuver.

Does anybody want to comment on this? We know that we cause you guys a lot of irritation sometimes, and we’ve heard the term WAFI before :). We would like to be less like WAFIs and more like responsible users of the sea. Your input might really help us.

One thing to keep in mind: We often do not have the technical resources you do. The question is a lot easier for anyone who has AIS, of course. But a lot of sailors, like me, use a hand bearing compass and recreational radar set which is good for calculating distance, but which does not produce meaningful CPA data.

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The name says it all.

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How’s this for an answer. Grab a copy of the official Navigation Rules. Read it, learn it, live by it. Take a radar class. Learn how to use a radar plotting sheet. Problem solved.

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@WAFI - Good question!

I would say there are three possible situations. First a simple encounter between two vessels in open water. Second is a complex situation involving more then one vessel, narrow channels, TSS and so forth. The third situation is the grey area between situations 1 and 2.

In situation #1, open waters if I spot a sail boat I am going to stay well clear and no matter how the S/V maneuvers there will be no chance of a close quarters situation. In the second situation most likely I would expect the S/V to stay clear and if the S/V expects the larger vessel to maneuver a call on the VHF would be prudent.

As to the third situation, it would depend on the circumstances.

K.C.

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ColReg’s rule, but I’d love to have you folks come up on the radio, or at least have it powered up…

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[QUOTE=Swampfox;82800]How’s this for an answer. Grab a copy of the official Navigation Rules. Read it, learn it, live by it. Take a radar class. Learn how to use a radar plotting sheet. Problem solved.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly my point of view, and the point of view of Faction 1 in my original post. I’ll take that as a vote; thanks. Even better would be if you could help me with some arguments.

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[QUOTE=mtskier;82803]ColReg’s rule, but I’d love to have you folks come up on the radio, or at least have it powered up…[/QUOTE]

That’s interesting! We are not sure whether you want to talk with us or not, or whether it is even a good idea. The MCA has advised all mariners to avoid using the VHF in potential collision situations – http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn167.pdf. The theory is that if we all follow the Colregs no one needs to chatter about anything. I guess many of us have a poor grasp of the Colregs and you often don’t trust us to do what we’re supposed to, so you think it might be better to talk just to be sure you know what we plan to do. OK, I get it.

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I think aside from having a better understanding of the COLREGS and use of their radar, the largest thing recreational boaters need to improve is situational awareness. This is not just taking your eyes off the chart plotter, or off your wife’s ass, and looking around. It needs to include thoughts like “do I really need to be in this deep water channel?” It drives me insane to see a tug pushing a deep draft fuel barge in a channel, and them having to maneuver around sailboats ghosting along, when there is 10+ feet of water outside of the channel.
The second biggest improvement is the ability/willingness to use the their VHF radio. If joe smoe is fishing off castle or deer island in Boston harbor at night, he might know to be aware of an inbound or outbound commercial unit if he hears their security calls. This again really falls under situational awareness.
At the end of the day I really recommend that boaters be proactive in educating themselves. Take a 100 ton captains class! Buy a COLREGS book! Learn how to use that fancy radar and the plotting sheets that go with it! Buy paper charts of the areas you frequent and study them, know where you can be outside of a marked channel. Lastly give us commercial guys some room. I respect that you have just as much right to be out here as me. However at the end of the day if we have a collision, I will be held more responsible for your mistakes than you will. People like myself are out here earning a living and in many cases supporting a family, remember that.

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Best advice: Mtnskier, come up on VHF and COMMUNICATE. If a S/V is non responsive to a call on the radio then Colregs rule, BUT, It is more convenient and usually safer for a S/V to take action to avoid collision. Avoid close quarters situations with commercial vessels. Usually in narrow channels you will most likely be a power driven vessel. Just stay clear of large commercial craft… Common sense.

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[QUOTE=WAFI;82808]That’s interesting! We are not sure whether you want to talk with us or not, or whether it is even a good idea. The MCA has advised all mariners to avoid using the VHF in potential collision situations – http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn167.pdf. The theory is that if we all follow the Colregs no one needs to chatter about anything. I guess many of us have a poor grasp of the Colregs and you often don’t trust us to do what we’re supposed to, so you think it might be better to talk just to be sure you know what we plan to do. OK, I get it.[/QUOTE]

It’s best to avoid rule of the road situations with commercial vessels by just staying clear before a risk of collision exists. If a S/V intends to force a RoR situation on a large commercial vessel it might be prudent to check if the S/V and the commercial vessel are in agreement with what the situation is. It may be the case the the commercial vessel believes the rule of the narrow channel applies or that more then two vessels are involved. Also some professional mariners do believe in the gross tonnage rule. Best to stay clear or to check.

K.C.

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Sailing is a different breed. Not all bad, but definitely different.

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Well this guy is a breath of fresh air nothing at all like the Flag Officer. I may have to change my view of cruiser forum people. Most common complaint I’ve over heard in these situations is “this damn blow boater won’t answer the friggin radio”… WAFI = Organ Donor

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And if your going to use the vhf, make sure your volume is turned up!

Had this happen to me around Miami

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[QUOTE=Traitor Yankee;82811]I think aside from having a better understanding of the COLREGS and use of their radar, the largest thing recreational boaters need to improve is situational awareness. This is not just taking your eyes off the chart plotter, or off your wife’s ass, and looking around. It needs to include thoughts like “do I really need to be in this deep water channel?” It drives me insane to see a tug pushing a deep draft fuel barge in a channel, and them having to maneuver around sailboats ghosting along, when there is 10+ feet of water outside of the channel.
The second biggest improvement is the ability/willingness to use the their VHF radio. If joe smoe is fishing off castle or deer island in Boston harbor at night, he might know to be aware of an inbound or outbound commercial unit if he hears their security calls. This again really falls under situational awareness.
At the end of the day I really recommend that boaters be proactive in educating themselves. Take a 100 ton captains class! Buy a COLREGS book! Learn how to use that fancy radar and the plotting sheets that go with it! Buy paper charts of the areas you frequent and study them, know where you can be outside of a marked channel. Lastly give us commercial guys some room. I respect that you have just as much right to be out here as me. However at the end of the day if we have a collision, I will be held more responsible for your mistakes than you will. People like myself are out here earning a living and in many cases supporting a family, remember that.[/QUOTE]

Thanks – all very good advice I think.

We try to teach beginners to be aware of commercial vessels from practically the time they appear on the horizon – it is amazing to sailors how fast a large commercial vessel can get from the horizon to right here.

We also try to teach them – not sure they always listen – but stay out of channels unless they absolutely have to use them, and don’t enter them before commercial shipping has had a chance to get by. These are all pre-Colregs situations so not exactly the original question.

Interesting – another vote for using the radio. This is a really good education.

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[QUOTE=Fraqrat;82828]Well this guy is a breath of fresh air nothing at all like the Flag Officer. I may have to change my view of cruiser forum people. Most common complaint I’ve over heard in these situations is “this damn blow boater won’t answer the friggin radio”… WAFI = Organ Donor[/QUOTE]

Lol. Well, there are 100,000+ of us – there’s quite a range from total idiots to great adventurers and Arctic explorers and everything in between. A lot of total idiots, but not all of us :slight_smile:

Yet another vote for radio use. This is really opening my eyes.

One problem I have using the radio is I don’t know how to call you – “Big gray RoRo barelling down the Dover TSS in position ___ by ___”? Once I can read the name, it’s too late to discuss anything! I guess that’s a good argument for having AIS.

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[QUOTE=WAFI;82840]Lol.

One problem I have using the radio is I don’t know how to call you – “Big gray RoRo barelling down the Dover TSS in position ___ by ___”? Once I can read the name, it’s too late to discuss anything! I guess that’s a good argument for having AIS.[/QUOTE]

That would work. Use an approximate position. “big gray ro-ro 3 miles west of Bush Point on course xxx, speed xxkts this is sailing vessel Roadkill at 7 miles on your port bow, over” Always use YOUR bearing from THEM.

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Oh boy. This ought to be good!

To take it a bit closer to home, the last time you were in a race, rounding a mark, and the guy next to you started to yell: “Starboard” how did you respond? Did you casually look the other way, and pretend to not hear him? I KNOW how this works. I have seen it. And everyone looks sheepishly away, as if to say, I didn’t see him, so its not my fault. That is the problem yachters must overcome.

You make several false assumptions. Unfortunately these false assumptions are fostered and passed on amongst your fellow yachters. I am a sailor. I see, hear, and deal with this both from a yachters’ standpoint and the commercial mariners standpoint.

You state several times that some feel there should be NO communication between vessels. This is specifically NOT what is in the colregs. The intention of colregs is to use ALL means to determine if risk of collision exists. So the flawed concept of not using ALL Means to avoid collision is not following the regs in the first place.

You mention during crossing situations. This happens during all phases of navigation. This is actually most prevalent during meeting, crossing and overtaking situations.

The hardest things to understand about the Colregs is that there is usually not just one rule that one must know. Depending upon the location and the navigation situation of the vessels involved, a specific vessel actually does NOT have the right of way in all circumstances! But how many of your brethren only read the one paragraph that says: "sailing vessels have the right of way over power driven vessels.’ There are three other rules I can think of offhand, which negate the previous thought of ‘sailboats’ superiority. But the yachters must learn them.

You mention ‘yacht’ radars not having CPA information available. This is false. I have not seen a RADAR made that does not have an EBL function. (Electronic Bearing Line) A little education about the information that is garnered from using an EBL IS exactly how you can tell if there is a -0- CPA or not, or if (the legal description) risk of collision exists. So it would appear that the USE of the equipment is what is contributing to the lack of knowledge. According to the rules, even a stand on vessel once it has been determined that risk of collision exists, they must try to avoid collision also. But this is hard to do when the stand on vessel is not even aware of, and doesn’t know how to properly judge when/if risk of collision exists!

Regarding using the radio: This is a double edged topic. Most all sailboats I have been on, the VHF is remote from the helm station. To use the radio, the operator must leave the helm (and lose what situational awareness they may have had) talk to the other vessel, and then return to the helm, and do what was discussed and agreed upon.

Re reading your post and your responses, makes it appear that there is some ‘race authority’ or yacht organisation which is giving faulty advise about not manning a radio while navigating. This is contrary to what is taught in professional COLREGS rules courses.

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[QUOTE=WAFI;82840]Lol. Well, there are 100,000+ of us – there’s quite a range from total idiots to great adventurers and Arctic explorers and everything in between. A lot of total idiots, but not all of us :slight_smile:

Yet another vote for radio use. This is really opening my eyes.

One problem I have using the radio is I don’t know how to call you – “Big gray RoRo barelling down the Dover TSS in position ___ by ___”? Once I can read the name, it’s too late to discuss anything! I guess that’s a good argument for having AIS.[/QUOTE]

Yes, use the radio. If it accomplishes nothing else it will at very least let me know you are aware of my vessel. As far as how to call us without knowing a name, what you describe is fine. When i attempt to call a pleasure boat that same kind of thing is what i am limited to.

The situational awareness thing that was brought up is a big one, and probably the most important. Just the other day I was upbound on Lake Huron along the established upbound traffic track line. I met a sailboat who was headed directly downbound on this established upbound track. The tracks are clearly marked on the charts. Their is all kinds of sea room there, they have no need at all to be doing that. This guy answered his radio and we never got real close, but a ounce of common sense would tell you not to do what he was doing.

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[QUOTE=WAFI;82840]Lol. Well, there are 100,000+ of us – there’s quite a range from total idiots to great adventurers and Arctic explorers and everything in between. A lot of total idiots, but not all of us :slight_smile:

Yet another vote for radio use. This is really opening my eyes.

One problem I have using the radio is I don’t know how to call you – “Big gray RoRo barelling down the Dover TSS in position ___ by ___”? Once I can read the name, it’s too late to discuss anything! I guess that’s a good argument for having AIS.[/QUOTE]

I prefer to be called by course and speed then position as I usually don’t have the lat and long in my head and can’t get over to the display quick enough but I do know my course and speed.

As far as AIS, I’ve never tried it but at Panbo site there is apost about AIS via smart phone so-called AIS Class E

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I read the advisory from MCA and thoroughly disagree with the sentence that advises against the use of VHF radio.

This topic reminds me of the lessons learned from the Andrea Doria/Stockholm collision which is often referred to as a “radar-assisted collision”. The Andrea Doria/Stockholmn collision was a result of improper use of radar equipment. Operator-error, plain and simple. The advisory from MCA should say the same thing: IMPROPER use of the VHF radio must be avoided.

If you are going to contact another vessel by radio, the first thing to do is “engage brain before putting mouth in gear”. Identify yourself so that another vessel can determine who you are. “I am the white two-masted sailboat at buoy 32 calling the eastbound passenger ferry. I am on your port bow at about 2 miles distance.” You should also assume a commercial vessel is tracking you by radar and/or other means and has your approximate course and speed displayed before them. “I am the sailing vessel on a northerly course at 6 knots on your starboard bow.”

What doesn’t work is “I am calling the ship on my starboard side, do you see me?” Or, “This is the blue sailboat calling the big ship.” Tell ME where to look to see YOU.

Once I know who you are and you know who I am, we can begin making arrangements.

Now, let’s go back to “engage brain before putting mouth in gear”. You assume there is risk of collision. What are you going to do about it? Think ahead. “I will alter my course to starboard and pass astern of you.” Or, “I can alter my course to starboard; can you do the same and we will pass port-to-port?” Or, “What would you like me to do to stay out of your way?”

Keep your message short and to-the-point. A long-winded diatribe uses valuable time and makes for a one-sided communication.

Once you have made arrangements, the worst thing you can do is turn the radio off. Situations can change; stand-by the radio until you are fully past and clear. And even though it may not work this way in real life, we all know maintaining a listening-watch at all times when underway is an obligation.

Knowing and following the COLREGS is fundamental and should always take precedence, but the VHF radio is an affordable, simple tool that can turn a possible disaster into a routine meeting. Use it, but use it wisely.

Harry