[QUOTE=powerabout;83181]I always ask the sailor if he can name the 4 cases where sail gives way to power…then proceed[/QUOTE]
That would be:
[QUOTE=Capt. Nemo;83179]Grease pencil and a straight edge=quick CPA. All you need is two marks on the sreen at a convenient interval (six minutes works) and a line through them extended through your course…assuming everybody keeps doing what they’re doing. Voila! CPA, plus, if you really want to get salty, his course and speed.
And by ALL means, give a quick call on 16. There’s a real person on the bridge of that big boat whose livelyhood and a good nights’ sleep depend on, among other things, not running over a little boat. Be professional on the radio. It’ll do wonders for how other mariners perceive you.
Nemo[/QUOTE]
Earlier in this conversation I would have agreed, even I said this. But after pondering it, I don’t think it is possible for these casual yachters to understand, gain proficiency in and use the principles of RRP, It takes a lot of practice. And honestly it appears to me that most yachters are ‘fair weather’ sailors who only boat for 30 or so days per year, and thus don’t get to retain what little they use while aboard. By fair weather I mean, this needs to be practiced during good vis, in daylight to gain proficiency, so it can be relied upon in the dark inclement times. Who else is going to do this for practice? We do, because we spend half our lives out here. I don’t see an easy way to encourage yachters to come up to par.
Granted, WAFI sounds like an exception, but most.,… I think are just passing by until the next shipyard yacht yard haulout period.
I think AIS would be the most valuable thing a sailor could get if they are cruising any distance offshore. If you arent being picked up on radar the watch officer will still most definatley see you. They may not even ascertain what size vessel you are and assume you are a ship and alter course when 10-15 miles off to avoid a ROC.
[QUOTE=youngpup;83197]I think AIS would be the most valuable thing a sailor could get if they are cruising any distance offshore. If you arent being picked up on radar the watch officer will still most definatley see you. They may not even ascertain what size vessel you are and assume you are a ship and alter course when 10-15 miles off to avoid a ROC.[/QUOTE]
Our AIS puts out all of the above information. Length, breadth, speed, course, type of vessel, whether under power, moored, anchored, etc., number of crew on board, destination, ETA to destination, etc. “Sailboat under sail” is even an option.
[QUOTE=cappy208;83193]Earlier in this conversation I would have agreed, even I said this. But after pondering it, I don’t think it is possible for these casual yachters to understand, gain proficiency in and use the principles of RRP, It takes a lot of practice. And honestly it appears to me that most yachters are ‘fair weather’ sailors who only boat for 30 or so days per year, and thus don’t get to retain what little they use while aboard. By fair weather I mean, this needs to be practiced during good vis, in daylight to gain proficiency, so it can be relied upon in the dark inclement times. Who else is going to do this for practice? We do, because we spend half our lives out here. I don’t see an easy way to encourage yachters to come up to par.
.[/QUOTE]
There will always be a certain percentage of hopeless incompetents in sailboats, but many sailors are really keen to become good mariners. They may only spend 30 or 60 days at sea, but they spend most of their free time thinking, reading, discussing this stuff, even taking radar courses, etc. “Amateur” doesn’t necessarily mean “incompetent”. There are thousands of questions on CF about managing crossings with large vessels; you would be amazed at how intensely interested people are in understanding how to do it properly.
[QUOTE=youngpup;83197]I think AIS would be the most valuable thing a sailor could get if they are cruising any distance offshore. If you arent being picked up on radar the watch officer will still most definatley see you. They may not even ascertain what size vessel you are and assume you are a ship and alter course when 10-15 miles off to avoid a ROC.[/QUOTE]
I have an issue with AIS. Yes, it does provide information to the big ship WO but really, how useful is it?
Again, I am talking about narrow waters conditions. Open seas is a different world.
A big ship WO sees on AIS a sailboat with a 0 CPA 20 NM away. Is the WO going to take evasive maneuver right away? Of course not… 10 NM away? Unlikely… 5 NM? Humm… Why?
Because sailboats route and speed are highly unpredictable. No offense meant.
For sailors, most of the time, final destination is where we started in the morning. Sometimes we plan to go around three buoys, sometimes just around the lighthouse. We do plan routes and speed for the journey but the reality is that we have average routes and average speeds. The wind decides… How many sailors can say they have kept actual route within 5 degrees and actual speed within 1 knot for more than one hour?
Well, for the big ship WO, it makes a huge difference. To RELY on a sailboat passing 1000 yards on port or starboard is perfectly acceptable. AIS and radar alone are just not sufficient to provide that reliable information.
Also remember, you small sailboat, you are unlikely to be the only AIS spot on my navigation screen. There may be many others including other big ships. If I start zigzagging 20 miles away to avoid you just because it says “sailboat” on the screen, I am going to hear a bunch of other big ship WOs on channel 16…
I think AIS is great
it tells the Sailboat to get the F**K out of the way
PS AIS is not a collision avoidance tool its Americas Identification System
and to all yachties it is not required to be overlayed with the radar so dont think we are looking at the box in the corner that just tells us if our mates are in the same port
It may well be overlaid with vessels with flat screen radar as thats easy but for CRT versions its very expensive to connect hence not connected.
PS I am a sailor as well so I know 99% of sailors do not know the col regs judging by the answer to quizzes on board
[QUOTE=valvanuz;83212]I have an issue with AIS. Yes, it does provide information to the big ship WO but really, how useful is it?
Again, I am talking about narrow waters conditions. Open seas is a different world.
A big ship WO sees on AIS a sailboat with a 0 CPA 20 NM away. Is the WO going to take evasive maneuver right away? Of course not… 10 NM away? Unlikely… 5 NM? Humm… Why?
Because sailboats route and speed are highly unpredictable. No offense meant.
For sailors, most of the time, final destination is where we started in the morning. Sometimes we plan to go around three buoys, sometimes just around the lighthouse. We do plan routes and speed for the journey but the reality is that we have average routes and average speeds. The wind decides… How many sailors can say they have kept actual route within 5 degrees and actual speed within 1 knot for more than one hour?
Well, for the big ship WO, it makes a huge difference. To RELY on a sailboat passing 1000 yards on port or starboard is perfectly acceptable. AIS and radar alone are just not sufficient to provide that reliable information.
Also remember, you small sailboat, you are unlikely to be the only AIS spot on my navigation screen. There may be many others including other big ships. If I start zigzagging 20 miles away to avoid you just because it says “sailboat” on the screen, I am going to hear a bunch of other big ship WOs on channel 16…[/QUOTE]
I thought your last post had good info but I don’t agree with this one.
For one, a AIS equipped S/V has a much higher likelihood of showing up on the ship’s radar display. Small vessels often get lost in the sea clutter and also can disappear in rain showers. This is a problem made worse by AIS as watch officers tend to be less vigilant then pre-AIS in keeping the radar properly tuned. This puts non-AIS equipped craft at greater risk.
As to the problem of the inconsistent courses and speeds, the same is true for many of the vessels being tracked at any given time, for example F/Vs. I wouldn’t expect a watch officer to start zig-zagging at any time and certainly not 20 miles off but it would help with the planning knowing that an encounter with a S/V is in the picture, certainly better then being unaware of it’s presence… If the S/V is headed, say generally eastward, the watch officer can plan to pass astern rather then attempt to guess at the S/V speed and pass ahead.
For the S/V advantages of an AIS is that it greatly aids in the early detection of commercial vessels, assists in the determination of the CPA and, as has been pointed out, greatly increase the ease of establishing VHF comms.
K.C.
[QUOTE=WAFI;83202]There will always be a certain percentage of hopeless incompetents in sailboats, but many sailors are really keen to become good mariners. They may only spend 30 or 60 days at sea, but they spend most of their free time thinking, reading, discussing this stuff, even taking radar courses, etc. “Amateur” doesn’t necessarily mean “incompetent”. There are thousands of questions on CF about managing crossings with large vessels; you would be amazed at how intensely interested people are in understanding how to do it properly.[/QUOTE]
I had a look at a couple of threads over at your forum.
Seems like the question is follow the COLREGS and stand on vs use the tonnage rule and just stay out of the way. For one, I wonder, practically speaking, how much difference there is between the two approaches?. On the deck of the S/V, how much time is there between the point when it has been determined that risk of collision exists and the point where it is determined that the M/V is not taking proper action? In some cases, with fast moving ships, this time period is going to be very brief if it occurs at all. In this case there would be no difference between the tonnage rule and the COLREGS.
The same is true with the advice to avoid risk of collision situations. This could be considered to be the tonnage rule as well. Between these two cases how much daylight is there between COLREGS and the tonnage rule?
K.C.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;83231]I had a look at a couple of threads over at your forum.
Seems like the question is follow the COLREGS and stand on vs use the tonnage rule and just stay out of the way. For one, I wonder, practically speaking, how much difference there is between the two approaches?. On the deck of the S/V, how much time is there between the point when it has been determined that risk of collision exists and the point where it is determined that the M/V is not taking proper action? In some cases, with fast moving ships, this time period is going to be very brief if it occurs at all. In this case there would be no difference between the tonnage rule and the COLREGS.
The same is true with the advice to avoid risk of collision situations. This could be considered to be the tonnage rule as well. Between these two cases how much daylight is there between COLREGS and the tonnage rule?
K.C.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I’m coming to the same conclusion, as I mentioned a few posts up. It was quite enlightening for me to understand the gap between our time horizons. It makes me think that by the time we start to wonder whether you are going to alter course, it is far too late already – you would have long since done it. Which means we’re already into the next stage of Colregs protocol and I need to be maneuvering to stay clear anyway.
Which means – yeah, it doesn’t make much difference, really.
[quote=powerabout;83214]i think ais is great
it tells the sailboat to get the f**k out of the way [/quote]
rotflmao. .
[QUOTE=WAFI;83249]Yes, I’m coming to the same conclusion, as I mentioned a few posts up. It was quite enlightening for me to understand the gap between our time horizons. It makes me think that by the time we start to wonder whether you are going to alter course, it is far too late already – you would have long since done it. Which means we’re already into the next stage of Colregs protocol and I need to be maneuvering to stay clear anyway.
Which means – yeah, it doesn’t make much difference, really.[/QUOTE]
That aside, I think it is wise to carry an AIS or a phone with an AIS app. If a S/V gets into a situation where there is doubt about the proper action knowing the name of the other vessel helps to quickly establish VHF comms to resolve the situation. Typically on the commercial side it’s not considered worthwhile to try and call a S/V unless it can be ID’ed by name. The commercial side doesn’t want bs calls but no one likes uncertain situations.
K.C.
To answer back you previous comment, I agree big ships face the same issue with coastal fishing vessels and even yachting motor boats although, for the latest you only worry about what is on your forward starboard side.
I remember discussing this topic with a Tug Master in New York. He commented: yachtsmen worry when they see a single tug pulling a barge, chugging along at 8 kn in the middle of Long Island Sound. How do we feel and what should we do when we are in the midst of one hundred boats randomly sailing with speeds between 0 and 40 kn?
And yes, AIS is a very good tool to have on your yacht. (At least an AIS receiver and, that is cheap). Coupled with electronic charts on Ipad type PCs you get a great navigation and anti-collision tool without having to go down below to figure out what is going on.
It is very hard for a yachtsman to realize that the containership you see on the horizon is going to be just here in twenty minutes zooming by at 20kn. Any dumb ass can figure out a 0 CPA; to figure out when it is going to happen is a very different ball game unless you have radar or AIS. What to do next should be quite straightforward 
A little aside on CPA.
In my navigation class (GPS nor AIS invented yet, no radar allowed) a trainee is in charge of surface monitoring.
Trainee: Sir, we have a 0 CPA with a ship 30° starboard.
WO: keep a good eye on it.
10 minutes later, trainee: Sir, we still have a 0 CPA with that ship 30° starboard.
WO: keep monitoring if anything changes.
10 minutes later, trainee: Sir, we still have a 0 CPA with that ship 30° starboard.
WO starting to be amused: Is that ship getting bigger or smaller?
Trainee:??? It is getting smaller…
[QUOTE=WAFI;82840]Lol. Well, there are 100,000+ of us – there’s quite a range from total idiots to great adventurers and Arctic explorers and everything in between. A lot of total idiots, but not all of us 
Yet another vote for radio use. This is really opening my eyes.
One problem I have using the radio is I don’t know how to call you – “Big gray RoRo barelling down the Dover TSS in position ___ by ___”? Once I can read the name, it’s too late to discuss anything! I guess that’s a good argument for having AIS.[/QUOTE]
It helps on a sailboat to have the external speakers mounted in the cockpit. Most sailboats will have a VHF, yes, but in many cases the head unit is down the companionway by the nav station. I have a radio in my sailboat and when my engine is on, I can’t hear the VHF very well unless the volume is turned up all the way. Pay the $30-50 and get one mounted. It can save a lot of hassle.
I’ve called sailboats in traffic lanes and some answer…some don’t. When calling a vessel in a TSS, always know your location and the commercial ship’s general heading. Familiarize oneself with the types of commercial ships out there! A container ship vs a car carrier. Bulk carrier vs a tanker. I’m not saying go out and by a Jane’s Merchant Ships, but a general knowledge would be beneficial. “Calling the southbound container ship off Pt Wilson”, for example. The pilot/mate on board should know exactly who you are talking to.
One last thing about VHF comms in a TSS or crowded waterway. It helps to monitor the right frequencies. If you are in the Puget Sound, for example, monitor Seattle Traffic or Tofino Traffic. You’ll know who is inbound/outbound and generally where they will be at certain locations. Those ships will be monitoring Traffic as well as 13 and 16. In some TSS, a listening watch is not required on channel 16.
[QUOTE=water;83200]Our AIS puts out all of the above information. Length, breadth, speed, course, type of vessel, whether under power, moored, anchored, etc., number of crew on board, destination, ETA to destination, etc. “Sailboat under sail” is even an option.[/QUOTE]
Sometime if I see a vessel showing up on AIS my radar 20 miles I wont bother checking there length ect. In open water seeing that little triangle with a CPA of less then 2 there is no reason to change a few degrees if it will mean totally avoiding a ROC.
Here is my take on S/V’s that I encounter deep sea and coastwise.
Deep Sea:
It’s always nice to see the sail boat on AIS before radar or visually.
Radar Reflectors - could save your life, in more ways than one. Recently we plucked a guy out of the ocean who was single handing from Hawaii to Oakland. He had a bad infection. He would have died the next day had we not been able to find him. With his reflector he was easy to spot.)
LED Navigation lights - much easier to see from a ways out.
Keep a constant lookout.
As for collision avoidance, I usually wait until ~2-3 miles before I make my move. Same strategy I use for fishing boats as wel. At 2 miles, I still have enough time to miss you, and you don’t have enough time to get in my way again. If you want to call on the radio, great!
Coastwise-
One issue that I have not really seen addressed is that while you (WAFI)and many members of the forum may be very well educated on the COLREGS, little Betty Bareboat and her ilk have no real clue, and tend to act in random and unpredictable ways, If I am steaming and see a sailboat with a zero CPA, I can assume several things,
A. That guy knows the rules and is standing on, so I shall alter my course to pass clear.
B. That guy may know the rules, but may interpret my maneuver incorrectly and do some random shit at the last minute to put himself in danger of collision.
C That idiot has no friggin clue and is just obliviously meandering along and will do the stupidest and most dangerous possible thing once he comes up from grabbing a beer and notices that I am close to him.
Experience has generally led me towards always assuming choice C.
I spent a long time running a research vessel which did manned submersible operations, in certain areas of the world (S. Florida, New England, Caribbean) when I would issue a securite’ call that I was recovering a manned submersible and requested a 2 mile CPA from all vessels it was like ringing a dinner bell and every moron from miles around would get as close as they possibly could for the best view. I have done a sailing circumnavigation and have met many excellent and expert mariners on sailboats, but when operating a ship I have to make assumptions about the lowest common denominator. My biggest piece of advice, get an AIS, and when in congested/restricted areas, just stay the hell out of the way.
Final thought, when I am sailing (a sailboat) I never, EVER cling to “Stand on Vessel” status. I will maneuver to avoid close quarter situations early and obviously irrespective of what the COLREGS state. Small plastic boat vs. large steel ship. I know who wins every time, and there are some real morons on the bridges of large commercial vessels as well, I’m not going to give them the chance to sink me if I can help it. By all means call me on the radio if you are in any doubt about what I am doing or what you are doing, just don’t call “UmmmmYeah… That big ship… ummmm,… do you see me?” “Ummmm, I’m the 42 ft Swan with the puce’ bootstriping and the kevlar sails on the port tack” Another reason to get an AIS, I will always answer to my name.
^ Agreed, the people operating S/V have a wide range of skills/experience.
How can some one operating a S/V that cannot follow “the ordinary practice of seaman” or understand “the special circumstances of the case” or understand “the limitations of the vessels involved” comply with the rules? In many cases they will not be able to. If the operator of the vessel is not capable of doing that they need to stay out of the way of commercial traffic
S/V operators who do understand the situation, need to keep in mind that the operator of the large commercial vessel is unaware of the level of skill and knowledge of the other vessel involved in the encounter.
2 (a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
K.C.
I am in both camps. Sailor and professional mariner.
I just returned from a trans-Atlantic delivery and encountered this scary situation. About 500 miles out from Bishop Rock in a Force 9 gale the seas were in the 20’-25’ range. within 2 minutes of taking the watch I saw the bow of a container ship at less than 5 miles. So what had happened? And what did happen? Well the sea state was such that my radar was not seeing very much and the ship was lost in the clutter. Adjustment later showed that when the clutter was reduced so did the ship. Second the ship was not picking me up on radar, probably for the same reasons. Even with a good radar reflector I was just too small a target to be seen properly. The ship probably had short manning on the bridge. In any case I called on ch 16 and identified the ship and position from radar and myself as “Sailing vessel directly on your bow” I got no answer on vhf but within much less than a minute, it seemed like forever, I saw the ship make a very significant change of course.
So what could I have done better or different? Not much really in the circumstances. Due to wind strength and sea state I could not manouver much and it would not have helped in any case as I was running downwind under very reduced sail. It was daylight so any number of lights would not help. I did what I knew I could do which was call the ship, and thankfully they had a live radio watch, which is not always a given any more. The good part was I am experienced commercially and had a good idea what the WO was dealing with. I had a radio at the helm, though not DSC. I also had my stabilized glasses with me that helped a lot. AIS would have helped but this was not option in this case.
I was lucky, so was the WO. We both came out of it without a scratch.
