Precisely. I think we can all agree that most folks can memorize the answers to multiple choice questions within a reasonable degree of accuracy. However, sitting across from a peer and answering the same questions is another thing entirely. Many countries have such an exam scheme. no one with their wits about them and knows their job should worry about such a scheme. Oral in person tests separates the question memorizers from the people that know their subject. Oral exams are just a check to make sure one is confident and competent. No oral examiner is going to ask anyone to perform any advanced calculus as the examiners themselves forgot that long ago. 
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Agreed and the proof of that is somebody that has no interest or pre knowledge in an industry can study your tests and pass, not understanding any of it.
( explains lots about the modern youth, got the ticket but useless)
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kinda like this genius.
That’s the one. And that’s the type of guy who would play the political system to be on a board approving or stopping people from advancing. What about Master Micheal Davidson of the El Faro, with his background do you think he would have did awesome on an oral exam where one of his former buddy’s, buddy’s was giving the oral exam? 100% yep. How do you think the Captain of the dive boat Conception do in front of a board of dive boat captains that he & his family worked around for the previous 30 years? The thought of a good 'ole boy oral exam system where candidates fail or pass on the whims of a bureaucrat reeks of the corruption of the Lousiana river pilots association where you have to buy & kiss ass your way in to me. No thank you.
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OK but is it possible to think outside the box here. There are thousands of testing systems on record Why are we getting hung up on just two of them? Is possible to have a system that does not include multiple choice or board approval?
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I cannot speak for the state pilots in Louisiana. I can with great conviction say the Federal Pilots are class act, They take the same tests as I did, have vast experience beforehand, and paid a bit less than state pilots as they only handle Jones Act trade. Yes, there are sons of pilots that work that trade, but no two relatives can be in the association at once. Those few that are relatives earn their way (After their fathers step down) and are darn good pilots and mariners. Two former crewmembers are pilots in that group, and no relation to former pilots. Damn good group. Nobody cheated to get where they are at today. That smug little lady in New Orleans testing center with the red lipstick made sure of that. Her name escapes me, but what a prize. All business.
I think the problem the USCG has with testing for competency is the maritime field covers so many sub-industries practically unrelated to one another. You or someone mentioned that stability & weather are two of the most important aspects of the job of Master but I worked on research vessels where stability was hardly discussed & it was the engineers responsibility to keep the ship trim & level. We had no cargo & kept the same drafts for years. Masters who work in fairer climate regions lose their meteorology skills after a couple of years of consistent, good weather. Probably the brown water Mississippi River tug captains greatest concerns are current & river stages. Those 2 things makes the difference between life or death for them while Masters of offshore day cruise casino boats #1 concern is passenger safety & regulations. I’m a QA & like that program. The faster the USCG starts enforcement of that program the better. But for now I think the CG sets the bare minimum standards with sea time requirements, the limited on board assessment program & multiple choice test & then they let the employers/industry decide who’s actually competent or not.
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In most countries oral exam schemes previous or known associates are not allowed to exam an applicant.
The master of the Faro and the Conception passed a multiple questions exam. Would an oral exam by objective examiners made any difference? Doubtful. Golden handcuffs and complacency are, in my experience the greatest cause of maritime or even land based accidents.
Do you know how they do it for different sectors & how many examiners they have per mariner. I think a retired Master of a Ro-Ro ship who had to find a job in retirement wouldn’t be too efficient at questioning a seasoned mate off the upper Mississippi & Ohio rivers trying to upgrade to Master. If a bunch of engineers from OSV’s companies got laid off & went to work for the USCG to give oral exams they could probably be hoodwinked by or unjustly fail a bunch of MSC 2A/E’s trying to get 1A/E because they don’t have much context to pass judgment. Sounds too confusing to me & besides, I don’t know any good Unlimited Masters or Unlimited CE’s who would take a M-F, 8-5 job talking to a bunch a desperate people trying to advance themselves for 50 weeks a year for a $45k salary.
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ALL of the Course SME’s at the NMC hold Unlimited Masters or Ch Engrs Licenses- many with large amounts of sea time.
For the record, the USCG had Essay testing until the early 1970’s- with Examiner/Proctors- some of which would not hesitate to have an individual orally explain their essay answers. Multiple choice questions for Engineer exams started in the late 1960’s- just in Electrical Subjects and Safety Environmental Subjects…
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Goodness there are a lot of false assumptions. In most countries you are either captain or mate just as you or either an engineer or chief. The is no differentiation between OSV or RORO. They don’t have special license classifications, you are either a qualified mariner or not. In general the oral examiners do not depend on the income from their exam duties to survive. If you talked to oral examiners from other countries you would find they work, for the most part, when needed and then at their option I have examined many prospective engineers along the same lines as one would expect during a license exam. My questions were simple. What is the HP or KW of your propulsions plant? What is the voltage of your electrical plant? What are the electrical needs, regarding voltage and amperage of your ship? How many cubic meters can your bilge system handle per minute? What kind of pump is your bilge pump? Really basic stuff. But you’d be surprised how many people cannot answer these questions
For the life of me I do not understand why anyone would object to a more stringent licensing regime for US mariners while defending the Jones Act. I believe if written and oral exams were mandated US mariners can compete but they seem to hide behind the Jones Act and a multiple choice exam. Unless things have changed the USCG multiple choice exam questions and answers are available online or thru the FOIA and various “study guides”. Which gets back to the original subject; “Cheating on the USCG Unlimited Masters Exam” The exam is not that hard. If you need to cheat you don’t deserve a license.
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Congress exempted the question bank from FOIA so the questions aren’t released anymore. The USCG publishes a small sample question bank for studying purposes, though many of the old publicly available questions are still used the more time passes the fewer old questions are still in the test bank.
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So how is the lapware guy getting them? Or is he not and it’s just old questions
Those are very easy questions to answer… And, whether you know it or not- there is no correlation or connection between Mariner Licensing and the Jones Act…
Also, I disagree with your statement about “special license classifications”, since you’re an engineer (evidently)- how many OSV’s have Slow Speed Direct Drive Diesel Propulsion? But yet most Deep Sea Sector utilize this form of propulsion…
The changes brought about by the 2014 changes (as forced by the IMO) were incomplete ones, paired with “new rules” and interpretations that are (in my humble personal opinion) non-sensical at best- promulgated by those with less than desirable amounts sea going experience.
Case in point- the change form 1000 GRT to 200 GRT as a minimum “qualifier” is telling. It is my belief that there’s a VERY big difference say- in an Engine Ratings duties and required knowledge for 200 GRT and under, and above 1000 GRT… In fact- years ago when I applied for Engine Rating Endorsements- there were specific columns on the sea service sheet- and you had to have been on a vessel of 1000 GRT and/or 4000 HP… this sorely needed these days…
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Actually, that was Pub 214, which was on still on some ships early in my career and preferred by some old timers.
It’s not that bad, but it’s a huge step backwards. It would be more like $90K/year (GS-12) and 48 weeks/year. But, these are higher pay grade jobs and there is no way the Coast Guard would get funding for all the positions needed. Even if funding could be obtained, the NMC is unable to fill a handful of positions at that pay level. It’s doubtful they could fill the large number needed.
Things have changed. FOIA was amended to exempt Coast Guard and FAA exam questions. Following this change, the questions were removed from the NMC web page and replaced by sample examinations. You may recall that NMC briefly removed the questions from the web circa 2012, but under a then recent Supreme Court decision, they had to be restored. This led to the FOIA amendment exempting the questions from disclosure. There’s good, but dense background on the pre-amendment situation here.
Old questions, some of which are still in use.
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A few decades ago, there was a nautical store in Fort Lauderdale (Not far from Southport Raw Bar} that had most of the USCG publications. There were two editions in yellow covers that had all of the questions for rules of the road. Over a thousand if I remember correctly. They were among other books that were constant companions in my travel bag. Self studying did not allow for many clothes in my bag, Left my clothes on the rig. I thank all the crew members who helped me up the gangway with all those books. And the quality bag manufacturer that didn’t fall apart from all the shit I put in it.
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If you research the history of the creation of the limited license you’ll find a very close correlation. At least in the OSV business.
Oil was being developed offshore in the USA but there were not enough licensed mariners to fill the jobs available at the wages being offered. Insurers along with the oil companies wanted some documentation of the mariners after a few mishaps. Most deep sea sailor were union. Due to the Jones Act low paid foreign workers could not be brought in. So the oil companies along with the burgeoning OSV operators got in touch with their politicians, who contacted the USCG and presto an entire new class of license was invented. Many of the original recipients were functionally illiterate but it served the industry well and continues to do so though they are much more educated now. They have a captive labor group that is not likely to join a union and they maintain their protected market just as the Jones Act intended.
There is a fascinating piece of work done years ago by the MMS which details the development of the offshore business in the GOM. Lots of oral history from the pioneers of the OSV business, I especially enjoyed the interview with Webb Callais who I had the pleasure of speaking with many years ago. If I can find it again. I’ll send a link.
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how about foreign flag semi subs in the GOM
The rules got so warped the joke was you could become an unlimited master with your longest voyage several hundred yards, never having dropped an anchor or ever come alongside…
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There are many other parts of this history done by MMS. Enjoy