BRIDGE recording of PORTER (DDG78) collision

[QUOTE=Jetryder223;109420]You heard right. But it back in the 1980’s.[/QUOTE]

Any idea of the names of the vessels or any other details?

[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);109404]After reading between the lines he ran the fuel farm in Guam? Then went active duty… No wonder. Well back to the fuel farm I suppose.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t let that Bozo the Clown fill the tank of my truck

Sounds like they were playing around in a TSS. They sustained damage on their starboard side, navrule 15 comes to mind…

Notice the last order from the captain for “flank speed”?

Once I did bridge simulator training with some navy guys and they did a marginal job (at best) but they completely fell apart once the instructor laid in some heavy fog, increased the number of contacts and placed them in a narrow channel. In one situation all they had to do to avoid trouble was to maintain speed and follow the ship in front of them… but they could’t do it.

Why did hey fall apart? Well because their answer to every situation was “flank speed”… it was their “crutch”. Most of the time “flank speed” works for them because, as we all know, the ship in control of any traffic situation is the ship with the most available speed… and those navy ships are fast… the only problem is speed only works if you locate and understand the hazards around you (i.e. good situational awareness). Once you start running out of options - because you loose track of the situation , wait too long to ring the eot, and/or enter a restricted waterway - then flank speed is not your friend.

The problem here (or should I say ONE of the problems here, since there are MANY and this one isn’t close to being the biggest) is that these guys never train in traffic situations with their hands off the throttle.

(PS The biggest problem, of course, is not the throttle but the fact that navy OOD’s and Captain’s have very little bridge time or experience in traffic).
(PPS If you haven’t tried a traffic situation on a navy simulator you should give it a try. Having that much horsepower at you disposal is a lot of fun… and makes most difficult traffic situations easy… you just give her some “throttle” and move out of the way :wink: )

Wait a second. The CO was a KP kid?? He should have known better. Wow.

Why don’t they just come to STBD like a normal person for the first ship making ship #2 a non issue? The whole BRM system used in the military seems to be ineffective in traffic by a huge margin. The person on the radio needs to be the one making the decisions; the same person looking out the window, giving commands and looking at the radar.

I say it’s KPs fault.

[QUOTE=Jolly Tar;109327]http://gcaptain.com/intense-bridge-conversation-porter/

Not much to say. NAV saw it coming and CO didn’t want to hear it. Makes my skin crawl[/QUOTE]

Obviously, there is confusion on who is really in charge either the CO or the OOD.

French grey Navy rules are clear: on the bridge, the OOD is in charge, even if the CO is present. If the CO is on the bridge, he can provide advice and the OOD may request advice but the OOD remains fully in charge.

If a situation becomes difficult, two things may happen:
• The CO can take over navigation at any moment. It is a formal statement: [I]“Le Commandant prend la manoeuvre”[/I] “This is the CO, I take over the nav”. This is written in the Log book. The OOD remains in charge of the watch.
• The OOD may request the CO to take over navigation. This is also a formal statement that must be acknowledged by the CO: [I]“Commandant, je vous demande de prendre la manoeuvre”[/I] “This is the OOD, CO, I ask you to take over the nav” “This is the CO, I take over the nav”. This is written in the Log Book. The OOD remains in charge of the watch.

When situation returns to normal, the nav is given back formally to the OOD.

Not really, basically when he graduated from KP he was a third mate ( or third engineer?). In any case a jr officer from any maritime college knows very little practical info, they all must be trained from the start ( and that’s a good thing). From what is known of his bio he never sailed on his license if he even had one. Hence he never put to use what he had learned in school before becoming a USN officer. So, in the end the USN takes responsibility. Sadly the USN are not mariners, but arm chair sailors and afloat desk jockeys.

Advice my captain told me while I was cadet shipping, “If it’s grey, stay away!”

[QUOTE=Bayrunner;109431]Wait a second. The CO was a KP kid?? He should have known better. Wow.[/QUOTE]

A KP [U]engineer[/U].

[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;109421]Any idea of the names of the vessels or any other details?[/QUOTE]

Here you go. It was 1988.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1988/Aircraft-Carrier-Hits-Civilian-Ship/id-4deb3cfa62b40b63993f585f3a00d09e

[QUOTE=john;109425]Notice the last order from the captain for “flank speed”?

Once I did bridge simulator training with some navy guys and they did a marginal job (at best) but they completely fell apart once the instructor laid in some heavy fog, increased the number of contacts and placed them in a narrow channel. In one situation all they had to do to avoid trouble was to maintain speed and follow the ship in front of them… but they could’t do it.

Why did hey fall apart? Well because their answer to every situation was “flank speed”… it was their “crutch”. Most of the time “flank speed” works for them because, as we all know, the ship in control of any traffic situation is the ship with the most available speed… and those navy ships are fast… the only problem is speed only works if you locate and understand the hazards around you (i.e. good situational awareness). Once you start running out of options - because you loose track of the situation , wait too long to ring the eot, and/or enter a restricted waterway - then flank speed is not your friend.

The problem here (or should I say ONE of the problems here, since there are MANY and this one isn’t close to being the biggest) is that these guys never train in traffic situations with their hands off the throttle.

(PS The biggest problem, of course, is not the throttle but the fact that navy OOD’s and Captain’s have very little bridge time or experience in traffic).
(PPS If you haven’t tried a traffic situation on a navy simulator you should give it a try. Having that much horsepower at you disposal is a lot of fun… and makes most difficult traffic situations easy… you just give her some “throttle” and move out of the way :wink: )[/QUOTE]

Having sailed on both sides, another big problem I saw was the tendency of navy OOD’s to always act as though they are the give way vessel. It’s weird, because the stereotype we frequently have of the navy is that they never answer the radio and they never get out of the way, but most of the OOD’s I served with felt the same way of the big ships they encountered. So rather than letting the rules do their job, they felt they needed to proactively take action in every circumstance.

The thing I kept asking myself when listening to the audio was “why are they turning left?” Without knowing more details of the situation, my first reaction was that if they needed to turn left to avoid the traffic then they were likely the stand-on vessel. I wish the audio was longer so we could have heard more about how the situation developed.

[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);109404]After reading between the lines he ran the fuel farm in Guam?[/QUOTE]

Bet’cha he never got his hands dirty ~

[QUOTE=jdcavo;109447]A KP [U]engineer[/U].[/QUOTE]

Get a rope ~

[QUOTE=Jetryder223;109448]Here you go. It was 1988.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1988/Aircraft-Carrier-Hits-Civilian-Ship/id-4deb3cfa62b40b63993f585f3a00d09e[/QUOTE]

If I remember right, a contributing factor was the COs strong desire to arrive at exactly his previously stated ETA.

[QUOTE=jdcavo;109456]If I remember right, a contributing factor was the COs strong desire to arrive at exactly his previously stated ETA.[/QUOTE]

Well, you don’t want to keep a navy wife waiting now do you.
Who paid the bill for this mess? I got a good guess, we did.

[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;109458]Well, you don’t want to keep a navy wife waiting now do you.
Who paid the bill for this mess? I got a good guess, we did.[/QUOTE]

I deleted the post you were responding to as I was doubting my memory. I shouldn’t have. From the NTSB investigation: “Contributing to the accident was the navigator’s order to reduce the speed from 5 knots to 3 knots in an attempt to reach buoy “3” at a prescribed time”

The NTSB report isn’t available from NTSB on-line, but it’s been copied here: http://www.unm.edu/~nrotc/ns304/lesson14.htm

[QUOTE=valvanuz;109435]Obviously, there is confusion on who is really in charge either the CO or the OOD.

French grey Navy rules are clear: on the bridge, the OOD is in charge, even if the CO is present. If the CO is on the bridge, he can provide advice and the OOD may request advice but the OOD remains fully in charge.

If a situation becomes difficult, two things may happen:
• The CO can take over navigation at any moment. It is a formal statement: [I]“Le Commandant prend la manoeuvre”[/I] “This is the CO, I take over the nav”. This is written in the Log book. The OOD remains in charge of the watch.
• The OOD may request the CO to take over navigation. This is also a formal statement that must be acknowledged by the CO: [I]“Commandant, je vous demande de prendre la manoeuvre”[/I] “This is the OOD, CO, I ask you to take over the nav” “This is the CO, I take over the nav”. This is written in the Log Book. The OOD remains in charge of the watch.

When situation returns to normal, the nav is given back formally to the OOD.[/QUOTE]

In the Navy and Coast Guard is is also very clear. The moment the Captain gives any command on the bridge, the OOD will announce “the Captain has the Conn”. Likewise the conning officer is always logged.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;109368]Why are there like 50 eleven people talking and yelling on the bridge? Why does it take the navy so many people to drive a boat? How come dumb civilians can make this same passing with only one or two people on the bridge? Unless I misunderstood the master wasn’t on the bridge. I’ve heard some good stuff from other forum members lately. Things like “don’t call me to be a witness” and “call me 30 minutes before you do something stupid”. Is there no standing orders in the navy?[/QUOTE]

Sounded to me like the Captain was definitely on the bridge and part of the conversation.

Sounds like you have to rely too much on your inputs from other people. Not enough looking out the window and judging relative motion for yourself, or even looking at the radar. Like jdcavo’s post when they hit the anchored ship, not enough looking out the window. Also seems to me like a green third mate could have saved the day by turning completely around and trying again.