[QUOTE=lm1883;177972]The numbers I quoted are real. Yes I have travelled the world. I interact with foreigners on a daily basis. I live here, you live in Singapore. I think you need to plan a vacation to St. Louis. Do you know anything about the U.S.?
It’s a rhetorical question, as you’ve proved many times you don’t.[/QUOTE]
I did NOT say that that I know EVERYTHING about the USofA and I do accept that you do know something about the outside world.
Even if I don’t live in the US I’m able to learn quite a lot through US and other news sources.
I admit I’m a news “junky”. I even watch Fox News when the real news gets too depressing or repetitive. (Everybody need comical relief from time to time)
Let me just point out that the Founding Fathers lived in a very different time from ours. They rejected things European based on their perception then, not the Europe of today. It is time to look at today’s reality and not be enslaved by the past.
Yes, USA has 370 Mill. inhabitants, Singapore and Norway both has something over 5 Mill. so you cannot directly compare, but the EU has something like 550 Mill. people and is comparable in economical terms and when it comes to social services.
Yet is is possible to learn something from other countries, not to isolate yourself from the rest of the world, with a notion that; “they should learn and copy us”.
China, with 1.3 Bill. people, is looking at the Singapore model, which is not similar to the European OR the US models. Why?? Because Singapore has succeeded in bypassing both the European countries and US in terms of GDP(PP) starting out as a colonial backwater only 50 years ago, with no natural resources and very limited land area. The only resource is good governance, well educed English speaking people, low crime and corruption and an open economy.
Having many races living together in harmony is also an asset, but it is not something that is guaranteed.
If everybody was free to say anything they want about our leaders and about other religions, without the knowledge that they may be held accountable for any lies and untruths, this country would still be wallowing in poverty, or being absorbed back into the “democratic heaven” of Malaysia: https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/328770
What I’m saying is that not every country would be better off copying the dysfunctional system that is developing in the USA. When politics become a “contact sport” played by “professional politicians”, with only one aim; to get re-elected no matter what, it is NOT in the best interest of the people.
I get the impression that many people on this forum is in agreement with that view.
[QUOTE=lm1883;177973]See, that’s the problem. Their socialized system should work promptly for all and you shouldn’t need supplemental insurance or have pay cash to guarantee a high level of service. That’s why your paying a VAT, high income and fuel taxes. The crown requires that many departments (called corporations) run on a balanced budget or no more than a 3% deficit. Ottawa actually had surplus this last year and that didn’t happen by spending more money system wide.[/QUOTE]
No. That’s how things should work. Everyone should be guaranteed access to essential healthcare, and they are. Canada, and every other industrialized economy in the world, provides “free” national healthcare.
The time of delivery is prioritized according to urgency. The less urgent it is, the longer it takes. Anyone must also have the right to buy extra insurance or pay cash to obtain prompter treatment. Canada has doctors and clinics that do not accept national health insurance, only cash or private insurance. If you want faster service in Canada, you can have it, as long as you are willing to pay for it. That’s how it should be.
The US has had lots of “free” national healthcare for most people for a very long time. Government employees get pre-tax, low cost health insurance — everyone from Congress to Veterens to school teachers. Same for retirees. The government also provides “free” healthcare for the elderly and “poor people”. The government requires hospital emergency rooms to treat everyone, regardless of ability to pay. Anyone who does not have insurance, cannot pay, or will not pay, gets “free” urgent care.
When you add up all the government employees, retirees, veterans, elderly, people on welfare, and people who cannot or will not pay, that is most of the US population getting “free” socialized healthcare.
So who is left in America that does not get “free” healthcare anyway, only you.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;178015] The US has had lots of “free” national healthcare for most people for a very long time. Government employees get pre-tax, low cost health insurance — everyone from Congress to Veterens to school teachers. Same for retirees. The government also provides “free” healthcare for the elderly and “poor people”. The government requires hospital emergency rooms to treat everyone, regardless of ability to pay. Anyone who does not have insurance, cannot pay, or will not pay, gets “free” urgent care.
When you add up all the government employees, retirees, veterans, elderly, people on welfare, and people who cannot or will not pay, that is most of the US population getting “free” socialized healthcare.
So who is left in America that does not get “free” healthcare anyway, only you.[/QUOTE]
Could THAT be why you pay more for health care than any other developed country??
If you had a socialize health care system everybody would be covered and there wouldn’t be any freeloaders that doesn’t pay in, yet get the same service.
[QUOTE=lm1883;178018]I agree completely but the system is simply unsustainable, and that’s all there is too it. That’s why plans in the ACA have $5000 deductibles, and regular premiums are increasing over 20% annually. When you marry these issues with pensions, etc… You have a recipe for trouble. Look to our friends in Puerto Rico for a great example.[/QUOTE]
It does not matter how the system is set up, or who is supposedly paying for it, or how they are supposedly paying for it. 370 million people are going to have some quantity of illness and injury for which they are going to receive treatment. That is a given. Somehow society is going to pay for that treatment. They only things we can try to do are: to improve the efficiency of the system to reduce costs, and to allocate who pays what through which mechanisms.
So far, the US healthcare system is by far the highest cost, and is ranked 34th in quality. There are very long waits to see specialists and have elective surgery. We are clearly doing something very wrong. This has to change.
Every industrialized country, and many third world countries, provide much higher quality healthcare, at much much lower cost. Most of it is “free” national healthcare.
We are going to pay for healthcare for 370 million people one way or the other. The only people who can pay, are the one’s that have money. Does that sound like anyone you know?
[QUOTE=tugsailor;178019]So far, the US healthcare system is by far the highest cost, and is ranked 34th in quality. There are very long waits to see specialists and have elective surgery.[/QUOTE]
That’s the opposite of the truth. People come from socialized health care systems to have surgery here because the wait is so much shorter. Also, what Canada considers “elective” is sometimes a life threatening issue and people die before their surgery, or they come to the US and get it done quickly.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;178025]That’s the opposite of the truth. People come from socialized health care systems to have surgery here because the wait is so much shorter. Also, what Canada considers “elective” is sometimes a life threatening issue and people die before their surgery, or they come to the US and get it done quickly.[/QUOTE]
On this you are misinformed. Wait until you get old enough to to start needing some medical treatment; you’ll get a real education. France is ranked Number 1 in the world for quality of healthcare. Singapore is ranked Number 1 in Asia and 5th in the World.
It is certainly true that the very best US hospitals, such as Mayo Clinic, provide some of the very best specialty treatment anywhere in the world. But how many of us will ever go to a hospital like Mayo Clinic? How many insurance networks have Mayo Clinic as a preferred provider with only 10% copay? Most of us would discover that our insurance would only pay 50% for out of network treatment at a top hospital like Mayo Clinic.
There are lots of FDA approved treatments that US Medicare and private insurance consider “experimental” and refuse to pay for. It often takes months to get an appointment with a US specialist. The US insurance companies are very good at claiming that various treatments from various “preferred providers” are only covered 50%, instead of 90%.
How does someone from Canada, or from the third world, obtain treatment in the US? Well, they either pay cash, or use private insurance. I think most Canadians that want prompt treatment for most things, can just pay far less for it and get it just as quickly at a private clinic in Canada. Sure, some may come to the US, or go to Europe, for specialized treatment.
If Jeaux Bawss’s quack employment doctor ever discovers that you have an umbilical hernia, and are thus in his opinion unfit for work. There is no reason to wait weeks or months for surgery in the US. Go straight to Shouldice Hospital in Toronto. They are the World’s best hernia specialists. Even if you walk in unannounced, they will accept most American insurance and will fix your hernia better than anyone else can with in a few days.
Ever had a prescription filled in Canada? You do need a Canadian doctor, but they are readily available at walk in clinics.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;178033]On this you are misinformed. Wait until you get old enough to to start needing some medical treatment; you’ll get a real education.[/QUOTE]
It’s possible I’m misinformed. I’m basing the statement on multiple news segments interviewing the Canadians in question. In one case I remember specifically the Canadian system declared this old lady’s surgery elective and she was going to have to wait something like 7 or 9 months. She came to the US and the doctors here said she’d be dead long before then and they operated like the next week.
I know the system better than most people as my wife is very sick. She has seen almost every type of specialist there is and sees regularly more than 5 different doctors. While certain specialists in certain areas have a long wait to get an appointment that’s the exception, not the rule. Also, if you legitimately urgently need to see a specialist it’s almost always possible to get in to see one in a reasonable time. I’ve also very rarely had issues with insurance covering stuff and our insurance has been accepted at world class facilities.
[QUOTE=ombugge;178016]Could THAT be why you pay more for health care than any other developed country??
If you had a socialize health care system everybody would be covered and there wouldn’t be any freeloaders that doesn’t pay in, yet get the same service.[/QUOTE]
We also have a problem with the legal system in the USA. Lawyers readily advertise looking for clients so they can sue for malpractice, or anything else. They then get 30-40% or more of the settlement, and make a very good living. That drives up the cost of malpractice insurance, and doctors recommend every possible test to cover their ass in the event of a law suit.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;178025]That’s the opposite of the truth. People come from socialized health care systems to have surgery here because the wait is so much shorter. Also, what Canada considers “elective” is sometimes a life threatening issue and people die before their surgery, or they come to the US and get it done quickly.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. My wife has had 7 back surgeries and 123 days in the Methodist Hospital system in Houston over a 5 year period. I met many from countries with socialized medicine, most from Canada getting treatment to beat long delays.
I had a neighbor, married to a nurse who just happened to be from Australia. He had a heart condition. He told me as they were about to retire that they were moving to Australia for free care. He died while waiting on a list to be treated.
I lost a filling from some Colombian dental work on the way to the North Sea. A month later, I was waiting to be treated in a clinic in Aberdeen, Scotland. The agent got me in for fast treatment. (5 hour wait) I only got in that fast because there was no medical agreement between the US and the UK so the company was paying cash. The dentist wanted to pull the tooth instead of a filling. I paid an extra $20 for the filling.
One more thing, when I first started sailing, I also experienced the FREE Marine Hospital system. More stories…
[QUOTE=lm1883;178043]…
Would you be comfortable with the USCG having access to your medical records? Purchasing insurance in many state exchanges require you to waive your doctor patient confidentiality rights, are you OK with that? …[/QUOTE]
If you think your medical records are private, or will stay that way when buying ANY insurance, I want some of that medical marijuana you’re smoking. But that’s only part of the story.
All sort of health care cost numbers and ideas get floated around. But it boils down to one thing. [I]If someone is sick, or becomes sick, must they go without healthcare because they cannot afford it? [/I] Yes - or no? [I]Is a rich person more worthy of health care than a poor person, or a poor persons’ kid?[/I] Why is that?
Don’t give me a lot of BS about healthcare costs.
My wife and I spent over $ 150k CASH on uninsured medical care in 3 years. By hard work and luck alone I had that much saved up - basically $1000 every single week, spent for three years, after tax, of course. Apart from what the frigging insurance that cost us another $16k a already covered. So screw it – we drive 10 year old American cars instead of Mercedes. Think about that - medical costs that are more than a $65k a year job.
So how many people do you know that can take that financial hit? Is the gal working at 7-11 for $8.00 an hour unworthy, and I am worthy because I had some cake saved up ?
The cost of medical care is outrageous in the US, taking nearly 1 dollar of every 5 spent in the entire US economy. What we got for $460 in Europe costs over $9500 in the US. Same exact thing. That, in a word, is mental, and its the primary reason why premiums and deductibles are going thru the roof. Doctors, Hospitals and Labs CHARGE that much.
So it is getting to be a problem that cannot be swept under the rug, and it is not an easy solution. But from an insurance perspective, the largest possible group, paid by the most powerful insurer, will have the benefit of being able to better control the beast that is eating America’s middle class. The lower middle class and poor, basically have no access to healthcare except that afforded by Obamacare and Medicare. They could not even come close to buying a medically underwritten commercial policy. No friggin way - and that was what was addressed by Obamacare.
So get over it. Unless you think that kid’s life at 7-11 is somehow worth less than yours.
Good luck with that at the Pearly Gates my Christian brother.
In the US employers usually pay for most of their employees health insurance. It’s a huge cost of having employees, and puts US employers at a competitive disadvantage compared to foreign companies that have no healthcare expenses. Put an other why, foreign companies get a huge government subsidy in the form of national healthcare.
US employers total cost of compensation includes health insurance. If they did not have to pay health insurance, they could pay higher salaries. Like it or not, we are all paying a high cost for health care whether we know it, like it, or not.
Then we have this explosion of ridiculous and discriminatory physical exams by employers, and potential employers. The employers are trying to hold down their insurance costs. We lose all medical privacy.
We may be told that we are medically unqualified to work for Jeaux Boss, not because we are, but because he has an irrational fear that we might get sick and contribute to healthcare cost increases.
Like it or not, or realize it or not, we are already paying, in one form or another, a very high cost for everyone’s healthcare. There are no easy answers.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;178048]In the US employers usually pay for most of their employees health insurance. It’s a huge cost of having employees, and puts US employers at a competitive disadvantage compared to foreign companies that have no healthcare expenses. Put an other why, foreign companies get a huge government subsidy in the form of national healthcare.
US employers total cost of compensation includes health insurance. If they did not have to pay health insurance, they could pay higher salaries. Like it or not, we are all paying a high cost for health care whether we know it, like it, or not.
Then we have this explosion of ridiculous and discriminatory physical exams by employers, and potential employers. The employers are trying to hold down their insurance costs. We lose all medical privacy.
We may be told that we are medically unqualified to work for Jeaux Boss, not because we are, but because he has an irrational fear that we might get sick and contribute to healthcare cost increases.
Like it or not, or realize it or not, we are already paying, in one form or another, a very high cost for everyone’s healthcare. There are no easy answers.[/QUOTE]
Just think about it. Employer provided health care started during WW2 to balance out a competitive wage package. Enter the malpractice barristers…
[QUOTE=lm1883;178045]If you had a procedure that, after which, resulted in your being unable to work, would you sue? Should you have that right? Who should determine if you do or don’t? Should you be restricted access to the justice system because it drives up medical costs? Just questions, that’s all.[/QUOTE]
Certainly. But there would be fewer marginal lawsuits if lawyers could only bill out on an hourly rate, rather than on a contingency basis. Or a reduced contingency fee. Lawyers working on an unrestricted contingency have an incentive or a much larger payout for themselves, not the client.
Here’s some background about limiting contingency fees:
[QUOTE=injunear;178046]You are correct. My wife has had 7 back surgeries and 123 days in the Methodist Hospital system in Houston over a 5 year period. I met many from countries with socialized medicine, most from Canada getting treatment to beat long delays.
I had a neighbor, married to a nurse who just happened to be from Australia. He had a heart condition. He told me as they were about to retire that they were moving to Australia for free care. He died while waiting on a list to be treated.
I lost a filling from some Colombian dental work on the way to the North Sea. A month later, I was waiting to be treated in a clinic in Aberdeen, Scotland. The agent got me in for fast treatment. (5 hour wait) I only got in that fast because there was no medical agreement between the US and the UK so the company was paying cash. The dentist wanted to pull the tooth instead of a filling. I paid an extra $20 for the filling.
One more thing, when I first started sailing, I also experienced the FREE Marine Hospital system. More stories…[/QUOTE]
I remember the “free” Marine Hospitals for merchant mariners that Reagan closed. They were awful.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;178051]I remember the “free” Marine Hospitals for merchant mariners that Reagan closed. They were awful.[/QUOTE]
They were rolled into the Public Health Hospital. It went from bad to worse. We had “equally poor” medical coverage. Single payer…
Well, I know who I’m voting for and it’s neither the Bitch nor the Blowhard. I think threads like this should be locked before they get out of hand.
[QUOTE=+A465B;178047]If you think your medical records are private, or will stay that way when buying ANY insurance, I want some of that medical marijuana you’re smoking. But that’s only part of the story.
All sort of health care cost numbers and ideas get floated around. But it boils down to one thing. [I]If someone is sick, or becomes sick, must they go without healthcare because they cannot afford it? [/I] Yes - or no? [I]Is a rich person more worthy of health care than a poor person, or a poor persons’ kid?[/I] Why is that?
Don’t give me a lot of BS about healthcare costs.
My wife and I spent over $ 150k CASH on uninsured medical care in 3 years. By hard work and luck alone I had that much saved up - basically $1000 every single week, spent for three years, after tax, of course. Apart from what the frigging insurance that cost us another $16k a already covered. So screw it – we drive 10 year old American cars instead of Mercedes. Think about that - medical costs that are more than a $65k a year job.
So how many people do you know that can take that financial hit? Is the gal working at 7-11 for $8.00 an hour unworthy, and I am worthy because I had some cake saved up ?
The cost of medical care is outrageous in the US, taking nearly 1 dollar of every 5 spent in the entire US economy. What we got for $460 in Europe costs over $9500 in the US. Same exact thing. That, in a word, is mental, and its the primary reason why premiums and deductibles are going thru the roof. Doctors, Hospitals and Labs CHARGE that much.
So it is getting to be a problem that cannot be swept under the rug, and it is not an easy solution. But from an insurance perspective, the largest possible group, paid by the most powerful insurer, will have the benefit of being able to better control the beast that is eating America’s middle class. The lower middle class and poor, basically have no access to healthcare except that afforded by Obamacare and Medicare. They could not even come close to buying a medically underwritten commercial policy. No friggin way - and that was what was addressed by Obamacare.
So get over it. Unless you think that kid’s life at 7-11 is somehow worth less than yours.
Good luck with that at the Pearly Gates my Christian brother.[/QUOTE]
Here is someone who has lived in the US and overseas, and has consumed a lot of medical services in both places.
LISTEN to him. He knows what he is talking about.
Anyone who has had medical care outside the US knows, that it is always much much cheaper, and usually better.
Anyone who has bought an international insurance policy that excludes coverage for treatment in the US knows that it is much much cheaper.
We Americans don’t like to admit that we are not Number 1 in everything, but when it comes to quality of medical care we are Number 34. That is a sad reality.
Sure, I want small government, low taxes, lots of freedom from government interference, and I would like to eliminate virtually all taxpayer funded welfare programs, but I see no viable alternative to a European style national healthcare system. A single payer system, but with the freedom to buy private insurance or use cash to get more prompt premium medical services in the US or wherever else I choose.
Privacy and cost are the major reasons that I choose to pay cash for medical treatment outside the US. I do not trust insurance companies, employers, potential employers, or the US government with my medical information.
Maybe it’s because i’m a European, but I can’t even begin to understand the logic behind this post.
“A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.” - Mahatma Ghandi
[QUOTE=lm1883;178074]The point I’m trying to make is that these ideas are noble and good, but impractical. In helping one segment of the public you invariably hurt another, in this case we are helping a small segment of the public without health coverage and this would come at the expense of working families and low wage earners no matter how you cut it. …[/QUOTE]
I believe that the “small” segment of the public you refer to was at one point close to 42 million people. Hmmm.
Then of course, we might consider those that have tax payer funded health coverage (Congress anyone?), but that list includes Medicare, Medicaid, Military and government employees at all levels. So we are talking about 108 million people that already have “single payer” government paid insurance of some type. Not counting federal employees.
Yes - in Europe income taxes are killer high (think 35% [U]after[/U] deductions) and that VAT at over 18% sucks. Period, no way around it. But - ALL the people somehow benefit. Lots of ways this is the case, and lots of people one might adjudge unworthy, by virtue of their own inaction, are indeed on the dole.
So yes - there are lots of issues out there, some inconsistent with the way Americans view themselves or want to set priorities.
Medical care costs in US are sky high out of control. If one takes the time to understand that medical care EATS about 17% of US GDP — the scale of the problem is evident. ALL federal spending for everything is only about 21-23% of GDP, and a lot of that is recycled into roadworks, infrastructure, defense, parks and indeed social support.
So medical costs are a serious big problem. Maybe not for you today, but yes, for all of us at some point in time. 25% of senior citizens bankrupted by medical costs? What a tragedy for good upstanding people. What a national disgrace. Premiums don’t go up because there is Obamacare. Premiums go up - even with an actuarially sound population group enrolled - because medical costs go up. Just the facts. Our insurance in the USA would not even be available to us except for Obamacare, since on a commercial, medically underwritten basis, no one would want the risk. Maybe a past cancer? A little diabetes? You’re 50 years old with a touch of high blood pressure? Sorry, move along there matey, we’ll not have you in our group… why not pay $4,000 a night for a hospital room on your own tab. Then you’ll feel the part about harming a segment of the population.
Thimk about it.