Assessments before 2017 and OSV licensing

I heard a lot of rumors lately:

  1. Upgrading a license with OSV seatime after 2017 will limit a mariner to only OSV upgrades… I would rather not limit myself to the oil field.

  2. If running in capacity of Chief Mate on an OSV over 1,600 / 3,000 itc, a mariner can bypass everything and test for master unlimited with 360 days of seatime and assessments. I highly doubt this is the case and even if so, I imagine its only for OSV’s. [I]Answered below and it is yes[/I]

My questions:

What are some important steps to take for license endorsements / upgrades before 2017?

Does it make sense to complete the master / chief mate assessments before 2017 even if I am years away from testing for Chief Mate? I currently hold the following: [I]Answered below[/I]

Master 1,600 oceans (Tested 2009)
Master 10,000 OSV (Endorsed March 2015)
Never had a mates license or taken mates exam
Started working OSV’s larger than 1,600grt June 2014

Some issues were discussed here: http://gcaptain.com/forum/professional-mariner-forum/14571-chief-mate-master-assesments-3.html

Here is the NMC checklist: http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/checklists/pdfs/mcp_fm_nmc5_60_web.pdf?list2=%2Fnmc%2Fchecklists%2Fpdfs%2Fmcp_fm_nmc5_60_web.pdf&B1=GO!

Not sure which assessments to take:
Old assessments PL 04-02: https://www.uscg.mil/nmc/regulations/policy/04-02.pdf
New Assessments NVIC 10-14: https://www.uscg.mil/nmc/regulations/NVIC/NVIC_2014/nvic_10-14_master_and_chief_mate_3000_gt_or_more-encl-2.pdf

Any information or links is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Deviated

Answered by Z-Drive via this very informative link: http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/faq/pdfs/STCW_complete_faq.pdf

36.(ADDED 05/27/15) Do assessments expire? Is there a time limit from when the assessments sign off begin to when they have to be complete or apply to take the upgrade exam?
There is no time limit or expiration on shipboard assessments. However, if assessments have changed, the applicant would be required to meet the new assessments unless otherwise grandfathered. The Coast Guard will accept assessments from the outdated policy up to 6 months following their revision.

23.(ADDED 05/27/15) Can someone who is starting their assessments now use Policy Letter 04-02 as long as the assessments are completed by December 31, 2016?
Yes. Enclosure (4) of NVIC 10-14 describes how a combination of assessments from that NVIC and the former policy letter may be used until December 31, 2016. Similar provisions are also contained in NVICs for other credentials. The Coast Guard will continue to accept assessments from the outdated policy completed before December 31, 2016 until June 30, 2017.

STCW Frequently Asked Questions: OSV Endorsements

  1. For Officer endorsements for Offshore Supply Vessels (OSVs). The text of 46 CFR 11.493 master (OSV) says that at least one-half of the required experience must be served as chief mate. The FR defines chief mate as the deck officer next in rank to the master and upon whom the command of the vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master. On nearly all OSVs there is no requirement for an officer to hold a national endorsement as chief mate on the Certificate of Inspection due to the two-watch system in effect, yet the person serving as mate meets the definition of chief mate stated above. Yet in multiple locations in the preamble the text says, “Where the mariner holds a management-level credential, and fills the position as mate, and the position meets the definition of chief mate found in 10.107, then that service will be credited as chief mate.” The preamble view would make achievement of master (OSV) not possible by a person holding and serving as mate (OSV). Please confirm that a mate (OSV) serving on a vessel where the only required deck officers are a master and a mate will be given chief mate service credit despite text in the preamble that attempts to override the chief mate definition in the FR text?
    For Officer endorsements for Offshore Supply Vessels (OSVs). “Chief Mate” is defined in 46 CFR 10.107 as “the deck officer next in rank to the master and upon whom the command of the vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master.” In the event that a vessel’s Certificate of Inspection does not require that a licensed chief mate be assigned, service credit will be granted to the officer onboard who serves the chief mate’s function. In regard to the STCW endorsement, the mariner must also meet the requirements for master as identified in the regulations (46 CFR 11.305 or 11.311 as applicable).

  2. I currently hold a Master OSV 6,000ITC endorsement,have been working under authority of that license as chief mate on an OSV of over 4,000 GT for well over 360 days, and have completed all of the master’s assessments. It appears that, under this final rule, I may be able to test directly for a master unlimited endorsement and bypass the chief mate endorsement. I want to be sure that that is the case so I can make application immediately.
    Yes, you may use documented service as chief mate towards the master unlimited endorsement. You may receive a tonnage limitation based upon the service that you submit. (In this case, the mariner would not receive a limitation since all service is over 3,000 GT.)

Additional info:
6,000 ton Masters can sign off the assessments: "From NVIC 10-14: “the Coast Guard will accept assessments signed by mariners who hold an appropriate national endorsement and have at least 1 year of experience as Master or Chief Mate on seagoing vessels of at least 1,600 GRT and/or 3,000 GT…”

In reference to 2. It is absolutely true running chief mate on a OSV over 3000 with 360 days you can test and go straight to master unlimited. I’m not sure about the assessments after 2017 I think it’s fine to sign them off before 2017 and upgrade later call uscg. After 2017 the person signing off will have to have a designated assessor course. Since you don’t have an unlimited license but time on vessels over 3000 I know you can upgrade to 3rd mate but I think you need to test and for oceans license you need c-nav

[QUOTE=Tkoval;184136]In reference to 2. It is absolutely true running chief mate on a OSV over 3000 with 360 days you can test and go straight to master unlimited.[/QUOTE]

Wow that’s great news. I heard that from several people, but never spoke to anyone that has done it. Is it Master AGT OSV or the standard Master AGT?

I already received a letter to test for 3rd mate unlimited, but didn’t test within the year. I’m preparing to get re-evaluated, so I’ll apply for Master unlimited and see what happens. I can always request a 3rd mate if the Master unlimited falls through. Either way, it sounds like we should get working on those assessments.

Thanks again Tkoval

The uscg isn’t going to give you master unlimited at best you can test for 3rd mate. You can probably get unlimited OSV too. Since your seatime started before March 2014 you can be on the old chief mate scheme but you’ve gotta have 3rd/2nd mate first then another year and the chief mate classes

[QUOTE=Tkoval;184139]The uscg isn’t going to give you master unlimited at best you can test for 3rd mate. You can probably get unlimited OSV too. Since your seatime started before March 2014 you can be on the old chief mate scheme but you’ve gotta have 3rd/2nd mate first then another year and the chief mate classes[/QUOTE]

I figured that was too good to be true.

So I guess it is best to complete the assessments then apply for master unlimited OSV and third mate unlimited.

After testing for 3rd Mate, I’m [B]curious if my OSV sea time after 2017 will count towards 2nd mate or will I be stuck on OSV’s?[/B]

Either way, I’m definitely getting evaluated for third mate before the new year. I am also [B]curious if the assessments will count when it is time to upgrade to Chief Mate?[/B]

Mr. Cavo explained in another thread that any assessment with “Note 1” in the column does not need to be completed if the mariner has a “STCW endorsement as master or chief mate of 500GT or more and less than 3,000GT.” This cuts out a lot of the assessments.

[QUOTE=Tkoval;184139]The uscg isn’t going to give you master unlimited at best you can test for 3rd mate. You can probably get unlimited OSV too. Since your seatime started before March 2014 you can be on the old chief mate scheme but you’ve gotta have 3rd/2nd mate first then another year and the chief mate classes[/QUOTE]

That’s not true. Master Unlimited now only needs 360 days as Chief Mate with no requirement to actually have a Chief Mate license at the time.

Edit: there is also no requirement to be on a vessel that requires a “Chief Mate” on the COI. Technically there never was and now they’re actually doing it as per the CFR.

[QUOTE=Deviated;184132]Upgrading a license with OSV seatime after 2017 will limit a mariner to only OSV upgrades.[/QUOTE]

That’s bullshit. The truth is in the CFRs, give them a read sometime.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;184143]That’s not true. Master Unlimited now only needs 360 days as Chief Mate with no requirement to actually have a Chief Mate license at the time.[/QUOTE]

I have yet to meet someone who has actually upgraded from Master 1,600 / 6,000 OSV to Master Unlimited without going through the normal sequence of upgrades. [B]Your saying this can definitely be done and the master unlimited is valid beyond OSV’s?[/B]

If so, it sounds like the old policy letter PL 04-02: https://www.uscg.mil/nmc/regulations/policy/04-02.pdfare the best assessments to use if my seatime started before March 24, 2014? As read in a previous thread, there are just some issues getting some of the stability assessments signed off specific to single screw vessels and USCG approved stability software.

Great news about OSV seatime not going to waste after 2014. Appreciate the info.

I think there are very few, if any OSV’s that list a Chief Mate on their COI manning. If it’s not on the manning the position does not exist in the eyes of the USCG.

I’ve been writing my name in the log as “1st officer” since I started standing the 0000-1200 watch on my own. Also have the crew coordinator write “chief mate” on my sea service letters even though it doesn’t specifically say a CM is required on the COI.

[QUOTE=CapChitown;184152]I think there are very few, if any OSV’s that list a Chief Mate on their COI manning. If it’s not on the manning the position does not exist in the eyes of the USCG.[/QUOTE]

I disagree,

For Officer endorsements for Offshore Supply Vessels (OSVs). “Chief Mate” is defined in 46
CFR 10.107 as “the deck officer next in rank to the master and upon whom the command of the
vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master.” [B]In the event that a vessel’s Certificate
of Inspection does not require that a licensed chief mate be assigned, service credit will be
granted to the officer onboard who serves the chief mate’s function.[/B] In regard to the STCW
endorsement, the mariner must also meet the requirements for master as identified in the
regulations (46 CFR 11.305 or 11.311 as applicable).

http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/faq/pdfs/STCW_complete_faq.pdf

I wish that fella luck but IMO you may be comparing apples and oranges here. The section regarding officer requirements you mentioned specifically relates to OSV officers seeking OSV endorsements. In this case the question is regarding non-OSV endorsements. In relation to some of the other replies I am certain that just writing myself in as chief mate or first officer is not going to survive the scrutiny of an experienced evaluator. Anchorman could really shed some light on this as many many years ago he may have had to jump through some flaming hoops regarding “chief mate” time on a OSV. He is an unlim master now so obviosly he is aware that there is a workable path that plus he is just darn knowledgeable on this stuff.

[QUOTE=CapChitown;184159]I wish that fella luck but IMO you may be comparing apples and oranges here. The section regarding officer requirements you mentioned specifically relates to OSV officers seeking OSV endorsements. In this case the question is regarding non-OSV endorsements. In relation to some of the other replies I am certain that just writing myself in as chief mate or first officer is not going to survive the scrutiny of an experienced evaluator. Anchorman could really shed some light on this as many many years ago he may have had to jump through some flaming hoops regarding “chief mate” time on a OSV. He is an unlim master now so obviosly he is aware that there is a workable path that plus he is just darn knowledgeable on this stuff.[/QUOTE]

The CFR referenced which defines chief mate, doesn’t specify if its a OSV or not. The evaluator can think whatever they want but the CFR’s and policy seem pretty clear. On a tug with only one mate, that mate is technically the “chief mate” as they’re the second in command. There’s no reference to tonnage or vessel type in the CFR’s regarding chief mate.

Chief mate means the deck officer next in seniority to the master and upon whom the command of the vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master.

I looked closer at that STCW FAQ FAQ. I agree with you. Thanks for the guidance Zdrive.

See below the following FAQ item.
I currently hold a Master OSV 6,000 ITC endorsement, have been working under
authority of that license as chief mate on an OSV of over 4,000 GT for well over 360
days, and have completed all of the master’s assessments. It appears that, under
this final rule, I may be able to test directly for a master unlimited endorsement and
bypass the chief mate endorsement. I want to be sure that that is the case so I can
make application immediately.
Yes, you may use documented service as chief mate towards the master unlimited
endorsement. You may receive a tonnage limitation based upon the service that you submit.
(In this case, the mariner would not receive a limitation since all service is over 3,000 GT.)

Do you have a unlimited 2nd mate license? You can’t just go from a master1600/6000 to unlimited master

No I do not have any mate license. I’m operating on a Master 10,000 Itc OSV. The 1,600ton isn’t big enough. That seems to be the loophole.

Unless things have changed, you have to sail a year as CM on a vessel that specifies CM on the COI. Several mates I sailed with on the ATBs had to take other jobs in the industry to upgrade to master. The ATBs were only required to have 2 mates with no specificity.

I believe they have clarified policy, when was that? Some of these changes, If I understand correctly, are to be more consistent with STCW.

I have the same license 1600/6000 master but also 2nd mate. Your going to need a unlimited license to upgrade to unlimited master. The going from 2nd mate to U/M using the OSV loophole is legit but you can’t go from 1600 master to unlimited master your going to have to have a unlimited mate first

[QUOTE=z-drive;184162]The CFR referenced which defines chief mate, doesn’t specify if its a OSV or not. The evaluator can think whatever they want but the CFR’s and policy seem pretty clear. On a tug with only one mate, that mate is technically the “chief mate” as they’re the second in command. There’s no reference to tonnage or vessel type in the CFR’s regarding chief mate.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Kind of like how a sole unlicensed engineer can be called the chief engineer.

Yeah, I may be reading it wrong but, I’m reading not holding a position as a chief mate but actually holding the chief mate license. Why would the second mate or chief mate license not have a crossover from the limited license? The third mate does.