So it’s totally cool to get that chief mate sea time here
Or legit non observer chief mate here
And ultimately end up being capable and qualified CM/Master here
But never under any circumstance can that legit watch standing time be obtained here
because it is an illegitimate vessel being run with a an illegitimate license endorsement
[QUOTE=Steamer;193999]Of course it is Frag, we already know that the CG hands out unlimited master’s tickets to mud boat drivers and maybe even fisheries observers so that proves the MMC isn’t worth much more than a TWIC. The only thing that speaks to experience and qualifications is a resume with discharges and references from real people.[/QUOTE]
You already know you have an opinion, but I doubt this translate into facts regarding an actual example of a handout. Seatime [I]experience & qualifications[/I] are synonymous with the USCG licensing process to a certain degree. How that translates across sectors is another thing altogether, and simply does not work regardless of your experience or depth of resume. The USCG is not in the business of drafting resumes; that is up to the individuals, and stepping down as required, into a junior position, when going to another sector. More than anything, disposition of a person determines success, not a license, and that’s not on any test. The MMC is only worth as much as the individual holding the document.
When this subject comes up, disdain is driven by the [I]old timers[/I] - the same group people that never had to comply with STCW, and was grandfathered. Compared to today, that would certainly be a handout.
Fraq, lets turn that around, do you personally want that fisheries observer turned master as captain there with you? Or the stereotypical NE academy grad for that matter?
It’s different mindsets between brown and blue water wheelhouses, and the person that can swap back and forth is rare (and probably multiple personality). Don’t even get me started about the insanity of A/ITB’s though. But no, a 10,000ITC OSV license should not directly transfer to Master AGT as some people have managed to pull off over the years.
[QUOTE=anchorman;194003] When this subject comes up, disdain is driven by the [I]old timers[/I] - the same group people that never had to comply with STCW, and was grandfathered. Compared to today, that would certainly be a handout.[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure that you are saying anything I didn’t except for the quote above. Regarding that, I am an “old timer” but I can’t recall ever sailing or sailing with anyone who didn’t have all the STCW certs required and I don’t recall being grandfathered for anything within the last 20 years or so. There were on special free passes given to any one group, we all went through the same process.
Are you trying to defend giving a free pass for mudboat drivers to get an unlimited master without ever spending a day sailing as chief mate on a real ship? That is definitely a certification without qualification.
[QUOTE=Flyer69;194001]Is it okay with you if I use mudboat chief mate time to get an unlimited masters ticket if I promise to only drive yachts?[/QUOTE]
Even the Britsih MCA licensing scheme (scam) that issues paper to yachtie crew limits that mudboat mate to a master’s ticket only valid on yachts less than 3000 tons ITC. The ticket they get is useless for anything else. It is not a real license either, it is exactly the same as the great big mudboat ticket, only good for one use in one sector. It was a giveaway to the wealthy yacht owners who wanted to keep using their fishing boat captains even though they could never qualify for a real license.
So is this a real ship
Or maybe this is a real ship
And of course this would be a real ship right
Oh man lots of ex oilfield New England academy guys working here now so it’s definitely a real ship
What I’m sick of is hearing that it’s a mudboat and not a ship. This is bullshit because we follow the same CG, ABS, SMS, SOLAS, etc. as any other “real ship”. I’ve sailed both worlds and our chief mate does the same shit the chief mate on a “real ship” does.
We can all agree it’s the resume. Just as our CM would be lost as CM on a tanker the opposite is true. We’ve all seen the ham fisted attempts of the unlimited CM/Master try and run as CM down here. We can all agree taking a 2nd mate spot for awhile is the prudent way to change sectors and gain the skills you need. You can miss me with that other shit tho. A 300’ or more OSV is just as much a ship as a 300’ research vessel, ferry or navy ship. These are all places where a 3rd mate can gain credible sea time to upgrade to unlimited CM/Master. That same 3rd mate is not supposed be able to gain it on a similar size OSV because bayou bubbas are stupid. This is what I take away from these posts and it’s a slap in the face to everyone who works down here.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;194028]What I’m sick of is hearing that it’s a mudboat and not a ship. This is bullshit because we follow the same CG, ABS, SMS, SOLAS, etc. as any other “real ship”. I’ve sailed both worlds and our chief mate does the same shit the chief mate on a “real ship” does. [/QUOTE]
I’ve stayed out of this thread and have enjoyed just being a spectator but can sit on the sidelines no longer
the difference between a 300+’ OSV and a 300+’ RV is not the vessel itself but how it is manned and operated. OSVs are not operated as a vessel inspected under subchapter U is (or D, I, or H for that matter). They have a unique and special manning structure to appease the owners which make them operated much more as a boat than a ship…AND YOU KNOW IT!
the same goes for all fisheries vessels unless they are over 5000grt…they too are operated differently. should a master of fishing industry vessels get a UL master’s license if his vessel is over 3000ITC tons? who here says yes? the same goes for OSVs…specialized operating structures should mean a specialized and restricted license regardless of the tonnage limitations.
Not anymore you been gone a long time and you used fishing time to upgrade your unlimited license.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;194030]Not anymore you been gone a long time and you used fishing time to upgrade your unlimited license.[/QUOTE]
but I started with an unlimited tonnage license and to this day a mate coming from a school can go to a fisheries vessel and do the same. The difference was that my final jump to master required 6mo as a chief mate on an inspected vessel over 1600grt. I had ONE FULL YEAR of that required seatime (thanks to Desert Shield/Storm). DAMNED GOOD TIMES BACK THEN!
now if someone with a UL chief mate’s license is working on a greater than 1600grt OSV as a chief mate then THEY should be allowed to use that time to obtain UL master but someone sailing as a chief mate on a large OSV with a large OSV endorsed master’s license should not get that same opportunity UNTIL they get a UL chief mate’s license first.
should the structure be changed to allow an OSV mate or master to cross over to higher than just a UL 3rd mate? my answer is YES! They should be allowed to cross over to 3rd mate UL if holding a 3000grt mate, a 2nd mate UL if holding a 3000grt master and to chief mate UL if holding a 6000/10000grt large OSV master BUT with one year of seatime at grade while holding their license and to take all the exams and courses required for the UL license. NO AUTOMATIC…HERE, WE’LL JUST GIVE IT TO YOU! NO FREE LUNCH FOR ANYBODY!
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Ok now you’re talking. The issue seems to be an OSV isn’t a real ship then.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;194032]Ok now you’re talking. The issue seems to be an OSV isn’t a real ship then.[/QUOTE]
the vessels are ships but the owners operate them like boats and that is all that GoM only mariners know. You have worked outside the GoM so you know there is a very big difference between the two worlds
when the GoM owners cease referring to chief mate’s as 2nd captains then the two worlds might begin to align.
HOS ceased calling Chief Mates 2nd Captains in Jan 2015. The feedback within the fleet was generally positive. Of course they are probably the only US GOM company to do that fleetwide and then the industry tanked unfortunately but I believe they have kept that structure, even with 28/14.
[QUOTE=Steamer;194013]I’m not sure that you are saying anything I didn’t except for the quote above. Regarding that, I am an “old timer” but I can’t recall ever sailing or sailing with anyone who didn’t have all the STCW certs required and I don’t recall being grandfathered for anything within the last 20 years or so. There were on special free passes given to any one group, we all went through the same process.
Are you trying to defend giving a free pass for mudboat drivers to get an unlimited master without ever spending a day sailing as chief mate on a real ship? That is definitely a certification without qualification.[/QUOTE]
I am not defending a free pass, because it does not exist. The perception of real ship is yours alone, maybe based of that fact that a “mud boat” in your eyes is a 1973 Bo-truc. I’m not sure. I took that career path, and made it to Master. It was no give away, I can tell you. It will take a hawespiper or an academy grad at least a decade to get those qualification start to finish, not couting the years sitting on the Master license until the opportunity of a position arises.
[QUOTE=Steamer;193968]It the the way those requirements came to exist that is a scam … it is another GoM way to allow mudboat operators to get cheaper labor. [/QUOTE]
I do not believe OMSA wanted the large OSV system to get cheaper mariners but to be able to get “their” mariners into those vessels rather than to be forced to hold their noses and hire mariners with UL licenses which invariably would come from outside the GoM. Had the GC held the line to ship level manning structures for large OSVs, the owners would have been forced to hire more mariners per vessel who let’s frankly just say would be foreigners in the eyes of Joe Boss. Hiring deepsea people from outside the GoM would invariably weaken Joe’s hand. He needs his captive southern mariners who are born and bred to eat a shit sandwich to maintain his level of control over those who he deepdown in his soul believes are nothing more than “boat trash”. Joe doesn’t want his mariners to be the best and the brightest he can find but rather wants them to be the most thankful and grovelling for the corn Joe throws to them. We already know that Joe was more than ready to throw very large fistfuls of corn to the peons so long as the serfs were compliant and silent…then suddenly no more tasty corn but what could the peasants do? NOTHING BUT SWALLOW YET ANOTHER STINKY TURD SERVED BETWEEN TWO BREAD SLICES!
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[QUOTE=c.captain;194029]I’ve stayed out of this thread and have enjoyed just being a spectator but can sit on the sidelines no longer
the difference between a 300+’ OSV and a 300+’ RV is not the vessel itself but how it is manned and operated. OSVs are not operated as a vessel inspected under subchapter U is (or D, I, or H for that matter). They have a unique and special manning structure to appease the owners which make them operated much more as a boat than a ship…AND YOU KNOW IT![/QUOTE]
Strictly speaking, this is not always the case. Many OSV’s are now multi-certificated, (I,Freight, etc. as well as L). Regardless of what Sub-Chapter they operate under, on a voyage of greater than 600 miles (berth to berth) in the case of Subchapter L, the COI raises the number of crew, and regulations call for a 3 watch system. This is nothing new.
The discrepancy and confusion that exists may ensue from the fact that when manning is increased on these vessels, the COI often states something to the effect of, “1 Master and 3 Licensed Mates” not, “1 Master and 1 Chief Mate, 1 2nd Mate, 1 3rd Mate, etc.”
In these and any instance, the NMC is evaluating mariners according to the CFR’s, nothing more nothing less. JDCAVO has already made this and the following abundantly clear:
“Chief Mate” is defined in 46CFR 10.107 as “the deck officer next in rank to the master and upon whom the command of the vessel will fall in the event of incapacity of the master.” In the event that a vessel’s Certificate of Inspection does not require that a licensed chief mate be assigned, service credit will be granted to the officer onboard who serves the chief mate’s function."
If you don’t like it write your Congressman, and leave the NMC out of it. Nothing has changed with regards to qualifications for Master AGT, all courses, assessments, exams, qualifying time, and tonnage requirements remain the same, for everyone.
So I don’t know as to what “short cut” is being spoken of, but if people are submitting fraudulent sea-time, ie for a capacity in which they did not serve…well that’s something else entirely.
The presumption that each and every Unlimited Master should be naturally imbued with the knowledge, and ability to command “ANY” vessel afloat.
ummm…I personally don’t think that’s realistic. I doubt any of us, with the possible exception of “Richard8000milesaway” meet that particular standard.
God damn it Charlie ! Stop making fun of my boat! And yes there are a lot of northeast guys on here… I will say this boat is definitely fun but you need a “type-rating” endorsement to be an officer on here.
Why? They would both have to do the same classes and assessments and take the same exams. Just one does it all before they get the sea time and one does it all after.
Did you have to do the STCW assessments and classes to get those certs or did they just give them to you?
Everyone that was actively sailing when sure was adopted in the US was grandfathered with the exception of having to take maybe fire fighting or some such class.
I’ve sailed as Chief Mate on both an OSV and a container ship and the two jobs are nothing alike other than the navigation watch. I was more prepared to do the Master’s job on the container ship (paperwork) than be the Chief Mate, though I was able to learn it fairly quickly.
Where you at I thought you quit the life?
