Just a little history…
WWII ABANDON SHIP EVACUATION & SURVIVAL RESTRICTED TRAINING FILM 21964
Haha! blou, trau, and Mae West. Watch out for sharks, 'coudas, man-o-war (only hurts for a moment), and enemies who throw away books.
A statement is made in the movie that 80% of mariners on ships that were sunk went back to sea again. That’s impressive for a couple reasons but I recall reading somewere that the survival rates early in the war were very low, films like this and other various effors made during the war greatly increased the survival rate. Anyone seen anything about this?
When I was around 17/18 years old I was taught to splice wire by an old fisherman, ( cost me 2 bottles of beer!).
He told tales of sailing in the Arctic convoys, he was torpedoed and pretty much gave up hope but was picked up by a company ship before succumbing to the cold waters. He was signed on to the rescuing ship but found he’d been docked his pay for the time his first ship was abandoned until the time he signed onto the new one!
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[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;189256]A statement is made in the movie that 80% of mariners on ships that were sunk went back to sea again. That’s impressive for a couple reasons but I recall reading somewere that the survival rates early in the war were very low, films like this and other various effors made during the war greatly increased the survival rate. Anyone seen anything about this?[/QUOTE]
That 80% number is mostly bunk according to Wikipedia
WWII US Navy survivorship after loss of surface ships from hostility.
(Not including accidents, storms, typhoons, disappearances, submarines, and Pearl Harbour)
Dead/Crew compliment (survived)
80% or better survival rate:
*USS Hornet: 140/2919 (95%) scuttled
*USS Princeton: 108/1569 (93%)
*USS Wasp: 193/2167 (91%)
*USS Ommaney Bay: 95/910 (90%) scuttled
*USS Mississinewa: 63/499 (87%)
*USS Strong: 46/329 (86%)
*USS Gambier Bay: 130/860 (85%)
*USS St. Lo: 143/899 (84%)
*USS Lansdale: 49/283 (82%)
*USS Helena: 168/888 (81%)
Less than 80% survival rate
*USS Indianapolis: 880/1196 (26%)
USS Juneau: 687/697 (1%)
USS Liscome Bay: 644/916 (30%)
USS LST531: 636/926 (31%)
USS Quincy: 370/866 (57%)
USS Vincennes: 332/866 (62%)
USS Bismarck Sea: 318/923 (66%)
USS Hoel: 253/339 (25%)
USS Jarvis: 233/233 (0%)
USS Astoria: 219/899 (76%)
USS Maddox: 210/284 (26%
USS Cooper: 191/387 (51%)
USS Johnston: 186/327 (43%)
USS Meredith: 180/261 (31%)
USS Sims: 176/192 (8%)
USS De Haven: 167/329 (49%)
USS Barton: 164/276 (41%)
USS Halligan: 162/300 (46%)
USS Drexler: 158/357 (56%)
USS Morrison: 152/273 (44%)
USS Twiggs: 152/340 (55%)
USS Monssen: 130/ 276 (53%)
USS Luce: 126/312 (60%)
USS Preston: 116/158 (27%)
USS Pillsbury: 116/116 (0%)
USS McKean: 64/100 (36%) 52 Marines also died
USS Ruben James: 115/158 (27%)
USS Underhill: 112/234 (52%)
USS Brownson: 108/336 (68%)
USS Reid: 103/158 (35%)
USS Rich: 91/ 213 (57%)
USS Samuel B. Roberts: 90 /210 (57%)
USS Peary: 88/101 (13%)
USS Bush: 87/314 (72%) ['87 also was the year GHW Bush declared his candidacy]
USS Duncan: 81/276 (71%)
USS Manert L. Aberle: 73/336 (78%)
USS Gwinn: 61/276 (78%)
USS Emmons: 60/208 (71%)
USS Neches: 57/144 (60%)
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189262]That 80% number is mostly bunk according to [URL=“https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_maritime_disasters_in_World_War_II”]Wikipedia[/URL
[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about the same thing KC is? Not percentage that survive but of those that do that choose to go back on a ship and sail again. And I’m assuming more related to merchant ships than navy where you might not have a choice about going back. I think the point was it was impressive that that high a percentage would return to work at sea after becoming members of the tin fish club.
[QUOTE=KPChief;189264]Are you talking about the same thing KC is? Not percentage that survive but of those that do that choose to go back on a ship and sail again. And I’m assuming more related to merchant ships than navy where you might not have a choice about going back. I think the point was it was impressive that that high a percentage would return to work at sea after becoming members of the tin fish club.[/QUOTE]
No. The film is for navy guys. The numbers that go back to sea after abandoning ship are naturally smaller than the number of guys that survived. I don’t know what those numbers are, but whatever they are they’re over-estimated by the numbers I quoted. That film is super entertaining, it contains some really good tips, but it’s also a propaganda puff.
That war was fuckin shocking when it came to loss of life. We have still not come to terms with it. The Indianapolis. The Wilhelm Gustlof. The Armenia. The Junyo Maru. The Laconia. There’s no way they could tell those guys the truth and expect them to do their jobs. Even today, there are parts of that war that we don’t think about truthfully.
Edit: also I think it contains some bad tips. I’m not a shark expert, but I don’t think splashy-splashy is a good deterrent.
The number is around 2:40 (more or less) and it’s 85%. I got the impression they were talking about merchant ships as well because they are shown during the narration but I don’t think they said explicity. Didn’t see what year the film was made, it looked like Atlantic convoys, could be the number is correct but based on cherry-picked data (adjusting the dates for example)?
Whatever the statistics are, the merchant mariners who crossed the Atlantic in support of WWII knew about the wolf pack and we owe them our utmost respect for their courage. They sure as hell weren’t doing it for the money.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;189269]The number is around 2:40 (more or less) and it’s 85%. I got the impression they were talking about merchant ships as well because they are shown during the narration but I don’t think they said explicity. Didn’t see what year the film was made, it looked like Atlantic convoys, could be the number is correct but based on cherry-picked data (adjusting the dates for example)?[/QUOTE]
It still doesn’t wash, boss. There wasn’t even one American merchant ship (that I know of) lost to hostile action with a good survival rate. These are the ones that I know about.
1941.12.17 Corregidor: 925/1200 (33%)
1942.09.13 SS Mary Luckenbach: 41/41 crew , 24/24 navy guards (0%)
1943.01.09 SS Louise Lykes: 83/83 (0%)
1943.02.03 SS Dorchester: 672/902 (25%) (including PilotWolf’s friend?)
If you go back to looking at the US Navy, then it is possible to cherry pick the data by date. If you pick the Battle of Leyte Gulf you’re going to get some really cheerful numbers. But don’t look too close or you might realize that the Battle of Leyte Gulf happened at the same time and in the same place as the Battle Off Samar, which doesn’t have good numbers. If you were on a USN ship sunk in Leyte Gulf on October 24 or 25 1944 and less than 84% of your crewmates lived, it was the Battle Off Samar. If you were doing the same thing in the same place at the same time, but more than 84% of you lived, you fought the Battle of Leyte Gulf. There are no other cherry picked dates that fit the criteria for high survivor rate.
1942.01.20 USS Neches: 57/144 (60%)
1942.02.01 USS De Haven: 167/329 (49%)
1942.02.19 USS Peary: 88/101 (13%)
1942.03.02 USS Pillsbury: 116/116 (0%)
1942.05.07 USS Sims: 176/192 (8%)
1942.08.09 USS Astoria: 219/899 (76%)
1942.08.09 USS Vincennes: 332/866 (62%)
1942.08.09 USS Quincy: 370/866 (57%)
1942.09.09 USS Jarvis: 233/233 (0%)
1942.09.15 USS [B]Wasp[/B]: 193/2167 (91%)*
1942.10.12 USS Duncan: 81/276 (71%)
1942.10.15 USS Meredith: 180/261 (31%)
1942.10.27 USS [B]Hornet[/B]: 140/2919 (95%)* scuttled
1942.11.13 USS Monssen: 130/ 276 (53%)
1942.11.13 USS Barton: 164/276 (41%)
1942.11.13 USS Juneau: 687/697 (1%)
1942.11.14 USS Preston: 116/158 (27%)
1942.12.26 USS Brownson: 108/336 (68%)
1943.07.05 USS [B]Strong[/B]: 46/329 (86%)* Solomon Islands*
1943.07.06 USS [B]Helena[/B]: 168/888 (81%)* Solomon Islands
1943.07.10 USS Maddox: 210/284 (26%)
1943.07.13 USS Gwinn: 61/276 (78%)
1943.11.17 USS McKean: 64/100 (36%) 52 Marines also died
1943.11.24 USS Liscome Bay: 644/916 (30%)
1944.04.28 USS LST531: 636/926 (31%)
1944.05.20 USS [B]Lansdale[/B]: 49/283 (82%)
1944.06.08 USS Rich: 91/ 213 (57%)
1944.10.24 USS [B]Princeton[/B]: 108/1569 (93%)* Leyte Gulf
1944.10.25 USS [B]St. Lo:[/B] 143/899 (84%)* Leyte Gulf
1944.10.25 USS [B]Gambier Bay[/B]: 130/860 (85%)* Leyte Gulf
1944.10.25 USS Johnston: 186/327 (43%) Leyte Gulf "Samar"
1944.10.25 USS Samuel B. Roberts: 90 /210 (57%) Leyte Gulf "Samar"
1944.10.25 USS Hoel: 253/339 (25%) Leyte Gulf "Samar"
1944.11.20 USS [B]Mississinewa[/B]: 63/499 (87%)*
1944.12.03 USS Cooper: 191/387 (51%)
1944.12.11 USS Reid: 103/158 (35%)
1945.01.04 USS [B]Ommaney Bay[/B]: 95/910 (90%)* scuttled
1945.02.21 USS Bismarck Sea: 318/923 (66%)
1945.03.26 USS Halligan: 162/300 (46%)
1945.04.06 USS Emmons: 60/208 (71%)
1945.04.06 USS Bush: 87/314 (72%)
1945.04.12 USS Manert L. Aberle: 73/336 (78%)
1945.05.04 USS Luce: 126/312 (60%)
1945.05.04 USS Morrison: 152/273 (44%)
1945.05.28 USS Drexler: 158/357 (56%)
1945.06.16 USS Twiggs: 152/340 (55%)
1945.07.24 USS Underhill: 112/234 (52%)
1945.07.30 USS Indianapolis: 880/1196 (26%)
Are the numbers the percent of crew that survived the battle or the percent of crew that successfully abandoned ship and survived? The film is about how to successfully abandon ship, not how to survive the battle. Perhaps they don’t count the crew who couldn’t abandon ship because they had been killed.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;189282]Are the numbers the percent of crew that survived the battle or the percent of crew that successfully abandoned ship and survived? The film is about how to successfully abandon ship, not how to survive the battle. Perhaps they don’t count the crew who couldn’t abandon ship because they had been killed.[/QUOTE]
The numbers are those killed / total crew (percentage of crew that were rescued). Some of the numbers are a little bit better if you count guys who abandoned ship and died waiting for rescue. The battle of Guadal Canal and the Indianapolis both had a lot of “survivors” who died while waiting to be rescued.
Edit: we don’t know how many we’re unable to abandoned ship because they were already dead. I guess maybe they didn’t call the muster list before ditching.
Well, either way I’m not going to try and chase down the statistics, if it’s propaganda it’s a bit crude, seems better not to mention a number at all.
I’ve read that early in the Atlantic war many more mariners perished when their ships were sunk then later because of measures taken. I was wondeing if anyone had any info on that.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;189300]Well, either way I’m not going to try and chase down the statistics, if it’s propaganda it’s a bit crude, seems better not to mention a number at all.
I’ve read that early in the Atlantic war many more mariners perished when their ships were sunk then later because of measures taken. I was wondeing if anyone had any info on that.[/QUOTE]
That’s absolutely correct. German Navy Commander Herbert Werner wrote about this in his memoirs documenting his experiences as a U-Boat commander starting in 1941 and ending with his capture in 1945. In his book, Iron Coffins, he describes in detail about how easy it was for the wolf packs to sink allied ships. Things changed as the allies developed counter measures but not before the U-Boats sank 495 vessels in a 6-month period. It’s a fascinating story told by a true warrior all the more chilling to read as he describes the carnage caused by his torpedoes destroying US ships and killing US sailors. He describes surfacing close to the US East Coast at night and easily picking out ships as they stood out against the bright lights onshore. Ironically, after the war, he moved to Florida and became a US citizen.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;189300]I’ve read that early in the Atlantic war many more mariners perished when their ships were sunk then later because of measures taken. I was wondeing if anyone had any info on that.[/QUOTE]
The Atlantic numbers are interesting, because there were as many American merchant ships lost as there were American Navy (more if you don’t count the Ruben James, which was sunk before the US entered the war), and nearly as many American merchant mariners died as did USN sailors (more if you don’t count Ruben James). Just goes to show what Lee Shore was saying about civilian heros. And it does look as if the numbers were improving over time (if you don’t count Ruben James). Also included, for interest, the two USN ships lost in the Med to hostile action.
Atlantic
1941.10.31 USS Ruben James: 115/158 (27%)
1942.09.13 SS Mary Luckenbach: 41/41 crew , 24/24 USN (0%)
1943.01.09 SS Louise Lykes: 83/83 (0%)
1943.02.03 SS Dorchester: 672/902 (25%)
1944.04.28 USS LST531: 636/926 (31%)
1944.06.08 USS Rich: 91/ 213 (57%)
Mediterranean
1943.07.10 USS Maddox: 210/284 (26%)
1944.05.20 USS [B]Lansdale[/B]: 49/283 (82%)*
I found some more data. It’s not as detailed as the data that I already showed, but there’s tons more of it. It includes American and American protectorate merchant ships damaged and lost in accidents and storms as well as ships which did not sink, but were damaged by hostiles, and it isn’t separated by theatre.
I pulled out a few numbers:
1942 79% live
1943 81% live
1944 90% live
1945 92% live
WWII and the US merchant marine is a subject very near and dear to me. Regarding statistics concerning the USMM vs. USN or other sea services during the war, I can’t think of one which is very comprehensive but there is this listing of USMM ships lost or damaged during the War
According to the War Shipping Administration, the U.S. Merchant Marine suffered the highest rate of casualties of any service in World War II. Officially, a total of 1,554 ships were sunk due to war conditions, including 733 ships of over 1,000 gross tons. Hundreds of other ships were damaged by torpedoes, shelling, bombs, kamikazes, mines, etc. Foreign flag ships, especially those with Naval Armed Guard on board as well as ships belonging to U.S. territories such as the Philippines, are included in this list.
The following lists are continually under construction, because no official complete list is available. Our present total is 1,768 ships sunk, damaged, captured or detained.
The listings include:
Location of incident:
Alaska 48 ships Approach Med (Atlantic Ocean near Gibraltar) 29 ships Caribbean 180 ships Eastcoast (Atlantic coast of U.S.) 175 ships Gulf of Mexico 46 ships Indian-Red Sea (Indian Ocean - Red Sea) 49 ships Med-Black Sea (Mediterranean and Black Sea) 251 ships Murmansk Run 85 ships Normandy 69 ships NE Atlantic (Northeast Atlantic includes ports in Great Britain, Belgium, etc.) 155 ships N Atlantic (North Atlantic) 168 ships Okinawa 30 ships Pacific includes Hong Kong and Shanghai 130 ships Philippines 128 ships S Atlantic (South Atlantic) 69 ships Westcoast (Pacific coast of U.S.) 27 ships Region unknown 92 ships
of course, not all are related to enemy action and most of the 1554 ships sunk or otherwise lost in the list are under 1000grt but of the 733 ships over 1000grt lost I would think that more then 50% were lost to combat which is over 360ships total. I believe something like 200 of those were Liberty class with more than even being on their first and only voyage.
regarding where the greatest percentage of a particular ship’s crew perished, not just region but also the time of year plus nature of the cargo would play a big role in who made it and who didn’t. Tankers carrying a full load of aviation gas or any ship carrying ammo would mean a high number lost if hit by the enemy.
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Researchers to Visit ‘Battle of the Atlantic’ Wreckagehttp://www.marinelink.com/news/researchers-atlantic414237.aspx
[QUOTE=Lee Shore;189398]Researchers to Visit ‘Battle of the Atlantic’ Wreckagehttp://www.marinelink.com/news/researchers-atlantic414237.aspx[/QUOTE]
Cool! Bluefields goes on the list with all-hands saved.
I am reading Forgotten Heroes: the Historic Story of the United States Merchant Marine (mostly WWII) by Brian Herbert (I know! THAT Brian Herbert). Found a passage that I thought would be particularly interesting to Ombugge. It’s a quote from the logbook of Captain Elmer J. Stull of the SS Collingsworth, of Americal Mail Lines. I don’t know the date of the entry, but it’s during that war. He says:
Ship anchored off Singapore during bombing raid. Low clouds–and bombs dropped blindly… Raids increasing. Jap (sic) aim excellent. One big tanker goes up in smoke and flame. Much damage in city–twenty-six raids, most of them bombing, in five days. … AA guns barking. Shrapnel falling. Ship shivering as with bad malaria… Ship ahead got two bad hits… Six bombs landed from one hundred feet to five hundred feet away. Pilot arrives–shaky from having seen two pilots’ launches near his get blasted with direct hits and all crews killed. Impossible sail without tugs. All tugs fighting fires.