I was trying to figure out merchant sailor survivor rates during WWII after the sinking of their ships from hostil action for the other thread. Turns out, the data are very poor. I’m up to my hips in library books, and becoming frustrated by reading things like ‘somewhere between 70 to 1050 died from the mustard gas at Bari harbour.’
I get it. War makers don’t want us to know the cost of war. But I think it’s worth tracking down as much as we know and collecting it all together. It’s unfair that the crews who did most of the dieing were the ones who got labeled as cowards and draft-dodgers, and it’s unjust that we don’t even really know who they were and why they died. There is so much information and it is so scattered and fragmented, that it would take me years and years to pull it all together.
I am, therefore, proposing a project. I want to build a database that is wider than my original question, one that can keep in information about all the known merchant mariner losses in that war. We should build this database together. If you find or hear about the name of a merchant ship which suffered losses during WWII make an entry in this thread. Try to find out the date of the action, the location, the name of the ship, its flag, the number of people on board (crew, guards, passengers), how many survived, the cause of the loss, and the source of the information. You can note, too, any facts you aren’t sure of, and we can work together to find out. I will keep track of what she know in a spreadsheet, for now. I have already started it.
Does anyone want to work on this with me? If so, do you agree with the format that I propose for the data? Suggestions invited.
and done incredibly well too I might add! you need a copy for your library
regarding other nations, I do not know of a work or works however I cannot imagine the Brits would not have a compilation of all the ships they lost and the men who died…all 30000 of them!
and done incredibly well too I might add! you need a copy for your library
regarding other nations, I do not know of a work or works however I cannot imagine the Brits would not have a compilation of all the ships they lost and the men who died…all 35000 of them!
.[/QUOTE]
Here is a link to a site about Norwegian ships and people sailing them during WWII: http://www.warsailors.com/
incredibly sad when you realize how many of these ships lost would not have been if the UK had built proper escorts before the war started and if the mid ocean air gap was closed far earlier
We have A Careless Word… At the library, but it can’t be checked out or moved between libraries. I need to go to the downtown branch to read it. Which I will do, but not today. Appreciate the links to the other websites. I will post a list here of the ship names and and dates for which I have the data, and a list of data which need to be found… It’s a lot, so give me a little bit of time to put it together, then people can divy up the research based on their interests.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189594]We have A Careless Word… At the library, but it can’t be checked out or moved between libraries. I need to go to the downtown branch to read it. [/QUOTE]
why don’t you just buy a copy for yourself? you can order one direct here if you don’t want to go through other vendors
I’d give you one of the copies I have except they are all buried in boxes in storage
I also happen to have two copies of the original OWI poster that is shown of the books cover but I would never sell yet alone give them away!
I’m a student. My texts alone cost me 2 grand last year. If its not for sale at t3h valu village, I can’t have it. I did find a copy of The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors in the book bin. Neptune obviously loves me more.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189612]I’m a student. My texts alone cost me 2 grand last year. If its not for sale at t3h valu village, I can’t have it. I did find a copy of The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors in the book bin. Neptune obviously loves me more.[/QUOTE]
alas, when I do move all my worldly belongings out of the grocery cart I store then into a more commodious trailer come September, I will make sure to look for the box containing those copies I have. I have three so will be more than happy to foster scholarly edification in a young budding maritime historian like yourself.
I too was young once but that was in a different century in a vastly smaller and simpler world
There are many thousands of ships that should be in this proposed database. I still want to do it, but we’re going to have to divide it up somehow or it’s going to be 7 seas of data. There’s a couple different ways to break this down. To me, the logical divisions are by date, by number of people killed, alphabetical by ship name, by flag, or by location. My preference is by date. How do you-all feel? If we go by date, then we can tell a big story in small pieces. Flag is the worst way, I think: because the American and UK story is too big, and we’ll never hear from Latvia.
1938.03.13 Claus Böge: Germany 20 lived. At least one died. (according to Montreal Gazette) Norwegian antifacicists bombed a German cargo ship.
So if anyone knows more about that. Most of the documents are Norwegian and German, neither of which I can read.
Ok. Find your library cards. Here’s the first batch. Merchant ships lost to hostility during the first week of September 1939.
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.09.03 Athenia: UK passenger ship torpedoed/sunk 117/ 1,418 died. rescue by HMS Electra, HMS Escort, City of Flint ( USA), Knute Nelson ( Norway) and Southern Cross ( Sweden).
1939.09.05 Bosnia: UK cargo ship torpedoed /sunk 1/37 died, rescue by Eidanger ( Norway)
1939.09.05 Inn: Germany cargo ship scuttled by Royal Navy [B]some died?/saved?[/B]
1939.09.05 Royal Sceptre: UK cargo ship torpedoed/shelled/sunk 1/33 died rescue by Browning ( UK)
1939.09.06 Manaar: UK cargo ship sunk 7/63 died rescue by Carvalho Araujo ( Portugal), Castelbianco ( Italy) and Mars ( Netherlands)
1939.09.06 Rio Claro: UK cargo ship torpedoed/shelled/sunk All 41 crew rescue by Stad Maastricht ( Netherlands)
1939.09.07 Gartavon: UK cargo ship shelled/sunk. All 22 crew were rescued by Castor ( Sweden)
1939.09.07 Olivegrove: UK cargo ship torpedoed/sunk rescue by Washington ( USA)[B]how many died?/saved?[/B]
1939.09.07 Pukkastan: UK cargo ship torpedoed/shelled/sunk. All 35 crew rescue by Bilderdijk ( Netherlands)
[B]South Atlantic[/B]
1939.09.03 Olinda: Germany cargo ship sunk by Royal Navy. All [B](how many?)[/B] crew transferred to tanker San Geraldo (UK)
1939.09.04 Carl Fritzen: Germany cargo ship sunk by [B]Royal Navy?/scuttled by crew? some died?/saved?[/B]
[B]Baltic[/B]
1939.09.03 Lloyd Bydgoski B[/B]: Poland [B]cargo?/pilot?[/B]ship torpedoed/sunk[B]some died?/saved?[/B]
1939.09.04 Imanta: Latvia cargo ship mined/sunk 22/22 died.
1939.09.04 Kosti: Greece cargo ship struck a mined/sunk. All 29 crew were rescued by Poseidon (Finland)
[B]Norwegian Sea[/B]
1939.09.04 Johannes Molkenbuhr: Germany cargo ship sunk by [B]Royal Navy?/scuttled by crew? Some?/all?[/B] crew rescued by HMS Jervis.
I think the best way to do it would be to organize it by Flag, then by date. True, the USA and the U.K. Might be a big “contributor” so-to-say,but why shouldn’t they. Or if you really want to do it chronologically first, maybe Year and then Flag.Also a good idea, just for context might be to include important events in the war along the timeline. This could turn into a really great project, even if it has been done before, a fresh one might be nice.
[QUOTE=LI_Domer;189737]I think the best way to do it would be to organize it by Flag, then by date. True, the USA and the U.K. Might be a big “contributor” so-to-say,but why shouldn’t they. Or if you really want to do it chronologically first, maybe Year and then Flag.Also a good idea, just for context might be to include important events in the war along the timeline. This could turn into a really great project, even if it has been done before, a fresh one might be nice.[/QUOTE]
I think about this. Another reason not to do it by flag, is that when we do it by date and location, we get to see all the casualties of a particular battle together, and it gives us a picture of the international cooperation that existed. It was hard to read about the Athenia, but to see that she was helped by the Royal Navy, an American freighter, a Norwegian freighter and a Swedish yacht was kinda a bright spot. Seeing that on the same day in the same place Latvia and Greece each lost cargo ships and one lost all her men while the other lost none, it’s interesting. And it makes you wonder: why are the Greek and Latvian trade sectors being targeted in the first week of the war? What did those Finns have to say about it the next time they were at the pub?
Filled in a few of the blanks and added a couple of incidents.
September 1-7, 1939
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.09.03 Athenia: UK passenger ship torpedoed/sunk 117/ 1,418 died. rescue by HMS Electra, HMS Escort, City of Flint ( USA), Knute Nelson ( Norway) and Southern Cross ( Sweden).
1939.09.03 Pomona: Germany seized by Royal Navy after crew set her on fire.
1939.09.03 Sophie Busse: Germany seized by Royal Navy
1939.09.03 Hanna Boge: Germany seized by Royal Navy north Atlantic*
1939.09.04 Christoph V Doornum: Germany seized by Canadian Forces
1939.09.05 Bosnia: UK cargo ship torpedoed /sunk 1/37 died, rescue by Eidanger ( Norway)
1939.09.05 Inn: Germany cargo ship scuttled by crew 35 passengers *and crew saved and 2 cages of rare birds saved by Royal Navy (Telegraph newspaper)
1939.09.05 Royal Sceptre: UK cargo ship torpedoed/shelled/sunk 1/33 died rescue by Browning ( UK)
1939.09.06 Manaar: UK cargo ship sunk 7/63 died rescue by Carvalho Araujo ( Portugal), Castelbianco ( Italy) and Mars ( Netherlands)
1939.09.06 Rio Claro: UK cargo ship torpedoed/shelled/sunk All 41 crew rescue by Stad Maastricht ( Netherlands)
1939.09.07 Gartavon: UK cargo ship shelled/sunk. All 22 crew were rescued by Castor ( Sweden)
1939.09.07 Olivegrove: UK cargo ship torpedoed/sunk 33/33 crew rescued by U33 (Kriegsmarine) who stood by and guided rescue with flares. Crew transferred to Washington (USA) (uboat.net)
1939.09.07 Pukkastan: UK cargo ship torpedoed/shelled/sunk. All 35 crew rescue by Bilderdijk ( Netherlands)
[B]South Atlantic[/B]
1939.09.03 Durazzo: Germany seized by Venezuela
1939.09.03 Olinda: Germany cargo ship sunk by Royal Navy. All [B](how many?)[/B] crew transferred to tanker San Geraldo (UK)
1939.09.04 Carl Fritzen: Germany cargo ship scuttled by crew. All [crew (Swedish and German) transferred to San Geraldo with crew of Olinda, imprisoned for the rest of the war in Faulklands. (Lost Voices of the Royal Navy) [B]how many saved?[/B]
[B]Baltic[/B]
1939.09.03 Naptha Shipper: [B] flag?[/B] seized by Germany
1939.09.03 Lloyd Bydgoski II: Poland pilot boat torpedoed/sunksmall crew allowed to escape in life boat (Schnellboote: A Complete Operational History)
1939.09.04 Imanta: Latvia cargo ship mined/sunk 22/22 died.
1939.09.04 Kosti: Greece cargo ship struck a mined/sunk. All 29 crew were rescued by Poseidon (Finland)
1939.09.05 Ioannas Carras: Greece [B]type?[/B] Damaged by aircraft/scuttled. [B]lives saved/lost?[/B]
Correction:*
1939.09.06 Manaar: UK cargo ship sunk 42/105 died (British and Indian) rescue by Carvalho Araujo ( Portugal), Castelbianco ( Italy) and Mars ( Netherlands)
Here’s the second week.
September 8-14, 1939
1939.09.08 Tamara: France [B] what happened? Where? Who helped? Were any crew lost?[/B]
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.09.08 Kennebec: UK cargo torpedoed/scuttled. All 22 crew rescue by Breedijk (Netherlands)
1939.09.08 Winkleigh: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk All 37 crew rescue by Statendam (Netherlands)
1939.09.08 Regent Tiger: UK tanker torpedoed/sunk All 41 crew, 3 passengers rescue by Jean Jadot *(Belgium)
1939.09.11 Wellvale: UK trawler shelled/sunk 13/13 died
1939.09.11 Blairlogie: UK cargo shelled/torpedoed/sunk crew provided with cigarettes and gin by Kriegsmarine All 30 rescue by American Shipper (USA)
1939.09.11 Inverliffey: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk All 49 crew rescue by R. G. *Stewart (USA)
1939.09.11 Firby: UK cargo torpedoed/shelled/sunk All 41 crew rescue by Royal Navy
1939.09.13 Davara: UK trawler shelled/sunk all 12 crew rescue by Willowpool (UK)
1939.09.13 Etoile du Matin: French trawler sunk by explosion [B]who helped? Were any crew lost[/B]
1939.09.13 Marie Merveilleuse: French trawler sunk by explosion [B]who helped? Were any crew lost[/B]
1939.09.13 Sultan: French trawler sunk by explosion [B]who helped? Were any crew lost[/B]
1939.09.13 Neptunia: UK tug topedoed/shelled/sunk *[B] Were any crew lost[/B] rescue by Brinkburn (UK)
1939.09.14 British Influence: UK tanker topedoed/sunk *[B] Were any crew lost[/B] rescue by Ida Bakke *(Norway)
1939.09.14 Fanad Head: UK cargo captured/scuttled all 33 crew, 8 passengers rescue by Royal Navy
1939.09.14 Vancouver City: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 3/33 died rescue by Mamura (Netherlands)
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.09.08 Helfrid Bissmark: *Germany coaster mined/sunk [B]some died?/saved?[/B]
1939.09.08 Olivebank: *Finland cargo sailer mined/sunk 14/21 crew died rescue by Tallona (Estonia)
1939.09.09 Mark: Netherlands cargo mined/sunk [B]some died?/saved?[/B]
1939.09.10 Goodwood: UK cargo mined/sunk 1/24 died [B]who rescued?[/B]
1939.09.10 Magdapur: UK cargo mined/sunk 6/81 died rescue by Aldebugh (Royal Lifeboats)
1939.09.13 Ronda: Norway cargo mined/sunk 17/[B]37 or 39?[/B]died ([B]12 or 13?[/B]Norwegians, 2 Americans, 2 Canadians among dead, 4 Americans among survivors) rescue by [B]Providenza/Providencia/Provvidenza?[/B] (Italy)
1939.09.14 Hawarden Castle: UK coaster mined/sunk 5/5 died
I found this gem of a story about the SS Washington (who helped save the passengers and crew of the Athenia on the first day of the war) and her Further Adventures with U-boats. I love a happy ending.
Ida Bakke to the rescue again! 42 rescued from tanker British Influence on September 14, and 37 from tanker Cheyenne the next day. 79 saved in 2 days. Only 39 confirmed dead that whole week. Would have been a lot worse without Ida Bakke.
September 15-21, 1939
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.09.15 Cheyenne: UK tanker shelled/torpedoed/damaged/scuttled 6/43 died rescue by Ida Bakke (Norway)
1939.09.16 Arkleside: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk all [B]how many?[/B] rescued by [B] name?[/B] (French),**[B] name?[/B] (French)
1939.09.16 Aviemore: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 23/34 died rescued by Royal Navy*
1939.09.16 Rudyard Kipling: UK trawler captured/sunk all 12 crew rescue by Kreigsmarine
1939.09.17 Kafiristan: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 6/35 died rescue by American Farmer (USA)
1939.09.18 Arlita: UK cargo shelled/sunk [B]how many?[/B] rescue by Nancy Hague (UK)
1939.09.18 Lord Minto: UK trawler torpedoed/sunk [B]how many?[/B] rescue by Nancy Hague (UK)
1939.09.18 Kensington Court: UK shelled/sunk [B]how many?[/B] rescue by RAF flying boats.
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.09.15 Alex Von Opstel: Belgium cargo mined/sunk 57/57 rescued by Atlanticos (Greece)
1939.09.15 Truro: UK cargo shelled/torpedoed/sunk [B]how many?[/B] rescue by Edwaard van Flaaneren (Belgium), Nautilus (Belgium)
1939.09.16 Bramden: UK cargo mined/sunk 3/[B]out of how many?[/B] died rescue by [B]whom?[/B]
1939.09.16 City of Paris: UK passenger mined/damaged 1/139 died rescue by Contest (UK), Atlantic Cock (UK).
1939.09.[B]?[/B] Madapur: UK*[B] Where? What happened? Who helped? Were any crew lost?[/B]
[B]North Atlantic[/B]
1939.09.24 Caldew: UK trawler shelled/sunk 0/11 died rescue by Kronprincessen Margarete (Sweden).*
1939.09.24 Hazelside: UK cargo torpedoed/sunk 12/34 died rescue by*[B]whom?[/B]
1939.09.24 Minden: Germany cargo intercepted/scuttled all*[B]how many?[/B] crew rescue by Royal Navy
1939.09.29 Azariah: UK [B]sail barge? fishing vessel?[/B]mined/sunk *[B]Who helped? Were any crew lost?[/B]
[B]North Sea[/B]
1939.09.22 Akenside: UK cargo torpedoed/sank all [B]how many?[/B] rescue [B]by whom?[/B]
1939.09.22 Martti Ragnar: Finland cargo captured/scuttled all [B]how many?[/B] rescue [B]by whom?[/B]
1939.09.24 Kronprincessen Margarete: Sweden cargo intercepted/Caldew crew taken prisoner by Kreigsmarine*
1939.09.24 Gertrude Bratt: Sweden cargo torpedoed/sunk*[B]how many survived?[/B]
1939.09.24 Phryné: France cargo mined/sunk all [B]how many?[/B] crew rescued by Royal Navy
1939.09.25 Silesia: Sweden cargotorpedoed/sunk all 19 rescue by Suecia (Sweden)
1939.09.27 Jem: Norway coaster captured/sunk all 13 crew rescue by Caledonia (Sweden)
1939.09.27 Nyland: Sweden cargo torpedoed/sunk[B]how many?[/B] rescue by Royal Norwegian Navy
1939.09.28-30 Kreigsmarine captured 9-11 merchant ships as war prizes [B]what ships? What became of their crews?[\B]
1939.09.29 Solaas: Norway cargo mined/sunk*[B]how many?[/B] rescue by England (Denmark)
1939.09.29 Takstaas: Norway cargo torpedoed/damaged*[B]how many?[/B] rescue by Royal Norwegian Navy
1939.09.30 Vendia: Denmark cargo torpedoed/sunk 6/17 died rescue by Svava (Denmark)
1939.[B]09.30? 10.01?[\B]Gun: Sweden cargo torpedoed/sunk [B]how many?[/B] rescue by Dagmar (Denmark)
[B]Baltic Sea[/B]
1939.09.23 Walma: Finlandcargo captured/scuttled all [B]how many?[/B] rescue [B]by whom?[/B]
1939.09.26 Metalist: USSR tanker torpedoed/sunk[B]how many?[/B] rescue [B]by whom?[/B] sunk by USSR/blamed on Poland
