WSF Collision with yacht

continuing to place blame on the pleasure vessel operator here diminishes this thread…here we plainly have a vessel operated by licensed officers who were mandated by the COLREGS to avoid a collision with the other vessel but they failed to do that. I does not matter whether that other vessel was under active control by a person at its helm. As long as it was privileged and held its course and speed, the ferry was duty bound to avoid it by either a change of course or speed or both and that such action to avoid a collision be taken in ample time. From all appearances in the video we do not see any attempt to avoid the collision until at a very late moment which was obviously too late.

DO NOT COMPLICATE THIS BY THE FACT THAT THE NAP TYME’s OPERATOR WAS BELOW. IF THE FERRY PILOT WAS A TRUE PROFESSIONAL AND DID THEIR JOB PER THE RULES THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. THE FAULT IS ON THE FERRY…PERIOD!

It’s to bad the whole incident happened. It has been a learning experience for many, to include people not even participating in this thread. I am thankful that nobody was hurt, or even had a far worse outcome. I personally now know more about the COLREGS after reviewing them again. It’s always good to review the rules of the road every so often. I have even learned about the propulsion configuration and rudder design on the WSF. I wonder how long it takes Chetzemoka to slow down enough to clutch in the bow propeller to get full back down power.

[QUOTE=lm1883;193178] The WSF may also have been operating in a channel, fairway or geographic area where it could not maneuver with out grounding [/QUOTE]

I suggest looking at a chart of the area before trying to use that as an excuse for ramming another boat.

[QUOTE=DeepSeaDiver;193179]I wonder how long it takes Chetzemoka to slow down enough to clutch in the bow propeller to get full back down power.[/QUOTE]

Unless WSF has changed the way it operates those boats with fixed pitch props, the engine is always clutched in and enough power is applied to the forward propeller to eliminate the drag created by a stopped or windmilling propeller.

I know there was a lot of work done on the propulsion system post delivery because of problems with the original configuration and much of it included the software that controls the ramping limits.

There are reports of a stack fire which put the boat out of service in 2012 but for some odd reason there does not seem to be any record of any CG incident report or a WSF investigation into the causes and solution. WSF is not exactly the most transparent organization in the State and wagon circling is one of their most perfected procedures.

[QUOTE=lm1883;193184]Nah. I’ll wait for the NTSB report. I think your misunderstanding my whole line of logic. I’m not defending the WSF, nor am I blaming the small craft operator but rather the information at hand is "scanty. .[/QUOTE]

Really? You seem to have changed your tune a bit from earlier … has information become “scanty” since you made the following statement?

Quote Originally Posted by lm1883: “First the stand on vessel collided with the ferry, not the other way around.”

Yachtie driver to CG investigator: “Yeah, I rammed the ferry’s bow with my port beam while I was taking a piss.”

slowing to a stop to allow the other vessel to pass at a safe distance is totally provided for in the COLREGS and that negates any shoals, rocks or other dangers you seem to feel might have given the ferry’s pilot the reason not to have turned to starboard before the collision. I always tell my mates to pull the throttles back to zero the instant there is any doubt in their minds. very few dangerous situations CANNOT be made safe with the slowing or stopping of one’s own vessel.

What I object to is the incredible jump to damning conclusions by watching a YouTube videos. Moreover the over the top language used would not only convey bias but some sort of bitterness or axe to grind with said organization.

you are correct to assume that I am not in love with the WSF or WSF people. they are a truly sheltered and insular bunch who could never operate commercial vessels in our world because they come from a very closed professional environment where there is very little potential to being not rewarded hansomely for substandard service. just what one expects from government run operations much like the modern military. I have always believed the fact that almost every WSF master or chief has never worked anywhere other than at “in the system” makes them unable to think or act outside of a very narrow view of the maritime world which invariably is centered around themselves first and foremost. besides the video tells me more than enough in that the ferry sounded the danger signal to the stand on vessel! IT IS THE STAND ON VESSEL THAT IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND THE DANGER SIGNAL TO THE GIVEWAY VESSEL WHEN IT ISN’T TAKING ACTION!

read:

(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle.

why on earth should the ferry’s officer have any doubts since he was the one burdened and not the pleasure vessel? the pleasure vessel was never required to take any action other than to maintain its course and speed until such moment that the actions of the ferry alone could not prevent the collision. why was the ferry so close when the COLREGS mandated that it stay well clear of the vessel approaching from its starboard side? again, I come back to the requirement that actions taken be positive in ample time and it does not matter one whit if the burdened vessel is a State owned and operated ferry and the other is a much smaller pleasure vessel. The Rules do not make distinctions here and imagine the outcry if the ferry had slammed into the side of cruiseship or tanker? the watch officer would have been taken off in handcuffs! it is quite possible that the little boat sneaked up on the ferry when the watch was preoccupied and they sounded the danger signal when they saw a collision imminent? if that is the reality of the situation again we have a negligent ferry bridge team. arrogance or inattention…there is no way anyone can exonerate the ferry in this case

I hope for your sake that your posting history here is not used against you if you ever find yourself in the hot seat. Maybe then you might thinking about throwing rocks in a glass house.

If I am in the wrong like that ferry’s pilot was then I would be more than prepared to take the criticism of my fellows. If I fuck up like this, I do not warrant to be protected by anyone and will own up to my own fallibility if the circumstances call for it. We are all humans and prone to error but when such errors are plain for the world to see where totally avoidable, then condemnation is allowed and it is right that it be made.

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Currently, the Chetzemoka is underway. Steaming at 11 Knots on the pd-tal route. This is only a 12-minute voyage. There are no restrictions on the NOAA chart.

UPDATE: And she is now off and running again. This time eta is 11 minutes. Yup NEW UPDATE: 12 minutes again. She is at dock again.

Like I said, he was doing the ferry routine. Sail your route, blow your horn and expect recreational craft to give way. That being said ferries typically time their departure to miss commercial traffic and generally give way to commercial traffic if they do cross paths.

Just my observations when dealing with ferries on the east and gulf coasts.

They saw that yacht from quite a ways out and figured for several minutes the yacht would give way and take their stern, despite that being the opposite of the COLREGS for the given situation as it appears. Only at the last moment did it truly dawn on them the yacht wouldn’t turn. When you sail the same route countless times for years and nothing bad ever happens, you can get complacent.

I wonder if the ferry was autonomous it would have made a better decision??

[QUOTE=DeepSeaDiver;193188]Currently, the Chetzemoka is underway. Steaming at 11 Knots on the pd-tal route. This is only a 12-minute voyage. There are no restrictions on the NOAA chart.

UPDATE: And she is now off and running again. This time eta is 11 minutes. Yup NEW UPDATE: 12 minutes again. She is at dock again.[/QUOTE]

Thank you perfesser of the trivial

Going down below while your vessel is underway is negligent. Not keeping a lookout, not determining risk, not taking action in extremis, also negligent. Violating a safety zone, negligent, usually punishable with a hefty fine. Ferry operator kept a lookout, took action and attempted to avoid collision, sounded the danger signal (it is his right and obligation). Maneuverability of vessels is highly relevant in a situation like this. There are a lot of unknowns but the yacht would be a fool to “lawyer up”. The ferry companies lawyers and experts would shred him. I doubt the CG would see it much differently.

[QUOTE=DeepSeaDiver;193188]Currently, the Chetzemoka is underway. Steaming at 11 Knots on the pd-tal route. This is only a 12-minute voyage. There are no restrictions on the NOAA chart.

UPDATE: And she is now off and running again. This time eta is 11 minutes. Yup NEW UPDATE: 12 minutes again. She is at dock again.[/QUOTE]

wow, thanks for such unbelievably helpful information, I tried writing my response many times to this but, clearly… just could not gather myself. I have just begun to grasp the utter brilliance of this post but it will probably take me many days to truly comprehend the gravity of it.

[QUOTE=Steamer;193183]Unless WSF has changed the way it operates those boats with fixed pitch props, the engine is always clutched in and enough power is applied to the forward propeller to eliminate the drag created by a stopped or windmilling propeller.[/QUOTE]

I’m a little sketchy in the ferry engineering department. Do you mean the forward props are run in reverse to minimize drag while underway? Aren’t the shafts at opposite ends driven by the same powerplant?

[QUOTE=Lee Shore;193197]I’m a little sketchy in the ferry engineering department. Do you mean the forward props are run in reverse to minimize drag while underway? Aren’t the shafts at opposite ends driven by the same powerplant?[/QUOTE]

Not sure about their policy but if gear boxes like Reintjes and ZF with hydraulic clutches, they recommend being clutched-in if shafts are turning with no load for better lubrication for extended periods.

I call bull on that. The CG is gonna ruin that guys life. No injuries, no deaths, no major damage?? They don’t care.

[QUOTE=injunear;193198]Not sure about their policy but if gear boxes like Reintjes and ZF with hydraulic clutches, they recommend being clutched-in if shafts are turning with no load for better lubrication for extended periods.[/QUOTE]

By clutched in I take it you mean the shafts are allowed to spin freely driven by the props?

[QUOTE=lm1883;193196]This post is more fitting for a professional mariner.[/QUOTE]

as if I was anything but…

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Chetzemoka is 273 feet 8 inches long with a 64-foot beam. Minimum draft is 9 feet; maximum is 11 feet 6 inches. The design is a classic roll-on/roll-off with [B][U]engine rooms at opposite ends of the hull[/U][/B] they have symmetrical propulsion at each end. There are twin pilothouses at opposite ends of the bridge deck.

Several pics and a video tour found here.

Main engines are a pair of EMD 12-710 diesels rated at 3,000 hp each at 900 rpm. These, along with an identical pair, were in storage at WSF; the second pair will be used on the second ferry of the series. Also on hand at WSF were two pairs of MTU Series 60 engines, one rated at 300 kW and one at 350 kW. These are being put to use as generators on the first two ferries.

Each main engine powers a Reintjes WAF 3445K gear, each with a 3.036:1 reduction and internal shaft brakes, spinning a 90-inch Rolls-Royce stainless-steel propeller. Rudders on each end of the vessel are of the high-lift flap type. The gears were supplied by Karl Senner, of Kenner, La.

Source:

http://www.professionalmariner.com/October-2010/Chetzemoka/

I believe the Nap Tyme yacht might be a Westport 47?

[QUOTE=Lee Shore;193197]I’m a little sketchy in the ferry engineering department. Do you mean the forward props are run in reverse to minimize drag while underway? Aren’t the shafts at opposite ends driven by the same powerplant?[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. The forward prop is driven in reverse with just enough power to overcome windmilling drag.

They are not both driven by the same engine in normal operation. There are two engines and two gearboxes. I have not worked on the Chetzemoka but from what I read it is powered like many others of the type. A jackshaft is fitted between gearboxes that allow either engine to drive either shaft in the case of an engine failure.

The engines are located in the center of the vessel, not at each end.

So it would have been OK with you if that was what happened? Are you claiming that the burdened vessel is somehow “less burdened” if it is hit while it crosses the bow of the stand on vessel?

However, the premise still stands. When all you have is a YouTube video, that’s “scanty”. Your over the top diatribe was unprofessional wether you had the facts (which you don’t) or not. Until such time as a report is issued you can only speculate, that’s it. In the mean time friends, family members, WSF customers, media, etc… may read these threads and means we need to post responsibly in the event we are wrong.

The youtube video shows very clearly which vessel was the give way vessel. You may not like the source or what you see but there can be no doubt or controversy about which is the burdened vessel. There is nothing scanty about what is seen of the yacht’s track. There is nothing to speculate about, what is seen on the video is what happened.

Why is that so difficult for you to accept? If you saw a security cam video of a 7-11 holdup would you claim that it might have been something else?

Diatribe? No diatribe is necessary, the ferry captain failed in his duties just as much as the yachtie … period. Maybe more so since he saw it coming and he was the professional in command of the burdened vessel. The stupidity, ignorance, or negligence of the yacht driver does not relieve the ferry captain of his duties. The ferry captain made a conscious decision to maintain course (and speed? - to be determined) despite a clear and obvious collision threat until it was too late to prevent the collision.

Do I think the ferry captain should “hang?” Yes I do. He was placed in a position of trust and responsibility based on his skills and competence. This incident shows that he chose not to exercise those skills and demonstrate the trust that earned him that position. There are many more skilled, competent, and trustworthy license holders waiting for the opportunity to fill the role that the ferry captain failed to uphold. He had his chance and failed, it’s time to let someone else fill that role. Hopefully that person will not fall victim to the complacency and arrogance that seems to infect WSF captains after a few years of being the biggest fish in the small pond.

The real problem this incident illustrates is the attitude of working mariners (much of what I have read stops me from saying professional) that the all too common stupidity demonstrated by recreational boaters relieves the working boater of responsibility to play by the rules. Read the thread here and on other boating sites, the majority seem to think that since the yachtie was stupid, not at the helm, did not change course or speed, was negligent, was whatever in the world they think of him and they think the ferry would have run aground, injured passengers by turning or stopping, was constrained by draft or maneuverability or some other horsecrap the real diatribe and lynching is against the guy who had the “right of way.”

When any of us point out the obvious, and some of us know how the WSF culture works, those mariners who can’t bear being told they don’t have special rights on the water think those of us who point out that fact are “unprofessional.” Got news for you Im, I used to hold (let it expire) a master’s ticket and have worked on the WSF boats as well as yachts, tugs, containerships and tankers transiting Puget Sound and I object to being called unprofessional for pointing out what may be an uncomfortable fact for some people.