What's the difference?

Miss Cajaya, let me correct you…plain and simple…if he is hired as an AB Then he should perform his job as an AB on that boat…I dont care if he has a bigger license than the Mate.

Thanks guys for clearing everything up and voicing your opinions. The guy I was talking about was fired like a month ago. I was just curious to whether he was right or wrong. In my opinion who’s ever in higher authority over you just do what you’re told. Plain and simple. I’m only a deckhand and apparently he only knew a little bit more than me so this must have been his first time on a tug. This other person I work with has been a deckhand over 10 years( says he doesn’t want to move up because it’s too much responsibility) was complaining about the AB because he was getting paid more than him but didn’t know anything lol

[QUOTE=Mjordan22;174827]Thanks guys for clearing everything up and voicing your opinions. The guy I was talking about was fired like a month ago. I was just curious to whether he was right or wrong. In my opinion who’s ever in higher authority over you just do what you’re told. Plain and simple. I’m only a deckhand and apparently he only knew a little bit more than me so this must have been his first time on a tug. This other person I work with has been a deckhand over 10 years( says he doesn’t want to move up because it’s too much responsibility) was complaining about the AB because he was getting paid more than him but didn’t know anything lol[/QUOTE]

Remember, though, that sometimes the guy in charge is dangerous, or is trying to screw you. Learn your rights and be ready to stand up for them, but remember to be practical. If a supervisor is trying to make you work unsafely or steal money from you that you’ve earned, you’d better be able to speak up, or at least get some help.

That said, I’ve seen too many sea lawyers screw up a perfectly good tit-for-tat arrangement by demanding that we go by the contract on some inconsequential perk. The 2nd Assistant Pencil Sharpener wins his contractual right to keep one pencil for every 60 days of covered employment, but now everybody has to knock off at 5 o’clock sharp instead of getting to take off twenty minutes early.

A 6 Pac license is the smallest deck license possible. I was being sarcastic. Yes, you are right. The AB should do as he’s told.
If he is over his work hours then that is a different story. The marine safety manual states any seaman has the right to refuse unnecessary work beyond 8 hours, and on Sundays or holidays, 8 hours doesn’t apply if they are paid according to a 12 hour day. If a 12 hour day is the case, then they are allowed to refuse any unnecessary work beyond 12 hours. However, I have never heard of a place that honors that, and tugs are not known for caring about rest hours. People that complain get booted. That is the way it is. In short, yes he should have just done what the mate said.

[QUOTE=cajaya;174832] However, I have never heard of a place that honors that, and tugs are not known for caring about rest hours. [/QUOTE]

Doing six on/six off, how in the hell can anyone get the proper rest hours? What company does care about rest hours and adamantly enforces them? I personally have never had an employer like that.

Tankers, the only place I have seen anyone keep track of rest hours. They didn’t care about Sundays though.

[QUOTE=Ctony;174841]Doing six on/six off, how in the hell can anyone get the proper rest hours? What company does care about rest hours and adamantly enforces them? I personally have never had an employer like that.[/QUOTE]

It meets the STCW standards…

Oh believe me, companies care about rest hours, they care about it not being an issue for them. Basically its like when Ben Stiller said “deal with it.”

Be in compliance, but don’t make it our problem.

//youtu.be/LH62Jd5qCj0

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;174846]It meets the STCW standards…[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it does.

Just saying, practically, in many cases it doesn’t work unless the boat is crewed properly so no one is called off watch.
When I used to be in a scenario like this, I was all about getting the OT. Figure I’m stuck there anyway might as well make some $. But then again when fatigue becomes an issue and then there’s an incident…

Companies give a lot of lip service to safety, STCW, ISM, AWO RCP, with rest hours and so on. They require lots of paperwork to “prove” compliance, but in reality, they just expect you to get the job done and pencilwhip the paperwork as necessary. Some companies just ignore most of it.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;174846]It meets the STCW standards…[/QUOTE]

Ok, about that… STCW standards apply to anyone holding duties on the station bill? The station bill could be reduced to only personnel that are required by the COI? That leaves everyone else as cannon fodder except as limited by the most recent labor convention?

I am pretty certain that if the work hours were maxed out there would be some very miserable mariners… Can’t imagine all the poor foreign bastards that are abused much more than we care to think about.

Not sure if I have posted this before or not but here is a true story of a company calling to complain about me a CE going over my “Hours”.

My Captain had tried to get me to change the hours that I was putting into the Spreadsheet that the Company insisted we use to track our “Work Hours”. If you went over it turned the total to RED. I told him that if he wanted to Change what was sent in I still had my copy and that I also logged my hours in the Official ER Log. My way of looking at it was that the “Real” hours worked should be logged as a CYA and also to hopefully point out how a two watch system does not work when trying to stay under the allowed hours.

So, one day at 1400 I was told to pick up the Telephone as my Shore Side Supervisor needed to speak to me. He wasted NO time in telling me how important it was to stay under the “Safe” Hours and how I was breaking Company Regulations by continually logging my work hours.

I tried to explain how working a 6 on 6 off watch that anything could put me over the hours listed in Company regs and also Government Regs.

He then asked my what would cause me to “Go Over” my hours. I said well anytime that we had to take on Bunkers when I was off watch as Company Regs required two (2) people on deck during Bunkering. Also, any time that we had repairs going on in port that I was required as CE to sign off on meant that I could be up for well over twenty four (24) hours very easily and that it happened quite often. The only times that I did not go over was when we had three (3) Engineers onboard.

The best part of this conversation was went I told him that this phone call put me OVER my hours as it “HAD” to be listed since it was Vessel Business and that if they wanted me to try and stay under my hours to please not call me when I am OFF Watch!

[QUOTE=cajaya;174832]A 6 Pac license is the smallest deck license possible…QUOTE]

Depends on how you measure “small.” There is a deck license that conveys no operating authority - Apprentice Mate/Steersman of Towing Vessels. All it conveys is the ability to continue progressing to Mate/Pilot of Towing Vessels.

There is also a Limited OUPV.

[QUOTE=Tugs;174867]Not sure if I have posted this before or not but here is a true story of a company calling to complain about me a CE going over my “Hours”.

My Captain had tried to get me to change the hours that I was putting into the Spreadsheet that the Company insisted we use to track our “Work Hours”. If you went over it turned the total to RED. I told him that if he wanted to Change what was sent in I still had my copy and that I also logged my hours in the Official ER Log. My way of looking at it was that the “Real” hours worked should be logged as a CYA and also to hopefully point out how a two watch system does not work when trying to stay under the allowed hours.

So, one day at 1400 I was told to pick up the Telephone as my Shore Side Supervisor needed to speak to me. He wasted NO time in telling me how important it was to stay under the “Safe” Hours and how I was breaking Company Regulations by continually logging my work hours.

I tried to explain how working a 6 on 6 off watch that anything could put me over the hours listed in Company regs and also Government Regs.

He then asked my what would cause me to “Go Over” my hours. I said well anytime that we had to take on Bunkers when I was off watch as Company Regs required two (2) people on deck during Bunkering. Also, any time that we had repairs going on in port that I was required as CE to sign off on meant that I could be up for well over twenty four (24) hours very easily and that it happened quite often. The only times that I did not go over was when we had three (3) Engineers onboard.

The best part of this conversation was went I told him that this phone call put me OVER my hours as it “HAD” to be listed since it was Vessel Business and that if they wanted me to try and stay under my hours to please not call me when I am OFF Watch![/QUOTE]

When I worked for Crowley, on most of their tugs, there was only one engineer. We would stand the 8-12 watch, the same as the Old Man, and would do most of our maintenance, data gathering, cleaning, etc. during those watch hours. 8 hours a day. OT came in when we had maneuvering outside of 8-12 (and that was avoided since it would put both myself and the Old Man onto OT). I still made a pretty good OT killing with off watch alarm responses, emergency repairs, etc. Often times I would have the Old Man sign about two or three pages of OT compared to his one or two lines per voyage. Most of the time, I was the highest paid (and youngest, too) onboard. Not that I didn’t earn every hour of that OT, though. Hawserboat engineers will know what I mean.

When I first went over to the ATB, we had two engineers with 6x6 of 12x12 watches. I can tell you that I NEVER felt fully rested. There was always work to do outside of watch, especially for the CE, especially with the barge fully accessible while underway. After about a year or so, I lobbied the office for an extra engineer so we could go to the three watch system like the mates. They surprisingly agreed and it was a much better way to get things done. One of the advantages of working with a one vessel company. I can tell you that they saved money just by having better maintenance done with coherent engineers. Of course as I stated in another thread, this was all pre-STCW. . . . .This isn’t to say that I didn’t still do a lot of off watch work. I would guess that it was about the same in the long run; but the on watch hours were reduced and that made all of the difference.

I average about 15 hours a day. I think that’s pretty typical on tugs.

[QUOTE=tugsailor;174878]I average about 15 hours a day. I think that’s pretty typical on tugs.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, maybe a bit less, I would say about 10 hours on a hawser boat and maybe 12-13 on an ATB, depending on the condition of the barge. That said, the timing is the issue. Those extra hours are a bit easier with two four hour watches being mandatory, at least that is my experience. Regardless of 6x6 or 12x12, that extra time really eats into the available rest time.

Averaged out to 12 or less here, seeing as we break watch for extra rest whenever we aren’t underway and break anchor watches up with anyone extra licensespd when appropriate. Throwing in an extra 3-4 hours of rest while loading/discharging every few days really changes the average.

[QUOTE=jdcavo;174871]

Depends on how you measure “small.” There is a deck license that conveys no operating authority - Apprentice Mate/Steersman of Towing Vessels. All it conveys is the ability to continue progressing to Mate/Pilot of Towing Vessels.

There is also a Limited OUPV.[/QUOTE]

Well that is good to know. If you want to get into semantics, what I meant was, the 6 Pac operator of uninspected passenger vessels of up to 6 passengers license is pretty much the most useless license on a commercial vessel. Are there uninspected commercial vessels? Yes, but a 6 Pac wouldn’t qualify someone to operate one that I know of, and I have never heard someone get spoken to like that on a passenger vessel so I assumed it was commercial. The 6 Pac license comment was supposed to be a joke, anyone who has worked on commercial vessels for awhile would know that. The notion that a 6 Pac license holder would think they are entitled any kind of rank on a commercial vessel is laughable (although it probably happens sometimes until someone schools them on reality). Apparently not everyone that uses gcaptain works on the water, and that’s ok.

On that note, I have been thinking about getting some kind of deck ticket so maybe I will try out the steersman/mate of towing vessels to start out.

[QUOTE=z-drive;174882]Averaged out to 12 or less here, seeing as we break watch for extra rest whenever we aren’t underway and break anchor watches up with anyone extra licensespd when appropriate. Throwing in an extra 3-4 hours of rest while loading/discharging every few days really changes the average.[/QUOTE]

I once worked at a place where the hours were excessive on a regular basis (not just sometimes) to the point where it was dangerous. I finally had enough when I lost my footing and fell from height during one of those said kind if days (which was almost everyday). I could have easily been seriously injured or worse and missed a blunt object by a hair. I was lucky to walk away with only bad bruising. I quit shortly after that because I figured my health and safety were more important than that job. Yea, it was a tug.

It would be nice if there was some kind of list of companies that are known for honering safe working hours so people can know what they are getting into before they sign up. I know government vessels, union contracted tankers, and bigger companies in general do and a friend of mine worked on Crowley tugs in the recent past and never mentioned anything about excessive hours.

Don’t bother with limited tonnage tickets, an AB unlimited would be better. A 6 pac is mostly used for people who operate charter fishing boats, or things like that.

They are quick to regale you with stories of their vaunted Captaining, though. Until they inevitably ask you what you do. Then ask you what license you have? Then the frantic backpedaling begins.