What type of service is creditable as "equivalent supervisory service" for master?

Before breaking out the “pointed” sticks as Mr. Cavo calls them (among others). My head is spinning from reading MSM’s, NVIC’s, CFR’s and other alphabet soup’s, along with much trolling here @ gCaptain, online and several dictionaries and law case definitions of equivalent. I feel it’s time to ask the all knowledgable bunch of cutthroats, scalawags and honorable ladies and gents of this forum; “just what the hell is equivalent supervisory service”? I see it has been ASKED here before, just not ANSWERED (that I can find anyway).reason for needing to know.my last employment with the same individual was of a 10 year period where I was for the first 8 years the unlicensed captain of a 58 ton sport fishing vessel, my next 2 years with the individual I was the unlicensed captain of the same employer’s 245 ton yacht we used as a support vessel( “mothership”) to fuel and supply the fishing boat in remote locations throughout the world. I was the head person in charge of 9 crew members employed on the 2 vessels, I did all the hiring and firing. Once the individual purchased the “mothership” I did hire an unlimited master, and engineer to serve on this vessel and a licensed 100 ton master to drive the fishing boat when traveling. I was @ the helm as needed on either vessel and regularly as the captain when we were fishing. Both vessels were British Virgin Island documented/registered and w/o COI’s, uninspected.I had previously held a 100ton Master/200ton Mate license (6th issue 100ton) which I let expire due to some stupid sh*t I got myself into prior to this job. I disclosed fully everything to the employer and he was ok with this and hired me on my reputation, and experience (his words). He got out of the business this past sept. and I went and had my 100ton renewed and now have been approved to test for my 200ton mate again. I would like to apply this sea time of the last 10 years to a larger license. I have 1,680 days on the 58 ton vessel and 398 (8) hour days (another topic) on the 245 ton vessel where I did all the navigational planning, provisioning, drills, etc., basically serving as the “equivalent” to an OCMI. I mean, I even authored the employee hand book and safety manual for goodness sakes!My unlimited Captain onboard taught me a lot and I would like to think I did the same for him. He did sign off on my RFPNW which puts me in a conundrum as far as the sea time on the larger vessel. In my mind, if I have him sign a letter for my sea time as OS to enable my getting the RFPNW, then I likely can’t challenge the “equivalent supervisory service” to allow me to be credited for the 398 (8)hr days on the 245 ton vessel. My former employer has signed my sea time on both vessels as operator. This is all I can come up with that is relatively close to the explanation I am asking for here:found on this site ~ [B]National Maritime Center [/B]Providing Credentials to Mariners dated: 04/13/2013titled: Crediting Sea Servicepg. 6[B]What type of service is creditable as equivalent supervisory service for DDE?” [/B]The phrase “equivalent supervisory position” refers to service in a position as an engineer rating on vessels where engineering licenses and QMED ratings are not required (e.g., tugs, fishing vessels, etc.). (MSM, Chapter 12 (7)) To be creditable toward DDE, “equivalent supervisory position” service must have been as a full time engineer in an operating engine room. OCMIs may accept service on vessels less than 100 gross tons provided the vessel has a “walk in” engine room with an engineering plant comparable to vessels over 100 gross tons (e.g., electrical generators and other auxiliaries independent of the main engines). (MSM, Chapter 12 (8))I did read both these MSM’s and found nothing similar that applies to master/mate.I am currently running another sport fishing vessel out of the country, not making near enough money and ready to be back home on a more regular basis after 35 years of chasing these damn marlin all over our planet’s oceans. I cut my teeth on stand by vessels in the GOM in the late 70’s-early 80’s and want to go back to the GOM, get my license up and go to work with a company that hopefully I can retire with in 12-15 years. Since I was laid off I have renewed to 100 ton (in a hurry in order to take this job), taken and received my BST, HUET, Gulf Safe & Rigging on my own dime. I am undecided whether to go first for the 200ton mate renewal or my AB w/PSC? Seems it may be better to get back into to the gulf with my AB w/RFPNW than with 200ton mate. But not worth it if I can pursue @ least my 500ton Mate now. I have a small farm and home roughly 4 hours from NOLA and a 15 year old son that lives w/my ex in Houma, so it’s somewhat about the money, but more so about him and me being home some. I’m stuck here for a while unless I fire this owner, but thinking to try and hang on until sept. or @ least July.My fonts are getting small and I apologize for whatever happened here with that. It’s late and I have to pull an oil cooler in the morning so I’m going to leave at this until tom. night. Thanks in advance for all input.Standing bye,

I’m not positive but pretty sure all your time unlicensed as a captain or mate is illegal therefore does not exist so you can only claim that time as a deckhand.

I guess I just need to write it all down to wrap my head around it. Went back and took another look @ the checklist. I can do 200ton Master NC or 1600 mate NC now. Think I will go for either the 200 master or AB unlimited to get myself started in the gulf and work through some schooling on my off days first year as I work toward 500 Master/1600 mate.

Thanks for hearing me out and let the sticks fly!

feel free to comment with advice, input on what you think would be my best bet to get my foot in the door.

Thanks for the help, it worked.

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I’d still like to know the definition of “equivalent supervisory position”? though it doesn’t apply to me as I had thought it did.

No one here will be able to give you the answer you are looking for. The only way to know for sure is to gather all the documentation you have and submit your application for the license you are trying to get. Worst case scenario…you get denied and appeal the decision.

Hire a professional licensing consultant such as Chuck Kakuska or Holly Chetta.

They are worth their weight in gold, and will save you a lot of agravation.

[QUOTE=water;137202]Hire a professional licensing consultant such as Chuck Kakuska or Holly Chetta.

They are worth their weight in gold, and will save you a lot of agravation.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! Get a good license consultant.

Would you go to court in a serious matter without a lawyer? No? Would you perform surgery on yourself? No? Would you go to an IRS audit by yourself? No? Then why would you take on the NMC without a license consultant ???

By the way, some of the advice you have gotten on this thread is dead WRONG. You certainly can use seatime as an unlicensed master on a yacht under 300 tons or fishing boat under 200 tons, because no license is required to sail as master of those types of vessels.

[QUOTE=tugsailor;137210]Absolutely! Get a good license consultant.

Would you go to court in a serious matter without a lawyer? No? Would you perform surgery on yourself? No? Would you go to an IRS audit by yourself? No? Then why would you take on the NMC without a license consultant ???

By the way, some of the advice you have gotten on this thread is dead WRONG. You certainly can use seatime as an unlicensed master on a yacht under 300 tons or fishing boat under 200 tons, because no license is required to sail as master of those types of vessels.[/QUOTE]

No I wouldn’t, I have spoken with MS. Chetta, she helped me on my expired renewal and will help with this and appeal if necessary. Thought since I had looked so much here for info that I would throw it out there for you guys too. OF course I’m hoping Mr. Cavo chimes in as well.

Thank you on the heads up about bad advice on here, as with any other sight. I know for a fact that what you say about using time as an unlicensed master on a yacht can be done, personally I have used this for a smaller license, however not sure what the answer will be for a larger license. As you say, a professional will know how best to make application and how to successfully appeal the decision if it were to be adverse.

Thanks for the confirmation

[QUOTE=Azimuth;137193]No one here will be able to give you the answer you are looking for. The only way to know for sure is to gather all the documentation you have and submit your application for the license you are trying to get. Worst case scenario…you get denied and appeal the decision.[/QUOTE]

I thank you for that, however I believe tugsailer & water are spot on with hiring a professional. Even though it is specified in the MSM (marine Safety Manual, volume 111, Marine Industry Personnel - a small 341 page read I had last night) for the MMC personal (evaluators, examiners) to make the sailor aware that he is eligible for a different/higher grade, I don’t trust this is always the case from us mariners that are making our own applications vs. having someone that deals with them on a regular basis argue it for you. As water said; “they are worth their weight in gold”.

It can’t get to calm to scare me…

It was always my understanding if you are for hire, which he was, then you must have a license. The owner of the yacht employed him. He didn’t own the yacht. Same with fishing vessels. If you’re fishing for yourself then that is one thing, but if you are chartering the vessel, then you need a license.

[QUOTE=justaboatdriver;137223]It was always my understanding if you are for hire, which he was, then you must have a license. The owner of the yacht employed him. He didn’t own the yacht. Same with fishing vessels. If you’re fishing for yourself then that is one thing, but if you are chartering the vessel, then you need a license.[/QUOTE]

You make a very good point regarding whether he was operating a boat that was “for hire”. I am not going to get into that. A boat that is “for hire” in the US would require a license (and a COI for vessels carrying more than 6 passengers, or over a certain size).

Working as a yacht captain, hired by the owner, or a legitimate bareboat charterer, on a private US flag yacht under 300 tons does not require any sort of USCG license. Nor is a hired captain on a US flag fishing boat under 200 tons required to have any sort of USCG license. There is no requirement whatsoever that he own the boat in order to be an unlicensed master. A license is required if the boat is “for hire,” but not merely because the guy was hired by the owner to be the captain.

He mentioned that a lot of his experience was on BVI registered vessels without a COI. So, USCG requirements would not apply to that employment in the BVI. I do not know anything about BVI requirements. I’ll leave that to someone else.

[QUOTE=justaboatdriver;137223]It was always my understanding if you are for hire, which he was, then you must have a license. The owner of the yacht employed him. He didn’t own the yacht. Same with fishing vessels. If you’re fishing for yourself then that is one thing, but if you are chartering the vessel, then you need a license.[/QUOTE]

Negative on your facts justaboatdriver, first of all, this experience was in a foreign country (I am a US citizen), on foreign flagged vessels. I was employed by a US citizen with a flag of connivence (that’s a whole 'nother subject in itself) but this has nothing to do with it. If you have a license issued in the country you are chartering/“for hire” in you can charter, WE DID NOT. We were traveling the world chasing I.G.F.A.(International Game Fishing Association) world records for one individual. This is classified basically as a foreign flagged yacht w/o a COI that doesn’t require a licensed Mariner by the flag country. Even when the foreign flagged vessel enters the US on a cruising permit (again not for hire) there are no manning regs requiring a licensed master. Though there is a very strong suggestion of a licensed Master that speaks english, a licensed mate and a licensed engineer on a vessel over 100 tons, nothing under 100 tons as I understand it. This is reiterated in the same MSM as mentioned above. I am currently on a not for hire sport fishing vessel in an island owned by the US, however the vessel is foreign flagged (we are on a one year cruising permit) and the only entity requiring a master is the insurance company, which is most often the case. My former employee on the vessels I posted about declined insurance every year for 10 years, no matter how much I pressed him about it.

[QUOTE=tugboatchief;137214]http://www.marinerhelp.com/[/QUOTE]

bookmarked for future reference. Thanks Chief.

[QUOTE=roundabout;137230]Negative on your facts justaboatdriver, first of all, this experience was in a foreign country (I am a US citizen), on foreign flagged vessels. I was employed by a US citizen with a flag of connivence (that’s a whole 'nother subject in itself) but this has nothing to do with it. If you have a license issued in the country you are chartering/“for hire” in you can charter, WE DID NOT. We were traveling the world chasing I.G.F.A.(International Game Fishing Association) world records for one individual. This is classified basically as a foreign flagged yacht w/o a COI that doesn’t require a licensed Mariner by the flag country. Even when the foreign flagged vessel enters the US on a cruising permit (again not for hire) there are no manning regs requiring a licensed master. Though there is a very strong suggestion of a licensed Master that speaks english, a licensed mate and a licensed engineer on a vessel over 100 tons, nothing under 100 tons as I understand it. This is reiterated in the same MSM as mentioned above. I am currently on a not for hire sport fishing vessel in an island owned by the US, however the vessel is foreign flagged (we are on a one year cruising permit) and the only entity requiring a master is the insurance company, which is most often the case. My former employee on the vessels I posted about declined insurance every year for 10 years, no matter how much I pressed him about it.[/QUOTE]

This one of those peculiar situations that just screams: LICENSE CONSULTANT.

Surely a professional consultant…but heres my first run at a license. Things are a bit more confusing now days. Now everytime some nut runs into a bridge with a tug and barge…we all have to go back to school and prove that we are smarter or more careful than that. $$$$$$$$$$$$

In ‘92 after fishing and running my own boats in earlier days (the story we used in Alaska was “if you can afford to buy it, and have the nuts…You can drive it” So in fifteen years we went from an open 18 ft skiff to a 92’ master marine built and ran from Alaska to the south pacific.

When I turned in all my papers to the REC in Seattle, and entered NW maritime Sea-school I didn’t know what to expect. After four weeks of learning how to take a coast guard test…I was evaluated with 2300 days of valid seatime and tested for NC Master 100, nc mate 200, 1600 ton fishboat captain and was given an AB unlimited.
Those are my first documents and all from operating as owner/operater of my own fishing boat, no license. Of course I tested in the exam room at CG. Tests in those days were nav gen, deck safety, deck general, rules, nav plotting, and all the seamanship for ab as well as lifeboatman. I also did the radar, basic and advanced firefighting, BRM (how to act in the wheelhouse) CPR, cold water survival and rescue. I am sure there was more but…all I know is I was stoked.

Not of any real help to your situation, but we used to trust the REC to fairly evaluate our work history. By the way…Seattle REC printed my license with 2 hours of completing all my requirements.

This sport boat/mothership operation wasn’t the hooker and madam was it?

[QUOTE=Traitor Yankee;137298]This sport boat/mothership operation wasn’t the hooker and madam was it?[/QUOTE]

negative Capt. though I did some time there in the mid 80’s. Best bunch of mariners and fisheads you’ll meet they were. Starting w/Kip and on to Trevor and gang. Very similiar op, just more recent.

Tight Lines,

Captain Ron is my training dvd

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I meant *Skip

Cool, I figured it was something more recent but had to ask. That was a pretty awesome operation.

[QUOTE=roundabout;137219]…OF course I’m hoping Mr. Cavo chimes in as well.[/QUOTE]

I can’t. You’re asking for an interpretation of something you’re considering including in an application. It has a reasonable possibility of resulting in an appeal, and since my office will handle that appeal, I cannot get involved in order to preserve a neutral, disinterested appeal process.