What is the compelling national interest in having a U.S. Merchant Marine Academy?

Maritime Academy USMMA
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[QUOTE=leadline;109039]LOL. Keep it up and watch what’s left of the industry die.
The point of No KP No Jones Act has to do how senators and congressman look at legislation. So the government pays for licensed officers what’s that school is gone it’s easy to say well we really don’t need the Jones Act. We subsidized officer training why subsided employment. Do you even think that congressman and senators know that there are state maritime colleges or even care?
Again this is the slow dismantling of the maritime industry.[/QUOTE]

The budget for USMMA is $85 Million. They have about 1000 students, so the cost is about $85,000 per kid per year. That’s without having a training ship. If they had one the cost would go up, a lot.

The cost of tuition, room, board, summer sea term, etc for an in state student at SUNY Maritime is about $20,000 per year and about $31,000 for an out of state student.

Kings Point spends almost 3 times per student, per year than it costs an out of state student to attend SUNY Maritime. I’m guessing that the cost at the other state maritime schools are much closr to SUNY than USMMA. Who would not be surprised that it costs the feds almost 3 times more to do the same thing as non fed schools.

All the other “service” academies require grads to enter full time ACTIVE military service for at least 5 years after grad. The Kings Point grads only have to join the reserve - mostly inactive. The absurd cost of running KP, compared to the state schools, is unsustainable. The money could easily be distributed to the state schools, lowering the cost for students and the states.

1 Like
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[QUOTE=leadline;109040]I think this is very appropriate.

“
First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

”[/QUOTE]

Oh sweet baby jesus this is just too much, now he’s equating the fall of KP to the rise of national socialism in eastern Europe in the first half of the 20th century. Someone put this school out of its misery before they embarrass the rest of us irreversibly.

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[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;109047]Oh sweet baby jesus this is just too much, now he’s equating the fall of KP to the rise of national socialism in eastern Europe in the first half of the 20th century. Someone put this school out of its misery before they embarrass the rest of us irreversibly.[/QUOTE]

Your missing the whole point of the post but keep thinking that or won’t happen to your job or your school.

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No, that quote is not even close to appropriate.

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[QUOTE=50thState;109063]No, that quote is not even close to appropriate.[/QUOTE]

It so is, first they came for Kings Point, then they came for the Jones Act, next they came for the inland industry finally they came for the offshore. Keep playing there came and all of you who post on here will be crying like school girls with a skinned knee why you no longer have a job.

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Yawn…stretch…grab pointy stick and direct outwardly.

OK assholes…ALL of you.

First you KP lovers - stop it. Don’t play into the haters hands. Anything you say which can be construed as having the slightest hint of elitism will be met with a brutal condemnation both towards your school and you personally. It’s great to have school spirit but this forum does not share your loyality. You can not win here. Go to Service Academy forum for all your ring knocking needs. The only way for you to maintain civil discourse here is to humbly acknowledge that you were lucky enough to get into a Federal School which you had to work your ass off to stay in. If you are a graduate working in the industry, acknowlege the other fine mates who came up via a different path. Only then will you gain credibility here.

Second - You KP haters. If you hate KP, stick to hating the institution, not the midshipmen. Whether or not KP remains open is not about the Kids attending. If you must attack them personally, do it because they are are jerks, not because they attend a school you would like to see morph into something else. Now be honest - you ARE just a bit jealous that KPers can get a 4 year degree for free. I get that. Hell, I wish my school was free. But it’s not. Get over it and move on.

I’m reading about 3-4 current threads about KP & KP cadet bashing and it’s getting tiring. When I get in the industry, I expect I’ll be working with mariners from all sorts of backgrounds. End of the day only 2 things matter - 1) Can you do your job effectively as a team player and 2) Can I count on you to watch your shipmates back when the SHTF? Answers yes to both and I’ll buy you a beer in port regardless of where you’re from.

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[QUOTE=c.captain;109033]This is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT! There is no way whatsoever that having a USMMA and the survival of the Jones Act are in anyway linked. The Jones Act survives because shipowners with Jones Act fleets are very powerful and have a strong lobby on their side. Companies like Crowley, Saltchuk Resources, Matson, Edison Chouest, Hornbeck, Kirby only are what they are because of the protectionism in the Act and they ain’t about to let it die. KP plays no part whatsoever in these companies being successful and thriving and anyone attempting to somehow say that they need KP is more than just laughable!

[B]It is a pity that I have such a busy day planned and little time to blast back at people like KPGulfer, UniBlab, Nelson’s Blood and yourself with your asinine statements and pathetic attempts to justify the continued funding of that farcical and no longer justifiable institution![/B][/QUOTE]

Surely it doesn’t take too long to simply google your next picture/video and paste your same old banter underneath it. Come c.captain, I’m sure you can “find the time”.

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[QUOTE=Jetryder223;109077]Yawn…stretch…grab pointy stick and direct outwardly.

OK assholes…ALL of you.

First you KP lovers - stop it. Don’t play into the haters hands. Anything you say which can be construed as having the slightest hint of elitism will be met with a brutal condemnation both towards your school and you personally. It’s great to have school spirit but this forum does not share your loyality. You can not win here. Go to Service Academy forum for all your ring knocking needs. The only way for you to maintain civil discourse here is to humbly acknowledge that you were luckly enough to get into a Federal School which you had to work your ass off to stay in. If you are a graduate working in the industry, acknowlege the other fine mates who came up via a different path. Only then will you gain credibility here.

Second - You KP haters. If you hate KP, stick to hating the institution, not the midshipmen. Whether or not KP remains open is not about the Kids attending. If you must attack them personally, do it because they are are jerks, not because they attend a school you would like to see morph into something else. Now be honest - you ARE just a bit jealous that KPers can get a 4 year degree for free. I get that. Hell, I wish my school was free. But it’s not. Get over it and move on.

I’m reading about 3-4 current threads about KP & KP cadet bashing and it’s getting tiring. When I get in the industry, I expect I’ll be working with mariners from all sorts of backgrounds. End of the day only 2 things matter - 1) Can you do your job effectively as a team player and 2) Can I count on you to watch your shipmates back when the SHTF? Answers yes to both and I’ll buy you a beer in port regardless of where you’re from.[/QUOTE]

100% agree with everything you said, great post. I can understand people wanting KP to be shut down or at least change, I completely agree that it is a mess and the people running it are wasting tax dollars. I would be in complete agreement if they simply started charging a tuition, that would at least give people the excuse of wasted tax dollars to hate KP, even though there are much bigger and worse ways the gov’t is wasting tax dollars. My biggest gripe with most of the KP bashing on here is that it revolves around the discussion that all KPers are worthless mariners who contribute nothing to the industry, and simply because most people on this forum agree, it seems as though it has turned to fact and not opinion. Kings Point has plenty of shit wrong with it, and it is definitely out dated, but that is no way the fault of the midshipmen now attending (a favorite target of KP haters) or 99% of the graduates that have nothing to do with the alumni association or their washington dc partners.

I honestly had no idea that hate for KP was this bad. I mean while on sea term and when I started my job I always got the usual KP sucks, you bunch of spoiled brats sarcastic comments from a select few, but always took them with a smile and ended up being good buds with the men who said it. You’ve got to be able to take a joke and have tough skin out here to survive, if not you won’t last long. It’s unfortunate if everyone that I sail with has the same sentiment towards me and the others on my boat from kings point that most on gcaptain do, because I personally have nothing but respect for the people I sail with that are good mariners. That is the way I choose to judge mariners, not by the academy they attended. I’ve never looked at a fellow mariners work ethic or lack their of, and immediately made a dumb assumption as to what academy he/she must have gone to, hell I barely even knew who went where for the longest time, I never asked because it never mattered to me. I don’t take all of these posts too seriously because while there is an overwhelming amount of members on this forum that love to get their KP bashing in, I have yet meet someone that is so openly against KP at my company or when I sailed on sea term. So either the men that I’ve sailed with on sea term were scared to talk about how they really felt in front of a lowly cadet, and the members of my privately owned company that has no KP alum anywhere near the top were too scared to say what they really felt to a brand new graduate on his first hitch, or everyone on this forum, which makes up a tiny portion the actual workforce offshore, is really the minority, and not the majority.

I came on here because I’m a member of several sports forums and thoroughly enjoy talking with others who share the same interests I do. I was excited to come on here and share stories and opinions with my fellow mariners, have a few laughs, and of course some heated discussion, however I know for a fact that because I am simply from KP and don’t sit by and promote the hate being spewed about my school’s midshipmen and graduates, that will never happen on a regular basis. Instead I will have to read countless posts by people who have never met me telling me how spoiled I am and how I suck as a mariner.

Had high hopes when I logged on last night, now not so much. Its a shame.

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Ouch… People getting outright mean today! Need more fiber? :slight_smile:

Idea that KP is the very lynchpin of human survival seems like a stretch to me…

Domino theory…? The Communists will be in Hawaii next month unless we protect South Vietnam…? If KP closes they will take your job away next…?

Be nice. If KP closed I don’t think it would even make the papers except the “Great Neck Gazzette”.

Have to agree that Jones Act shippers and unions are driving the protection right now… KP isn’t even at the table… I think it’s like saying that retiring Duke’s mascot would end all college basketball nationwide.

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[QUOTE=KPGulfer;109080]Had high hopes when I logged on last night, now not so much. Its a shame.[/QUOTE]

High hopes for what exactly? You would find this forum filled with sycophant cheerleaders for your old sod? If that is what you were expecting, then you obviously didn’t read a single GODDAMNED thing before shooting your big bazoo off here!

As far as shames go SIR…the greatest shame is that over $80M goes to graduate maybe 200 USMMA graduates every year when that same money could graduate over 1200 state academy students with exactly the same degrees and licenses or fund the training of literally thousands of other worthy seafaring maritime professionals wanting to upgrade their credentials!

btw, I think you spelled your username wrong…supposed to be KPGolfer, correct?

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[QUOTE=c.captain;109090]High hopes for what exactly? You would find this forum filled with sycophant cheerleaders for your old sod? If that is what you were expecting, then you obviously didn’t read a single GODDAMNED thing before shooting your big bazoo off here!

As far as shames go SIR…the greatest shame is that over $80M goes to graduate maybe 200 USMMA graduates every year when that same money could graduate over 1200 state academy students with exactly the same degrees and licenses or fund the training of literally thousands of other worthy seafaring maritime professionals wanting to upgrade their credentials!

btw, I think you spelled your username wrong…supposed to be KPGolfer, correct?[/QUOTE]

High hopes for actual discussion on a positive note, not blind bashing of mariners who are not the reason why KP is the way it is. The academy I graduated from never crossed my mind when coming onto this site and signing up. I first did because I had a question about my license last year. I signed on again last night to look at a thread my coworker was looking into, when I realized I’d actually like to be a part of the forum and perhaps help out people and give any information/knowledge I knew to them as others did to me when I was first on here. Then I stumbled upon the mass hatred parade of KP and now I am here.

I understand your hatred for the gov’t wasting taxpayers dollars on KP, and I agree that it should institute tuition or be shut down, I have never once said KP is essential to the Jones act, or that KP is the gem of the maritime academies, when it comes to sailing after graduation, every academy is equal. Kings Point does waste taxpayer’s dollars, however there are much larger and worse ways the gov’t is wasting the tax money we all pay. A single KPer that completes 4 years at USMMA costs a taxpayer less $4 for that entire 4 years. Like I said, I agree, that is a wasted amount to a certain extent, however there are much larger problems in this industry and with the gov’t spending our tax money in general.

And at the end of the day it is not the midshipmens’ or 99% of the graduates fault the academy is the way it is. You can thank our gov’t for that. I went to KP to become a mariner, just like the majority of KPers did…am I to blame for being applying to a college that was open and accepted me? Is it my fault that they offer such a great and useful education and license for such a small cost? No, it isn’t.

Like I said in one of my very first posts. There were without a doubt a certain amount of dickheads at KP that thought they were special because they got to role play like they were actually in the military, and I’m sure that feeling of elitism and being special simply because of their class ring, but in now way was that the majority of midshipmen at KP. Most of us couldn’t stand those kids, and did nothing but mock and laugh at them. Every academy has its assholes, not just KP.

Not a bad joke…I cracked a smile. That is the type of tongue in cheek razzing I actually get a kick out of and enjoy. Its too bad that you have to get so personal with your insults and attacks.

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[QUOTE=KPGulfer;109096]I. A single KPer that completes 4 years at USMMA costs a taxpayer less $4 for that entire 4 years. Like I said, I agree, that is a wasted amount to a certain extent, however there are much larger problems in this industry and with the gov’t spending our tax money in general.[/QUOTE]

Might want to check that math again. There are 130MM US tax returns filed every year. Of that, only 100MM actually pay tax. So USMMA turns out 200 mariners a year at $80MM/yr. So - 80MM/200= 400k each. 400k/100MM= 0.40 cents/graduate. So less than a half penny each. Does not sound like a lot until you add all the nickles and dimes from all the thousands of other government programs taxpayers need to fund. It adds up. Oh BTW, my 4 years at a State academy would only cost each taxpayer .08 cents, an even BETTER deal don’t you agree?

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[QUOTE=Jetryder223;109100]Might want to check that math again. There are 130MM US tax returns filed every year. Of that, only 100MM actually pay tax. So USMMA turns out 200 mariners a year at $80MM/yr. So - 80MM/200= 400k each. 400k/100MM= 0.40 cents/graduate. So less than a half penny each. Does not sound like a lot until you add all the nickles and dimes from all the thousands of other government programs taxpayers need to fund. It adds up. Oh BTW, my 4 years at a State academy would only cost each taxpayer .08 cents, an even BETTER deal don’t you agree?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the correction, pretty much did all of the math quickly and off of very high estimates. I was way off! :smiley:

And I absolutely agree that the state maritime academies are a MUCH BETTER deal for the taxpayers.

I know all of the nickels and dimes add up to millions, but with the way people post on here, you’d think KP graduates and the midshipmen still attending were stealing thousands from each of them on a daily basis.

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This reminds me of the age old academy vs. hawsepipe debate. You have your boneheads and rock stars from both. Just like you have graduates from all maritime academies that are pretentious a holes and those that are good people and good mariners. KP is no exception. Some of the best mariners I have sailed with were from KP. So we’re some of the worst. I could say the same for (insert academy name here).

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I have no problem paying a dollar per year for KPs entire graduating class. Some of the other things my money goes to, not so much. But that is probably because I am biased towards the maritime industry.

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[QUOTE=dredgeboater;109106]I have no problem paying a dollar per year for KPs entire graduating class. Some of the other things my money goes to, not so much. But that is probably because I am biased towards the maritime industry.[/QUOTE]

Precisely. While it may be a waste to some to pay $1 per year for KP, there are much larger amounts being removed from their paychecks going to much more ridiculous things.

Like $4.5 BILLION on wasted on improper food stamp payments

or

$1 BILLION wasted on the gov’t simply overpaying for products and services when they don’t have to.

http://www.nrcc.org/thewastelist/

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pray, who is “blindly bashing” anyone including Captain Kenneth R. Force, USMS? I can see my target quite clearly besides it isn’t the stoopid little midshippies who are the problem.,they have nothing to do with the ridiculous backstabbing, strongarming, pilfering and other corruption in the village! They are only naive participants to the spectacle including when they sing and dance for the gala USMMA Marching Band annual Beat Meat Retreat produced by the maestro CKRF himself.

What I attack is the institution itself and those behind the grand facade. I roundly attack what is has become versus what it is supposed to be. I attack the horrible economy of the place.

I understand your hatred for the gov’t wasting taxpayers dollars on KP, and I agree that it should institute tuition or be shut down, I have never once said KP is essential to the Jones act, or that KP is the gem of the maritime academies, when it comes to sailing after graduation, every academy is equal. Kings Point does waste taxpayer’s dollars, however there are much larger and worse ways the gov’t is wasting the tax money we all pay. A single KPer that completes 4 years at USMMA costs a taxpayer less $4 for that entire 4 years. Like I said, I agree, that is a wasted amount to a certain extent, however there are much larger problems in this industry and with the gov’t spending our tax money in general.

Since your math has already been stop full of holes I need not point that out again however I don’t care if my contribution is .000001cents annually if that money is wasted. Any waste is bad and our government floats on a sea of wasted money. There are a million worse wastes than KP for the taxpayer but THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE A SINGLE GODDAMNED THING! Waste is waste and it is all bad no matter not puny.

And at the end of the day it is not the midshipmens’ or 99% of the graduates fault the academy is the way it is. You can thank our gov’t for that. I went to KP to become a mariner, just like the majority of KPers did…am I to blame for being applying to a college that was open and accepted me? Is it my fault that they offer such a great and useful education and license for such a small cost? No, it isn’t.

I thoroughly dispute your claim that the “majority” of attendees at KP went to the school because they wanted to be mariners! I doubt less that 5% even had a microscopic clue as to what the US merchant marine and maritime industry even was before they accepted the offer to attend. I hold that the vast majority went because it is 1) one of the US service academies 2) it is a path toward getting into the armed forces and 3) it is free

Like I said in one of my very first posts. There were without a doubt a certain amount of dickheads at KP that thought they were special because they got to role play like they were actually in the military, and I’m sure that feeling of elitism and being special simply because of their class ring, but in now way was that the majority of midshipmen at KP. Most of us couldn’t stand those kids, and did nothing but mock and laugh at them. Every academy has its assholes, not just KP.

yeah, but KP breeds them like nowhere else my friend!

Not a bad joke…I cracked a smile. That is the type of tongue in cheek razzing I actually get a kick out of and enjoy. Its too bad that you have to get so personal with your insults and attacks.

they’re only personal if you chose to make it so. I know very few members here personally, so how can any of my barbs be “personal”? Me thinks you have a very thin skin for a mariner?

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[QUOTE=c.captain;109112]pray, who is “blindly bashing” anyone including Captain Kenneth R. Force, USMS? I can see my target quite clearly besides it isn’t the stoopid little midshippies who are the problem.,they have nothing to do with the ridiculous backstabbing, strongarming, pilfering and other corruption in the village! They are only naive participants to the spectacle including when they sing and dance for the gala USMMA Marching Band annual Beat Meat Retreat produced by the maestro CKRF himself.

What I attack is the institution itself and those behind the grand facade. I roundly attack what is has become versus what it is supposed to be. I attack the horrible economy of the place.

Since your math has already been stop full of holes I need not point that out again however I don’t care if my contribution is .000001cents annually if that money is wasted. Any waste is bad and our government floats on a sea of wasted money. There are a million worse wastes than KP for the taxpayer but THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE A SINGLE GODDAMNED THING! Waste is waste and it is all bad no matter not puny.

I thoroughly dispute your claim that the “majority” of attendees at KP went to the school because they wanted to be mariners! I doubt less that 5% even had a microscopic clue as to what the US merchant marine and maritime industry even was before they accepted the offer to attend. I hold that the vast majority went because it is 1) one of the US service academies 2) it is a path toward getting into the armed forces and 3) it is free

yeah, but KP breeds them like nowhere else my friend!

they’re only personal if you chose to make it so. I know very few members here personally, so how can any of my barbs be “personal”? Me thinks you have a very thin skin for a mariner?[/QUOTE]

You attack not only the institution, but midshipmen and graduates who have absolutely nothing to do with how the academy is run and its economic ways. If you were simply attacking those who run KP and saying how the place needs to overhauled and changed then I would happily sit by and agree with you. However when you use pictures and videos of people you’ve never met, and call them fags, losers, and countless other insults, at an extremely constant rate, its gets to be over the top and annoying.

My math was corrected AS BEING TOO HIGH A COST PER STUDENT, not the other way around, so of course you wouldn’t want to point that out again. And once again, like I’ve said before, I agree that even though the amount is small, it is still a waste. But that is not the students or the majority of graduates’ fault, it is that of a select few alumni and an incompetent group of politicians.

Most of the people I knew went to KP because they planned on sailing when they graduated because it was a great job that paid very well. A small portion went there because they wanted to go active duty afterwards and they weren’t accepted to the real service academies, and an even smaller group (out of the hundreds I knew about 5) didn’t plan on sailing at all, or were looking to take gov’t jobs upon graduation. Sorry, but I am going to go with my actual experience in being at the academy not too long ago as a more reliable source than your guessing.

It’s funny that all of the posts from non KPers that say they have actually worked with KP grads and that they were, for the most part, great workers and mariners, goes unnoticed and ignored. You can keep telling yourself what you want to believe is true c.captain, but the fact remains that all of the academies put out good and bad mariners, non of which at a higher rate than the other. It is and always will be the individual itself that decides what type of mariner they are, not where they went to school.

You posted a picture earlier of an overweight girl going through indoc and went on to insult her numerous ways in over the top fashion simply because of her weight. Perhaps we find personal attacks to have a different definition, because I find that post you made to be a very shameful personal attack on an innocent girl.

I have very thick skin, growing up the way I did required that, I can easily sit back and enjoy a good insult thrown at me with a smile. Some are quite good and creative, but when people who have obviously dealt with harsh criticism and insults their entire life and who are not around to defend themselves are insulted for no good reason, that is when it gets under my skin.

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Great attack and counter attack gentlemen… Made for a good coffee break. Now get back to the bridge or engine room for a few hours and think of some more witty body slams :).

I will be at the second mate’s table pretending not to be listening…

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I am a Fifth Generation Merchant Mariner. I chose to sail my entire career where as my brother chose to move shoreside after sailing as Master for quite a while.

Now, I realize that I have worked with / around a small number of KP’ers but there is a reason that when you introduce a KP’er to a friend / co-worker that usually you must add the statement the He / She is from KP but they are a good Guy / Gal.

Whenever there are more than a few KP’ers in Upper Management there will be a higher percent of KP Grads working there. As I have stated several times, the KP Alumni Association is (or maybe now was) something to be proud of as they take care of their own.

In my years of Sailing and basically growing up and around this industry, I can say that most of the KP’ers that I have known had plans to go shoreside as fast as possible and by saying shoreside this does not always mean staying in the industry. Most of the KP “Office” workers that I have met either still have their original license or maybe upgraded once.

This forum has a pretty good cross section of Mariners and from what I have read here come from all aspects of the industry, the opinions stated here come from years of experience. Now, I am not going to say that I agree with all that is posted here and for that matter a couple of members have really got under my skin with some of their smart ass posts. But and this is a BIG but, I am in total agreement with what has been posted about KP.

The idea that the closing of KP will lead the way to ending the Jones Act is just plan stupid and goes to show just how KP’ers feel about the rest of the industry and how we can not survive without them.