Hello All,
I am trying to obtain an actual TOAR. Does anyone know were I can find it. I work on the western rivers and work with a few good captains willing to steer me on my off watch I have a 500 ton and have been working on towing vessels for about 3 yrs I am told if I complete this TOAR I can get a Mate of Towing license.
Any help is appreiciated
Captpablo
Try River School in Memphis, www.riverschool.com they should be able to set you up with the book. If you hold a 500T, the TOAR requirements will seem pretty darn elementary.
Richie
m/v General Jackson
Nashville, Tennessee
[quote=captpablo;15879]Hello All,
I am trying to obtain an actual TOAR. Does anyone know were I can find it. I work on the western rivers and work with a few good captains willing to steer me on my off watch I have a 500 ton and have been working on towing vessels for about 3 yrs I am told if I complete this TOAR I can get a Mate of Towing license.
Any help is appreiciated
Captpablo[/quote]
The information about completing the TOAR and the TOAR paperwork are contained in NVIC 04-01.
You will want to read the instructions and all the TOARS and print the TOAR(s) that applies to your situation.This is the link you need.Good Luck…
Hey you guys are awsome thanks so much. It was right under my nose. I even went to that very site on the NVIC 04-01 and didnt see it but sure enough there it was. I hope I’m better at navigating the western rivers than I am at these computers. Thanks again all.
captpablo
[quote=captpablo;15911]Hey you guys are awsome thanks so much. It was right under my nose. I even went to that very site on the NVIC 04-01 and didnt see it but sure enough there it was. I hope I’m better at navigating the western rivers than I am at these computers. Thanks again all.
captpablo[/quote]
Note that what is in the NVIC is intended to be guidance on the tasks that have to be part of the TOAR, it isn’t by itself a complete TOAR. See 46 CFR 11.304(h) (formerly 46 CFR 10.304(h)) for the full requirements on what additional information has to be in a TOAR. Mosty notably, the NVIC guidance lacks the mariner-specific information specified in the CFR.
If interested in obtaining the actual endorsement I’m working with a group of mariners that offer an accelerated class for obtaining your T.O.A.R.
The class is held on an actual tugboat were the student will have the opportunity to run the tug and get written off on the demonstrative criteria as well as get written off on the classroom criteria.
Getting a TOAR aboard an actual tugboat?..what’re u crazy?!?
We don’t need no stinkin’ tugboat.
Just watch it get done once and 30 days latter-SHAZAM…you’re a tug driver!
They outta just make a video tape.
JCC-- Do you have any further information (contact info, dates, etc. . .)?
[QUOTE=seadog!;31521]Getting a TOAR aboard an actual tugboat?..what’re u crazy?!?
We don’t need no stinkin’ tugboat.
Just watch it get done once and 30 days latter-SHAZAM…you’re a tug driver!
They outta just make a video tape.[/QUOTE]
I’m amazed how the towing industry went from “self-clensing” to “check the box in 30 days”. Of the 39 years I’ve gone to sea, (not counting commercial fishing as a child) I spent 25 years in the towing and salvage industry. In that time, I’ve seen many captains and mates have their a$$es handed to them on the tow line. Lack of seamanship and towing skills dosen’t discriminate between between ltd, unlimited, hawsepipers and academy grads.
[QUOTE=injunear;31546]I’m amazed how the towing industry went from “self-clensing” to “check the box in 30 days”. Of the 39 years I’ve gone to sea, (not counting commercial fishing as a child) I spent 25 years in the towing and salvage industry. In that time, I’ve seen many captains and mates have their a$$es handed to them on the tow line. Lack of seamanship and towing skills dosen’t discriminate between between ltd, unlimited, hawsepipers and academy grads.[/QUOTE]
**IMHO…the “accelerated attitude of poof your a tugboater” will eventually rise up and “bite the industry in the ass”…should begin to happen any minute now!!
I’m thinking this will be referred to as the “30 day BLUNDER” program!
Forget the video tape…now they have the [I][B]“BRAtt”[/B][/I] ([B]B[/B]urchett [B]R[/B]obert [B]A[/B]llan training tug).
[B]TOAR Books signed, by appointment aboard your vessel to demonstrate proficiency U/W.[/B]
USCGTOAR@gmail.com by appointment U/W your towing vessel, worldwide service available.
A completed TOAR does not a tugboater make. The TOAR is an entry-level assessment and it is important to keep it in that context. It’s just a hurdle one must leap to get into the towing industry.
Where was the outcry about licenses crossing over prior to NVIC 04-01? There wasn’t any, because if you got the opportunity (as I did) you just did it and learned the traditional skills the traditional way and eventually you called yourself a tugboater.
As a DE I sign off TOARs if the standard is met. It’s just a statement attesting that I saw someone perform a task to my standard once. It is NOT my endorsement of their present or future skills as a tugboater, and my responsibility for that person ends right there.
Come to Seattle. Jump on a tug with me and I’ll sign you off if you can meet my standard. If you can’t, I’ll train you to that standard and you’ll get another shot at the assessment. Eventually you’ll get it, and then you’ll be that much closer to learning to become a tugboater.
sERIOUSLY? i WOULD PAY YOU FOR YOUR TIME! SERIOUSLY I AM.![QUOTE=dougpine;56885]A completed TOAR does not a tugboater make. The TOAR is an entry-level assessment and it is important to keep it in that context. It’s just a hurdle one must leap to get into the towing industry.
Where was the outcry about licenses crossing over prior to NVIC 04-01? There wasn’t any, because if you got the opportunity (as I did) you just did it and learned the traditional skills the traditional way and eventually you called yourself a tugboater.
As a DE I sign off TOARs if the standard is met. It’s just a statement attesting that I saw someone perform a task to my standard once. It is NOT my endorsement of their present or future skills as a tugboater, and my responsibility for that person ends right there.
Come to Seattle. Jump on a tug with me and I’ll sign you off if you can meet my standard. If you can’t, I’ll train you to that standard and you’ll get another shot at the assessment. Eventually you’ll get it, and then you’ll be that much closer to learning to become a tugboater.[/QUOTE]
Send me a private message please.
[QUOTE=dougpine;56885]A completed TOAR does not a tugboater make. The TOAR is an entry-level assessment and it is important to keep it in that context. It’s just a hurdle one must leap to get into the towing industry.
Where was the outcry about licenses crossing over prior to NVIC 04-01? [/QUOTE]
The outcry was evidenced by the Mauvilla, sunset LTD, Bay Titan, Ohio R allission. What were you thinking? Did industry (or profit) cloud your judgement?
unfortunately, it takes a loss of life to wake up the sensibilities of the masses. the industry WAS alerted. Too bad politics got in the way!
I’d be very interested to know: Out of all those incidents how many crossover licenses were on board. My guess is a big zero. My guess is they were career unlicensed-to-OUTV guys, all alone on watch, fatigued, in violation of work hour rules on undermanned vessels.
Accidents happen, and the towing sector will begin to rack up accidents soon enough involving TOAR holders. The TOAR will be the only additional factor in contrast to past accidents. Since the TOAR is essentially meaningless, until the true contributing factors are addressed nothing has changed. I believe that future accident statistics will support this point if view.
Just sayin’.
[QUOTE=dougpine;58205]I’d be very interested to know: Out of all those incidents how many crossover licenses were on board. My guess is a big zero. My guess is they were career unlicensed-to-OUTV guys, all alone on watch, fatigued, in violation of work hour rules on undermanned vessels.
Accidents happen, and the towing sector will begin to rack up accidents soon enough involving TOAR holders. The TOAR will be the only additional factor in contrast to past accidents. Since the TOAR is essentially meaningless, until the true contributing factors are addressed nothing has changed. I believe that future accident statistics will support this point if view.
Just sayin’.[/QUOTE]
Why do you conveniently ignore the issue of the reason why the TOAR process was instituted in the first place.
The ‘future accidents’ will be representative of the current TOAR, 30 day wonder, crossover regime you describe.
The guts of the accreditation process you wish for (or Pine for!) were thrown out by the system we now have.
Where is the reality that the original TOAR and TWO year training program were washed out? I am a realist. I KNOW that I could have never been certified ‘competent’ or judged (like you do) in a ‘trip.’ Having seen (felt) a couple maritime graduates come up to me and have them state that “Their license” is superior to me, so why don’t I just rubber stamp their TOAR. Simple… I will NOT stoop to this 30 day wonder shit.
That you are a willing (PAID… by your request for a PM) part of the process is an indication of the corruption of the process!
My feeling is that this program takes about two years to accomplish… While actually WORKING on a tug, and learning the craft.
The idea that the trade can be learned on a simulator or the 'check off ’ list is rediculous.
I don’t understand the question. What issue am I ignoring?
We obviously do not see the TOAR in the same light. To me, the TOAR is a record that a person has, most likely at a very basic level, completed several assessments. A completed TOAR has nothing to do with one’s ability to be a competent towing officer. All this fuss about the 30 day wonder escapes me. So what if you have a towing license, fresh from NMC? What makes that any different from having a fresh non-towing license? A license doesn’t mean anything but that you’ve passed a series of assessments and exams. Do we get all freaked out when a freshly minted mate gets on an OSV, or a ferry, or any other non-towing vessel? No, but as masters we know we’re in for some sleepless nights before we cut that mate loose. Why is it different on a towing vessel? As a master, I’m not going to cut a new mate of towing loose before I’m satisfied he or she can do the job.
As to a corrupt process, I’d only point out that just about everyone who signs off ANY assessment (TOAR, OICNW, RFPNW, etc) is being paid to do so, either at a school or as part of one’s duties aboard ship. I see no corruption in that process. We are permitted to use our skills and experience to enhance our bottom line.
Becoming a competent tugboater takes time. But do you really want to cling to a specific period of time? Two years, really? Some people take five years. Some take 30 days. I’m not talking Chief Mate or Master competencies here, by the way. I’m talking entry level mate. That is the context in which the TOAR is framed, flawed as it is in that pursuit.
I’d suggest that if, in my judgement, you demonstrated competence in one or more TOAR assessments during a single trip then I’d sign them off. What’s wrong with that? Either you can perform the skill or you can’t. 30 days, two years, they’re just arbitrary timeframes that are basically meaningless at the individual level. Some guys are indeed ready in 30 days to stand a watch alone. Some are ready in a week, or less, especially if they have years of watchstanding experience already. There are too many variables to box everyone into an arbitrary timeframe. Some guys stand watches alone who should never have been allowed to do so, period. I’d also point out that becoming a competent mate on any other type of vessel takes varying amounts of time, per individual.
Tugboats have been under the microscope because of a history of accidents that highlighted what was once a “wild west” segment of the industry, and the move toward assessment and now the coming Subchapter M inspections are an effort to close out that chapter, just as that “wild west” culture has and continues to be pushed out of the GOM. The original reason for handing out OUTV and OSV licenses was so that they could be taken away. That was a vast improvement over the prior status quo.
Thirty day wonder or two year wonder or any kind of wonder aside, it is eventually the responsibility of 1. The company, and 2. The vessel Master to ensure that the officers on board are competent to perform their duties. It certainly isn’t up to the Coast Guard beyond them testing and administratively approving that person to be qualified to apply for the job.
With regard to simulation I am, in a general sense, in agreement with you up to a point. There are many skills that can be learned quite successfully in simulation. Entry level tractor tug skills training, for example, has been very successful using simulation as has been training escort tug maneuvering. The key to quality simulation lies not in all the computers and fancy graphics but rather in the competence and skills of the simulation instructor and the simulator operator. But most importantly, it is what the student takes away from simulation that truly matters.
The vast majority of the TOARs are well-suited for simulation however the maneuvering assessments present challenges. You certainly cannot assess someone on making and breaking tow in a simulator, at this point in time. Personally, I’m hesitant to use the simulator for TOAR maneuvering assessment as I would much rather do those on an actual vessel. But let’s be realistic, “Maneuver light boat” can easily be done in a simulator. You know within seconds whether or not the candidate has a clue.
Two of the major failings of the TOAR assessments developed by the USCG are the vagueness of each one and the “all or nothing” approach to the list. The development of actual criteria is left to the individual Designated Examiner and each DE has his or her own standards. The TOAR, in my opinion, was broken from day one because it really needs to be a stepped process that is more representative of an officer’s progression in the industry. Having a green apprentice mate do some of the maneuvering assessments that are required is absolutely ridiculous and those are the ones that get pencil whipped. All of the complex assessments should be separated into another TOAR that one must complete prior to being issued a Master of Towing license. But, it is what it is.
It is important to point out that there is confusion out there regarding what assessments actually are, and what the role of the assessor actually is. That is why the USCG wants assessors to have training in assessment. Assessment is not training. Training is not assessment. Training takes time. Assessment, properly done, takes only the amount of time that a competent qualified mariner would take to perform the task. I just don’t believe that every single trainee needs two years to get to the point where they are ready to be assessed.
My goal as a DE is first and foremost to weed out the wannabes who are demonstrably unable to perform to my expectations as an assessor. My goal is certainly not to churn out a bunch of completed TOARs. So far I’ve completed about seven or eight TOARs since I was issued my DE letter (I think it was in 2007 or 2008). So it’s no major source of revenue for me and so far all of the TOARs I’ve been paid to sign off have been through my work at PMI. I’ve never been paid to sign off a TOAR outside of my place of employment. I don’t really pine for any great lineup of anxious TOAR wannabes. That being said, there are many people out there who, by asking, are inferring that they believe that they are ready to be assessed as to their TOAR however they cannot find a DE to assess them. As a DE, I am happy to assess anyone who asks. I’ll not apologize for being willing to do so, for profit or for free. There is no guarantee they’ll walk out with anything signed off. If they do perform, I have to sign them off. If they don’t perform, I cannot sign them off. At that point, if they want to, we’ll then switch to training, which is a completely different process. Lather, rinse, repeat. Where is the problem?