Very true about the radars. Our Sperry Bridgemasters are great only when tuned properly by someone who actually knows how to ise it.
You must have never been on a US Navy ship. Their navigation radars are generally a generation behind. I was on an cruiser that still had an early 80’s Raytheon radar. Some still use small boat radars to navigate. They might be able to track a missile at a thousand miles but can’t pickup a buoy at a 1/2 mile.
[QUOTE=Pilot;96971]You must have never been on a US Navy ship. Their navigation radars are generally a generation behind. I was on an cruiser that still had an early 80’s Raytheon radar. Some still use small boat radars to navigate. They might be able to track a missile at a thousand miles but can’t pickup a buoy at a 1/2 mile.[/QUOTE]
Yeah well, not fer nothing but I’ve been on Destroyers, Amphibs, Oilers, LCUs and YTBs as well The radars that KSEA managed to stingily part money with to put in THEIR boats were FAR from State of the Art, I ASSURE you and I somehow managed to keep me and the barge off the bottom and away from things that would damage both. Just sayin’
[QUOTE=Jolly Tar;96973]Yeah well, not fer nothing but I’ve been on Destroyers, Amphibs, Oilers, LCUs and YTBs as well The radars that KSEA managed to stingily part money with to put in THEIR boats were FAR from State of the Art, I ASSURE you and I somehow managed to keep me and the barge off the bottom and away from things that would damage both. Just sayin’[/QUOTE]
Yes,but when you see something on your radar you don’ t understand how do you figure it out? You go to the chart. I mean if I am Mid-Atlantic in shitty weather and I have a strong radar return ahead on the display I don’t think" Ah ha! Atlantis!" I think a band of rain showers. That’s because Atlantis is not on the chart. If it did turn out to be Atlantis I’d likely go aground on it.
How many times since the navigation by GPS has someone gone to the chart to determine the nature of a radar return and had to deal with an error as large as 8 miles? Maybe never. How many times have things like other vessels, sea return, showers, rain, debris, ice, false echos that look like land been resolved by checking the chart?
K.C.
You can flip the " enhancement " switch and pick up a partially submerged 5 gal can… I know, I’ve done it. No, this was not a digital radar problem, it was a problem with rectal navigation mode in the on position.
[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);96979]You can flip the " enhancement " switch and pick up a partially submerged 5 gal can… I know, I’ve done it. No, this was not a digital radar problem, it was a problem with rectal navigation mode in the on position.[/QUOTE]
What do you do at night when you pick up a partially submerged 5 gal can? Just assume it’s a reef and back both engine full astern?
K.C.
As I have oft said, the USN under men like Bill Halsey was a “FIGHTING FLEET” that cared nothing for niceties of proper naval etiquette or sensitivity towards one’s shipmates. It was about “KILL JAPS, KILL JAPS, KILL MORE JAPS” His men steamed the largest body of ships ever assembled by man and used proper navigation and seamanship while doing it
Could you imagine the out cry if a sign like this promoting the killing of Taliban was put up in some FOB in Afghanistan? It just makes you wonder if we could have won World War II with today’s modern media environment?
[QUOTE=c.captain;96981]As I have oft said, the USN under men like Bill Halsey was a “FIGHTING FLEET” that cared nothing for niceties of proper naval etiquette or sensitivity towards one’s shipmates. It was about “KILL JAPS, KILL JAPS, KILL MORE JAPS” His men steamed the largest body of ships ever assembled by man and used proper navigation and seamanship while doing it
][/QUOTE]
Yes, but merchant mariners on the other hand are a bunch of fucking Albert Einsteins. This can be easily verified by reading some threads here.
K.C.
Well I guess if you can’t navigate and apply some basic seamanship and common sense that’s exactly what you do. Ie: if I’m in a coastal area that is known to have reefs do I the run up and check out a radar contact with the bow of my ship? Or slow, turn out and verify the information? It’s not the bow it the Indian…
[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);96985]Well I guess if you can’t navigate and apply some basic seamanship and common sense that’s exactly what you do. Ie: if I’m in a coastal area that is known to have reefs do I the run up and check out a radar contact with the bow of my ship? Or slow, turn out and verify the information? It’s not the bow it the Indian…[/QUOTE]
Common sense only works on common problems. It is uncommon for a well known reef to be charted 8 miles in error… As far as I know this is the only time it’s happened since the use of GPS has become widespread.
K.C.
The area around Tubbataha Reef is not a coastal area know to have reefs. It’s an isolated reef surrounded for miles by water 1000+ meters deep.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;96988]Common sense only works on common problems. It is uncommon for a well known reef to be charted 8 miles in error… As far as I know this is the only time it’s happened since the use of GPS has become widespread.
K.C.[/QUOTE]
what about lookouts MAN?..WHAT ABOUT GODDAMNED LOOKOUTS!
[QUOTE=c.captain;96990]what about lookouts MAN?..WHAT ABOUT GODDAMNED LOOKOUTS![/QUOTE]
How many times have you made a navigation error as large as 8 miles or encountered a chart with an 8 mile error? Probably never. How many times have the lookouts seen clouds and reported land or buoys and reported ships etc etc. Many many times.
We’d all like to believe that if our lookouts reported white caps when the chart showed 1000 meters we’d think ah ha! A geo-rectifying error on my chart!
How many of us are now going to put an AB on the bow swinging the lead in case there is an error in the chart? None of us.
I’m not saying no error was made. I saying I can see how this error might be very difficult for the bridge team to detect and take the proper action.
K.C.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;96983]Yes, but merchant mariners on the other hand are a bunch of fucking Albert Einsteins. This can be easily verified by reading some threads here.
K.C.[/QUOTE]
not me, of course 
Yes, I know the area. Oddly navigated in and around the PI for years with far more daft. It’s all speculation by those that were not there. As we know anything can happen to anyone at any time at sea. Oddly it seems to be happening with more frequency to the USN. If the digital chart was in error that does not excuse the mishap, as we know or should know navigational fixes should be obtained by any means required in order to keep the ship safe. While I’m sure the C/O and any others feel horrible about this, it’s the USN and their practice that ultimately failed. Common sense serves well in all situations, be they common or not, at least I’ve found that to be true in life as well as at sea.
[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);96997]Yes, I know the area. Oddly navigated in and around the PI for years with far more daft. It’s all speculation by those that were not there. As we know anything can happen to anyone at any time at sea. Oddly it seems to be happening with more frequency to the USN. If the digital chart was in error that does not excuse the mishap, as we know or should know navigational fixes should be obtained by any means required in order to keep the ship safe. While I’m sure the C/O and any others feel horrible about this, it’s the USN and their practice that ultimately failed. Common sense serves well in all situations, be they common or not, at least I’ve found that to be true in life as well as at sea.[/QUOTE]
I agree we don’t know what happened. It could be it was clear night, the light was watching properly, the seas calm and the radar painted the reef much as it appears on the chart. On the hand the light might have been out, much of the reef underwater and rain showers, sea clutter and fishing boats confused the radar picture. If it was close to the latter I would guess that about 99.99% of merchant ships would have run up on the reef in a similar situation.
BTW I understand your point about common sense but I’d use the term “good judgement” instead.
K.C.
c.captain’s log supplemental: how many USN ships have navigated through the entire Sulu Sea since say 1898? I would have to say thousands at least and how was it that they did not end up on Toobahaha Reef? Not like the Navee hasn’t known it was there…
[B]WTF? STOOPID SQUIDS![/B]
Perhaps the term " good judgement " is better. But I prefer common sense and basic seamanship. I’ll be the first to say I was very lucky, I’ll also be the first to tell you I checked EVERYTHING two, or three times. I would be up checking a detail or on the bridge in the middle do the night due to a whim, or a “feeling”. More than once the reason to these “feelings” became obvious when I stepped on the bridge. I’d sure like to read the USN’s final report of this incident. Would be very interesting to say the least.
The U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyers USS PORTER collided with an 300,000t DWT oil tanker near the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf. The USS GUARDIAN ran aground high and dry on a reef in the Philippines.
Do they hold Pleasure Craft Certificate of Competencies … found in a Cracker Jack Box !!! Scaring … 
[QUOTE=Topsail;97043]The U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyers USS PORTER collided with an 300,000t DWT oil tanker near the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf. The USS GUARDIAN ran aground high and dry on a reef in the Philippines.
Do they hold Pleasure Craft Certificate of Competencies … found in a Cracker Jack Box !!! Scaring … [/QUOTE]
Topsail, are you showing us you are a little shit with no experience but doesn’t know it - yet?
[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);97026]Perhaps the term " good judgement " is better. But I prefer common sense and basic seamanship. I’ll be the first to say I was very lucky, I’ll also be the first to tell you I checked EVERYTHING two, or three times. I would be up checking a detail or on the bridge in the middle do the night due to a whim, or a “feeling”. More than once the reason to these “feelings” became obvious when I stepped on the bridge. I’d sure like to read the USN’s final report of this incident. Would be very interesting to say the least.[/QUOTE]
I bet there are forum members who recall my advise, namely. when ever you leave the Engine Room ask yourself “What have I forgotten?” This from a WWII Chief Engineer to a KP cadet. Once upon a time there really was a US Merchant Marine Academy.