[QUOTE=btug;48106]…And what makes you think that to get paid here we kiss ass?..is that what you do?..[/QUOTE]
I used the same phrase earlier in a post and shouldn’t have. I sail deep-sea but I’ve got enough time on tugs to have a great deal of respect for what mariners on the tugs, both union and non-union, do professionally.
There is a change in dynamics in the relationship with management however, it is good in some ways and bad in others.
K.C.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;48110] I’ve got enough time on tugs to have a great deal of respect for what mariners on the tugs, both union and non-union, do professionally. [/QUOTE]
I feel the same way. I just don’t understand the mindset that some guys feel they are above the rest, and deserve some ‘extra’ perks. (thus the ambiguous pay levels, benefits and travel [for some??]) Be real. If you weren’t as good as the rest, then you wouldn’t have been promoted. Just as your self worth, all these other guys are working for a wage. I guess you feel superior to the rest of us, and want to ‘get’ something else?
I know a few of the guys at most every company. Most find a ‘home’ and are reluctant to move around. So be it. I’ve only moved 4 times in my career. That’s an average of 7.5 years per company. Not exactly hopping around. but darned if I want to have to spend and extra two months a year on a boat to have equal pay! Maybe I should look at Bouchard to reap (rape) some ‘good pay’? How many guys do you know who left Bouchard to go to your company? Why would they do that? How many guys left your company to go TO Bouchard?
Cal: I just re re re read your post. I do get your point about not wanting to use your paid travel as a quantifier. But how should I feel, since I live local, and DONT need all that travel pay? I would rather have the increase in daily rate. It appears most of my co workers feel the same way too. I get 700 bucks per hitch of ‘travel’ pay. It costs me about 30 bucks to get to NYC. I make a killing. So I should subsidize the guys who choose to live say… in St Louis so they get flown in? That is not right. Now for the kicker. This is for ALL employees at my company. There is not a ‘secret society’ of privilege for the few. That is disgusting.
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Here isa post about the towing industry and unionswritten by a mariner who goes by Kennebec Captain, if I may so bold.
All I can think of as Brian is reading this blog is: “We got these idiots right where we want them… Blind, divided, and they will say yes to ANYTHING we demand!”
Unfortunately the most sad part is the ‘divided’ issue. You all could be SO much better off if you could join forces (as it were) and be united. Didn’t your parents teach you: “you don’t divide your parents?” Well??? Think about it! Do you allow your kids to divide you and your wife while parenting? Or do you stand united and solidly together?
I was a Captain before I came here. I will be a Captain after I leave here, and in all likelihood I have been, or will be YOUR Captain someday! And I will STILL earn more than you in a 1. day, 2. week, 3. year, 4. Lifetime! But you WILL have travel pay!
Good luck!
I have been with the rusty red fleet in norfolk for nearly 4 years and im trying as hard as I can to find another job. Im tired of working on their old worn out junk that can barely run. Everytime you go offshore you feel like you are cheating death. The company doesnt care one iota about their people, and the only way to get ahead it seems is either the good old boy network or brown noseing neither of which I am going to do.
I’ve been trying to follow this discussion but it is VERY difficult.
I’d suggest when comparing union vs non union in any industry everyone put all their cards on the table.
Daily rate or annual salary, over time rate, paid training, travel pay, cost of health/ life insurance, 401k match and the pension benefit. Each of these items has a monetary value, especially the pension which is wages deferred. Only by comparing the total benefit package can you make an accurate comparison.
tengineer
I wouldn’t expect you to cappy. As I stated from the beginning, this is quite often a very emotional issue for people and the debates can get heated. It is not my intent to attack or insult anyone, so there would be no need for anyone to simply lie down and whimper. At the same time, if I read something that doesn’t make sense, doesn’t add up, or contradicts a fact I have verified, I’m going to question it. Like you, I’m not going to simply lie down and whimper either, if someone is going to hurl some condescending or backhanded insults, I MAY respond in kind.
So two of you feel it is ‘OK’ to work at a place where people doing your exact same job should get paid differently?
The job may be the same, the knowledge, experience, and capabilities of the individual usually is not and therefore the performance of such job is not the same, so why should the pay be the same? Evaluation of such performance is up to the company and what they choose to pay an individual for that job that is done should be up to them. btug and I worked together in the past in the same position performing the same job. I knew then that he was paid more than I was. Rather than getting upset or being jealous about it I looked at why, what was different about his job performance over mine. It helped me improve my job performance. Will our job performance ever be equal? No, we are different people.
So Cal, using your numbers. (They ARE correct.) an AB makes 200 bucks a year less at a Union company for doing the exact same job for 6 months work. versus 8 months at Mac?? correct? So If I live in Branson Mo, and have to fly in, or if I live in East Rutherford NJ and drive in, big difference in travel, I make more cash, and work less days per year at the Union job… sounds like a no brainer to me! I do have a question for you does Mac pay travel whether you are on a 2 for 1 boat, or an even time boat? any difference? That IS of interest to me, just wondering.
Getting a baseline for comparison is one of the most difficult issues because of differences in terminology and individual perception. If you ask one guy what he makes he tells you the rate including a travel per diem, ask another guy and he’ll give you the rate without the per diem. A single guy asks a married guy at another company about the cost of medical insurance and gets told a rate yet doesn’t realize it’s less for a single person, not to mention the potential differences in the actual coverage. One person gets a travel per diem another may have their travel paid. All of these considerations must be evaluated individually, by individual, etc., etc., etc…
Daily rate compared to daily rate for an AB Deckhand, at that time, McAllister $274, Union $289.20. McAllister was working a 2 for 1 schedule and Union was equal time, do the math yourself (or merely look back in the thread). McAllister 6 paid holidays (only if you were on the boat working so essentially a double day or nothing) and Union 10 holidays paid at an 8 hour rate (so daily rate times 190 days is inaccurate).
Travel per diem vs paid travel. From the perspective of compensation received, for ME, these two are equal. While it’s possible I could pocket some extra money if I received the per diem it is also equally possible I could lose money. If I were an AB at McAllister and my travel was not being paid, this would be a significant factor in my comparison. No, not everyone has had their travel paid (and it has changed multiple times in the past few years) and while it is my understanding that in the past whether you worked 4 and 2 or equal time had bearing on whether or not your travel was paid it has not been a factor in recent years.
Where you choose to live must be considered on an individual basis and including a travel per diem as part of your wage automatically includes external factors not pertinent to compensation received from the Employer. So it costs cappy roughly $30 to get to work but if he lived in Branson, MO it would cost him, let’s say, $500 round trip (so $60 vs $500 round trip). While milk, eggs, clothing, and gas may cost roughly the same, housing does not, not even close. This is an EXTERNAL factor that has no bearing on the compensation provided by the employer. It is, however, a relevant consideration on an individual basis.
Time for a Baton and Poms competition… A gym full of little girls and drama queens… Give me strength…
[QUOTE=Cal;48145]Time for a Baton and Poms competition… A gym full of little girls and drama queens… Give me strength…[/QUOTE]
An accurate description of rank and file during contract negotiations!
Re: level pay.
I was on a Mac boat in Philly. The Mate and I were chatting. He said with a wink, "I am the Mate. But the Captain is from Norfolk. I am making MORE as Mate than the Capt from Norfolk. So I have observed that Mac is not the place I would desire to work. I would be darned if I would take a job where the mate was making more than Me! AND I would NOT work for a place where they have a screwed up pay system where a captain is paid less than a mate… anywhere, anytime, any amount.
Re: Daily rate:
I believe you are also mixing metaphors on the pay to justify your point of view.
We all have our own sense of value. We also have our own personal reasons for working where, how and for how much.
But to say that I have to adopt your justification for ‘allowing’ your paid travel to not be equated with my ‘travel allowance’ as take home pay is not quite correct. I pay taxes on the ‘travel pay’ that I receive as a portion of my daily rate. If I get travel pay past NYC, it is NOT taxed. As I said, I get 700 bucks a hitch as ‘travel.’ It costs me 30 bucks to come to work. The other 670 bucks is MY income plain and simple.
You deciding to eliminate that portion out of the equation as a way to justify your equality is understandable. Not logical, but I do understand your reasoning. However, I don’t agree!
Now to tie these two points together.
The company you work for is… for lack of a better word, holding it’s employees back. both in pay and in working conditions.
On a slightly different topic. Are you aware that McAllister has separate divisions that ARE Unionized, are better paid, and are managed differently? So why should you ‘like’ being treated like the proverbial ‘red headed stepchild?’
Cal: What other companies have formed this opinion for you? concerning wages, and work conditions? Have you worked at both Union and Non? What other places have you worked?
This seems to be apples to apples here. What about working somewhere based on the fact your a name not a number to the company? Or because they have great equipment or you like the work they do? At the end of the day is that extra 15/30$ to go to sea on some pile of s@*t really worth it? Just my 2cents.
[QUOTE=rshrew;48150] What about working somewhere based on the fact your a name not a number to the company? [/QUOTE]
HUH? That’s all we are an employee number.
Why not take home as much as possible in the shortest time possible?
The crazy truth is a good many people consider high pay and time away as just two factors of many in choosing where to work.
I personally worked for lower then average pay with a company for three years because I needed financial stability more than I needed to maximize my earnings. I’ve also worked for low pay because I wanted to see some parts of the world I otherwise wouldn’t visit. (Both were different companies.)
I’ve seen many people who consider time away from home a bonus: more time away from the wife, less dealing with reality, faster to save a ton of cash for other reasons.
I’ve also spent the last few years working as much as I can: more time away, earn less per day, and no mortgage/utilities/upkeep balances it out. If my company forced me into a one for one schedule I would quit in a heartbeat.
There are so many ways to skin this cat. Just because some people value time at home for the best pay as most important doesn’t make that true for all across the board.
Well put, the name not a number just refers to working at a smaller outfit as to working for a larger corporation where you don’t ever see the owners or board members.
We all have our own sense of value. We also have our own personal reasons for working where, how and for how much.
I agree 100%. Who are you, I, or anyone else to judge another for what their personal reasons are?
People are different. What is relevant information in the decision making process for one person may be irrelevant to another. Travel per diem is merely a bonus on top of Daily Rate for you and needs no further consideration. I understand that. If I were in your shoes, living locally, I would rather receive a travel per diem as opposed to having my travel paid for too. Since I don’t, it requires separate consideration and I need to have the breakdown differentiated so I can evaluate it accordingly. How I evaluate it doesn’t have to make sense to you and you don’t have to agree, I’m fine with that, you should be too.
[QUOTE=DeckApe;48158]
There are so many ways to skin this cat.[/QUOTE]
That’s true. But Bells’ original question about 70 comments ago was how to find an even time job. This morphed into a discussion (for good or bad) about even time, uneven time, pay levels, Unions, and a host of other topics.
Now it is evident that it does in fact come down to an oft repeated comment: You (me, everyone) works for X amount of dollars per day.
We work on a myriad of places, under lots of conditions. But outsiders often use this forum to see what, how, and how much (both money wise and action) is going on elsewhere. This forum is truly a great way to get info about the industry as a whole. There is years of talent on here, and alot of sailors are willing to share info… for free! where can you get FREE advice, opinion, and years of experience shared for free. (call a lawyer and try that!)
rshrew and Deckape - these are the types of things I would like to discuss more fully. While it could be considered a non-union point of view I’m not so sure it completely is. bell47 made some comments about Union contributions to political activities as something that would have to be considered before he would accept a union job. What about these types of topics from a union point of view? Any contributions to that side of the equation?
Cal: What other companies have formed this opinion for you? concerning wages, and work conditions? Have you worked at both Union and Non? What other places have you worked?
To what opinion are you referring cappy? We’ve discussed wages which has largely been pointless. Getting a complete picture to compare wages, as one so chooses, has been particularly difficult. Pretty much the only conclusion to arrive at is that we agree to disagree. I’ve compared total compensation for one of the 333 companies and what my total compensation is with McAllister. The 333 companies are slightly higher, as they apply to my situation, not these huge differences that people like to portray. As I said before, I don’t have to be the highest paid, I merely need to be in the ballpark.
Being aware of what others make is prudent, it allows one to make a decision as to whether or not a change needs to be made. It does not necessarily dictate a concern over equality or fairness. I like to be adequately informed and I really am not concerned with equality or fairness. I’m not going to lose any sleep over another guy making more than I do.
I’ve worked in a variety of industries in a variety of positions. I’ve run my own business, I’ve worked for a single individual, and I’ve worked for large corporations in my lifetime. I have never worked for a Union company before, not because of choice, but due to lack of opportunity. For the industries I’ve worked in, in the locations I worked them, unions were not a consideration. One could say I have the opportunity now, but I need a reason to make a change, and so far, for me, I haven’t found sufficient reason.
[QUOTE=Cal;48163]I would rather receive a travel per diem … I’m fine with that, you should be too.[/QUOTE]
Truth be told, I am not alright with that. Being altruistic, I believe in a fair days work for a fair dollar. And, I know it seems unreal, but I don’t expect more than what I deserve. But on the other hand, I don’t expect to have to chase down the fair pay either. To me that is being respected by my employer! The way you’re being paid (no contract, or unified pay system) only serves to drive down wages, benefits, and work conditions for the rest of us.
Some other posters have said they like being ‘known’ by the boss. Come on… do you REALLY think your boss cares about you? If you die, do you think they will tie up your tug out of respect for you? Do you hang around with the boss at his daughters birthday party? Last year when you got your boss’ Christmas card was it even signed by him? OH, I’m sorry, I assumed you got one!
MY pay is my reward. Plain and simple. The higher it is, the better. The less time I spend with my ‘boat bums’ the happier my wife is, thus the happier I am! I work to live, not live to work. Don’t get me wrong I love my job. But it is NOT all I am about. My family is ME!
There is a simple reason I feel differently about reward. As you and Btug stated, and have confirmed several times though out this thread, There is NO steady, even discernible method of pay, benefits, travel, and even work schedule at your company.
In my simple mind, (as stated by you and btug) you two are doing the same job. Your ‘reward’ for doing a better job than btug would be to be promoted to captain quicker. And visa versa. But to have a whole company being paid catch as catch can, piecemeal and there being no benchmark for any benefits seems… well to be honest… childish. (on the part of management)
What I meant was, what other marine companies have you worked for? east coast, GOM, inland? harbor. I don’t need names, Just curious what other type boat companies you have worked for? Ferries, dinner boats?