Union vs. Non-Union (Towboat jobs thread from Maritime Employment Forum)

Professional Mariner Forum
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[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;48041]It is an issue where I am. I try to keep a level head and just follow the procedures. In the long run doing it right pays off.[/QUOTE]

Does your company have disciplinary forms? Have you filled them out? get 'em. fill 'em, and send 'em. in triplicate, and I got really good advice. CC UP. That is Carbon Copy UP the chain of command. one to HR, one to the Port Captain, and one to the manager. And one to yourself, so they know you have an electronic copy too. That way NO one an feign ignorance about this incident.

22

I’ll buy you a drink on that one. While I don’t think it’s isolated to our industry I think it is much more prevalent in our industry. I’ve told my son (who I steered toward SIU, didn’t want to see him on tugs starting out), everybody knows everybody. Large industry, great big earth, small world…

Earlier you mentioned pay. I am sorry., I don’t agree that I should have to work 8 or 9 months to make that ‘extra 15,000’ you mentioned as being needed to live the way you want. It is one thing if YOU want to work extra, but now you have forced your relief to work an uneven schedule too. Once one does it, everyone HAS to do it
With all due respect, it doesn’t matter if you agree with it or not, it is what it is. Furthermore, I didn’t make the “rules”, hell, at the time I started in this industry I didn’t know about any of it. McAllister offered me a job, I took it. I haven’t forced anyone to work anything, that’s the schedule I was hired on for and that’s the schedule I worked for 6 1/2 years.

I had to get the contract out. A Mate makes 550/day 104k a year10 holidays . DH makes 346/day 61k a year 10 holidays. both even time. How much does a mate make at your company? how about a DH? last I heard it was 400/day 77.8k and 220/day 41k NO holiday or OT. Oh I see. that comes out to parity if you are willing to give up two more months at home away from the reason you want/need this job in the first place.
Sorry Capt, I don’t mean to mince words here, but that’s why I prefer looking at the contracts myself. Do the daily rates you’ve quoted include a travel per diem or not? Last you heard must have been between 4 and 5 years ago? There are 2 rates for Mates (additionally not everyone makes the same, but I’m sure you already knew that). Oil rate is approximately $491 per day, everything else is $388. There was a recent increase, prior to that AB deckhands made $274.

The travel per diem is important. For me, my travel is paid, has been for a number of years. Do they pay it for everyone? No. I realize that for someone that lives in the region that is merely additional pay, something that Uncle Sam is going to take a bite out of. When the company pays for my travel Uncle Sam doesn’t get involved.

You want desperately to illustrate how I work 8 months for the same money that union members earn in 6 months. Problem is, it simply isn’t true. Is it true for someone working on the Mississippi River? I think so, but I’m not sure. Is it true in the Gulf? To my knowledge, which I admit is very limited, no.

I posted actual figures before, compare your contract with Reinauer’s contract. As I stated, my information was one year out of date. Reinauer’s AB deckhands made $339.20 per day including a $50 per day travel per diem. That equals a daily rate of $289.20. At the same time I made $274 per day ($15.00 per day less, as stated in a previous post) and the company paid for my travel. $289.20 x 180 days equals $52,056 per year. $274.00 x 240 days equals $65,760 for a difference of $13,704. I rounded off to $15,000, sorry. Bottom line is, that is an apple to apple comparison, like it or not. Is it possible that there have been drastic changes in the contract and union members are making significantly more now? Sure, anything is possible, but realistically it’s highly unlikely.

Agreed that Bouchard is a scummy place to work, even though the cash is GREAT. Bouchard Mates make around 600 to 630 a day. on a 2 for 1 schedule that comes out to around 140 a year. Not bad coin. But I am not willing to settle for Morty being in charge of my life for that prostitute wage. But as you said earlier, we all have minimums of what we will accept. It just seems We have a difference in what our ‘minimums’ are. My minimum takes into account my need to be home for at least half the year. This is not necessarily bad, just different. But again, I am simply trying to put out the ‘other half of the story’ as Paul Harvey says.
You’ve busted my chops about Bouchard wages but more or less confirm what my understanding was, did I pass the test? :cool: It appears to me that when it comes to Bouchard, we are pretty much in agreement all the way around. They make good money, but the costs, in so many aspects, are way too high for us personally.

Earlier you mentioned that your understanding about the '88 strike was that equal time was one of the reasons for the strike. I can’t see why a company would care whether their workers wanted to work an equal time schedule or an unequal schedule, unless they expected to be paid the same. With current figures, which from what I’ve heard were almost the same 20 years ago, that would be an annual increase in wage expense of approximately $30,000 for one deckhand position on a boat (2 deckhands, 365 days). If I were the company I would have considered that unreasonable as well.

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Not to derail the thread but whats so bad a Bouchard? The difference in AB pay from where I work to there is more that $100 dollars a day, plus they seem to have well-maintained newer equipment. I also thought they worked a 21/21 schedule. I applied there for the heck of it and im wondering if I should bother calling them up to see if they got it or not. If no one wants to post send me a PM.

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[QUOTE=KennyW1983;47980]Mcallister in Norfolk is all equal time, Jax Balt and Lauderdale are call in. Vane is all equal time. In fact the only major east coast companies that I know of who are still 2/1 are Dann and Weeks. If Bouchard needs people then I hope they will look at the application I sent them. I would love to get on at a place with newer, clean boats.[/QUOTE]

I have no idea who you work for nor does it matter but I will tell you this from many years of first hand experience, Stay away from Bouchard if at all possible. I have seen Morty destroy peoples lives, promise the world and deliver nothing better then a bag of shit. To be honest its comical to listen to him give his speech every year at the captains meetings. Please explain how a man can tell you how hard times are and horrible business is yet can buy another personal jet? Understand if you are hired at Bouchard you time will be limited, relief will come with luck and you will be fired for anything anyone on your unit does even possibly if you are home!

[QUOTE=cappy208;48021]Bell47: Everything you said, ditto. BUT, if there were NO Union around, then guess what would happen to all our wages?

Cal: You mentioned Morty’s Navy. If the pay is so good, why aren’t you there? I am NOT there because I detest Morty Bouchard. He has singlehandedly screwed up more lives than anyone else in the marine industry I know of. Great pay or not it ain’t worth it. I have principles and morals.[/QUOTE]

This is a personal opinion as our industry is lacking sufficient personal to fill the voids for those needed. This directly relates to equal time vs 2 for 1, example…

If people would stop working over companies would be forced to hire more employees. (or in Bouchard’s case take better care of the ones they have) This is the only industry that I am aware of where you are paid a daily wage regardless of work ethnics. So in my opinion this is a door way for those people with no morals or self pride to get paid well and be as lazy as they want.

Union or non union if people where paid base on their performance employers would get more from their employees and employees would work harder, safer, and more efficient if they wanted more from their employer.

[QUOTE=50thState;48037]The company I’m with now is union, and the biggest issue I see is not promotion based on seniority, but the total inability to get rid of someone incompetent. You have mates that have been run off of every boat in the fleet, because no Captain can trust them. Just about everyone refuses to sail with them, but the company has to find someplace for them because if they don’t the union will kick and scream. The Captains don’t have the power to fire somebody here. They can try, but what happens is they get them off their vessel, then the next guy is saddled with the exact same problem. That’s my issue, not every worker deserves a job, if you are incompetent, and an all around shitty mate, and everyone knows it, you have no place being out here, there is just too much at stake.[/QUOTE]

Again I feel this industry is falling short of qualified personal to fill the spots needed. Many who hold a licenses no matter what size who have their trips are getting older. With the recent changes in the rules from the USCG there is a large gap of about 5-10 years in those who are nearing retirement and those who can fill their spots.

On a side note as of now Bouchard is starting to suffer from the lack of respect towards employees, no pay increase in 5 years, and lack of attention to repair equipment. Sadly when I say “Bouchard” is starting to suffer I mean the employees who are competent and stuck on units with no relief. Morty has fired so many people over the years and pissed off so many that the only way for him to hire a qualified person worth hiring is to give a substantial raise to put them back above everyone else. No one works for Bouchard because they enjoy it, or because its a great place to work, only because they had been one of the highest paid in the business and now that jobs are limited people have no where else to go. Soon as other companies start hiring (which I understand things are picking up slightly) those who are with Bouchard and have been for years will on the hunt for somewhere else.

There will come a time in life where the money doesnt mean everything and being willing to take a pay cut seems like a deal to be at a company where your treated well and know when you are going home every trip!!

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Ironic, I don’t think anybody has brought up the point about wage transparency.

Union wages are available to members. You know that folks in the same job are making the same wage for the same work.

Now take a look at non-union outfits: When I was in the GoM after Katrina I was making $180 per day as an OS on an OSV. Amazing since I was new to the OSV’s and learning the job, and there were AB’s with years with the same company making…$130 per day. And when I got on-board, everybody wanted to know my wage rate so I lied and said $120 per day. Not my fault the office was paying a new hire OS fifty bucks a day more than an exp. AB with years in the company. And I have seen and heard the same before in the Gulf. One “captain” sat on the damn radio all day trying to find out what everybody else was making…I thought his job was to take care of the ship and it’s crew…

About some folks work hard and others don’t, well, the company can ASK for certain seaman to return to their vessels or NOT return, based on how they worked.

Amazing that folks that earn their living by their sweat would be in favor of big business and opposed to unions. No wonder this country has been going down hill ever since unions started to decline. The decline of America and unions have been on a parallel course for years. Good bye living wage jobs, hello service industry McJobs.

EVERYTHING that WE as workers HAVE can be traced to unions. From minimum wage to a forty hour work week to the right to organize, all have been fought for by unions and their members. NO company has ever been in favor of higher wages or better benefits for their employees.

Industries with higher rates of unionization have higher pay rates overall, just look at railroads and maritime. Now take a look at the dismal wages and work conditions of long-haul truckers vs. those that are teamsters. No contest. Not even close.

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where did 21 thru 25 go?

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I was wondering that as well, maybe the forces of anti-unionism (or of 333) broke in and stole them!!!

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Cal you are forgetting about the tie ups @ Mac NY when there is a slow day or weekend, or how bout when its a holiday & they tie you up so you are away from home & not getting anything. I’m working @ my 1st union outfit & the union doesn’t have to do much for us, its the owner who wants everyone to be happy. we work 2/2 for the eastcoast boats & 3/3 in the gulf. Also the 333 boats of Moran & Reinhauer didn’t get tied up when work slowed down, like they did @ Mac. K-Sea is a different animal entirely.

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I am hoping cgaptain forum didn’t get hacked, and have info stolen. I would hate to think that they have been compromised by corporate hackers!!!

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Cal: since you won’t accept the truth, Let me put it another way.
I freely accept that you may feel one way about wages, and time off. I also feel that you may not agree with my perception about not just an acceptable wage, but what is an acceptable way to have to work. But you need to realize that not all of us… actually most of us DO have minimum standards we work under. And the standards you accept are not acceptable to others! Yes alot of guys work like you do. Alot of guys are happy there. (not just at Mac, but other non union, lower paid jobs too) But some of us won’t tolerate that kind of insult. Some guys just ‘take whatever comes down the road.’

I have discussed the equity of a job, and what is a decent pay as honestly as I can with anyone I have ever talked to about this industry. Now you want me to ‘sugarcoat’ how some companies treat their employees because you like/accept being treated that way?

Your earlier comment about not ‘realizing’ that you could make more than Union scale is pretty illuminating. I have NEVER worked for [B][U][I]less[/I][/U][/B] than Union scale. EVER. In 30 years! I have worked at 4 companies. two Union, two Non. Never less than comparable Union scale.

And you are happy going around justifying how you accept working 2 or 3 months extra per year to make your 15K??? Just to square you away on that topic, a DH at Mac makes 238 a day if you work 2 for 1 that comes out to 57500 a year. Not bad huh?

But if you work at the other companies who pay Union scale in NY harbor a DH makes 326 a day, or 61500 a year EVEN time(plus 8 paid holidays). Gee I wonder which will attract a more educated applicant? I know which one the smart ones go to apply to! If that is how Mac treates their DHs I don’t have much hope for their Mates getting treated any better.

Now that Kirby has entered the coastwise towing ring, I hope they don’t flood the market with a bunch of underpaid, unemployed help. and kill whatever leverage we have as skilled, needed employees!

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[QUOTE=SaltySailor;48066]

Union wages are available to members. You know that folks in the same job are making the same wage for the same work.
[/QUOTE]

One thing others need to realize it is not just wages that Unions affect. It is working conditions. I always appreciate there being a relief on the dock. I always appreciate their being the acknowledgment that I expect to go home on an even time schedule. I always appreciate that I work with a bunch of guys who actually try, are working to ‘get ahead’ and know that I have to power and ability to show them how to do the job, or show them the door.

Regarding the other topic of useless personnel:

I am sorry, but I don’t see the same issues that Kennebec talked about regarding discipline. I got some really good advice a couple years ago. Fill out the requisite discipline forms. Send them in to HR. CC UP. That is: Carbon Copy UP the chain of command. That way no one can claim ‘amnesia’ about it.

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Salty: Your query about transparency is clear too. I have always (well, at least since my teens) heard from guys who were ‘anti union’ before I even knew what a Union was! I remember hearing from guys I worked with… Shhh, you are forbidden to discuss wages with others. Shhh, you cannot discuss your benefits package. Then everyone goes around in a stupor, keeping secrets, and assuming they are well paid, and being taken care of.

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[QUOTE=cappy208;48084]Cal: since you won’t accept the truth, Let me put it another way.
I freely accept that you may feel one way about wages, and time off. I also feel that you may not agree with my perception about not just an acceptable wage, but what is an acceptable way to have to work. But you need to realize that not all of us… actually most of us DO have minimum standards we work under. And the standards you accept are not acceptable to others! Yes alot of guys work like you do. Alot of guys are happy there. (not just at Mac, but other non union, lower paid jobs too) But some of us won’t tolerate that kind of insult. Some guys just ‘take whatever comes down the road.’[/QUOTE]

And here I thought I was arrogant, thank you for putting my misconception into the proper perspective.

Your earlier comment about not ‘realizing’ that you could make more than Union scale is pretty illuminating.

I never made such a comment. Might I suggest you turn on a light or put on your glasses for illumination when reading my posts, I’m confident it will help your reading comprehension problem but I can’t be certain that reading is where your comprehension problem lies. With all of these mistaken illuminating experiences you are having I would make sure to rule out the possibility of hot flashes, I hear that occurs in older women. If you’re not a woman, I would suggest seeking the professional advice of a doctor.

Just to square you away on that topic, a DH at Mac makes 238 a day if you work 2 for 1 that comes out to 57500 a year. Not bad huh?

But if you work at the other companies who pay Union scale in NY harbor a DH makes 326 a day, or 61500 a year EVEN time(plus 8 paid holidays). Gee I wonder which will attract a more educated applicant? I know which one the smart ones go to apply to! If that is how Mac treates their DHs I don’t have much hope for their Mates getting treated any better.

LOL! “Square” me away. I haven’t heard that crap since my Army days (circa 1989) except for Captain Chaos (as I affectionately referred to him) who was a die hard Navy man that couldn’t hack it when they dead-ended his career for lack of leadership ability so he resigned his commission, passed the Masters exam and became a “Captain” anyway!

Let’s play a different game, it’s called put up or shut up.

Your calculator has an operator head space and timing error, you might want to have it checked.

As of June 30, 2010
McAllister AB $274 x 240 Days = $65,760
Reinauer AB $289.20 x 180 Days = $52,056
Moran AB $289.20 x 180 Days = $52,056

My apologies, the only copy I have is a couple of years old from when we were applying for our mortgage and it shows my wage as $265 at that time (October 2008). As an AB Deckhand I earned $274/day for the last few years until I became a Mate. With the recent increase, AB Deckhands are making $282. Sounds like you’re comparing one of our OS Deckhands with one of your AB Deckhands. While I understand that you will not be able to correlate the wages from that period to the contract information I am posting nor do you believe me when I state what I made, I believe it may be of benefit to others. In order to differentiate, and prove to those that are willing to acknowledge the truth of my statements, I am providing a copy of my current paystub to show my rate as a Mate performing ship assist and barge assist work. Yes, you’re reading it correctly, it lists “Holiday” pay, you’re not the only one’s that get it. I’ll at least acknowledge that we only get 6 as opposed to your 10, but that’s just me. I try to be honest, I don’t try and skew the information to meet my personal bias, like trying to compare an OS Deckhand with an AB Deckhand.

You state that your Deckhands make $326 a day. While I don’t expect you to answer (you haven’t so far, why start now) the question still lingers. You expect me to believe that in the middle of an economic downturn the Union negotiated a $7 a day pay increase plus the $50 travel per diem into the contract for the OS’s that was previously, expressly, excluded OR your AB Deckhands took a pay cut of $13.00 (from $339.20 per day including the $50 travel per diem to $326).

This negotiated increase occurred at a time when Buchanan walked out of contract negotiations (President’s Report 3-31-2010) and Reinauer laughed at the Union’s demands (just rumor control but I trust the Reinauer employee and 333 member source).

The smart, more educated applicants seek out truth and facts, they don’t rely solely on the words and illegitimate ‘wisdom’ of anyone.

I’ve shown you mine (at least that portion that’s relevant, I’ve got more). Now, if you have the intestinal fortitude, show me yours.

[ATTACH]1232[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]1233[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]1231[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]1235[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]1234[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]1230[/ATTACH]

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[QUOTE=Tugted;48081]Cal you are forgetting about the tie ups @ Mac NY when there is a slow day or weekend, or how bout when its a holiday & they tie you up so you are away from home & not getting anything. I’m working @ my 1st union outfit & the union doesn’t have to do much for us, its the owner who wants everyone to be happy. we work 2/2 for the eastcoast boats & 3/3 in the gulf. Also the 333 boats of Moran & Reinhauer didn’t get tied up when work slowed down, like they did @ Mac. K-Sea is a different animal entirely.[/QUOTE]

I’m not forgetting. I had a “Maintenance Day” this last hitch (tied up for the day, no jobs, but getting 8 hours pay). Reinauer didn’t arbitrarily tie up boats like Mac did, they tied up a number of them permanently and laid people off. The Juliette, the Zachary, etc. That’s just the tugs, I don’t know how many barges they tied up. Heck, they pull the RTC 105 in and out of service at a whim. We would get orders to move it from the Basin to their yard and it was always a pain in the ass because it didn’t have a crew but they had found work for it.

My understanding is the same as yours about Moran. However, I hear rumor that they’re starting to lay people off. One can only sustain the load for so long. One has to respect Moran’s honor and integrity, they truly care about their employees which is extremely unusual in this day and age.

As with your company now though, is it because someone (in this context we’re talking about Unions) forced them to do it or is it because it was within the Owner’s personal philosphy to begin with? Some owner’s do get the concept that their most valuable asset is their employees and they conduct themselves accordingly.

I realize that McAllister doesn’t understand that concept and their personal philosphy is different. That said, it’s also my point, I know the devil I’m dealing with.

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Cal, I also believed you forgot to mention, that inlieu of a travel per diem…Mcallister employees also receive paid travel…Not all receive this however. But the majority does…Ive been watching this thread for a while…I had to chime in…Ive been at Mcallister for almost ten years now…I believe that the union representation is needed here without a doubt. I was a member of 333(moran),as well as master mates and pilots previously to coming here. Yes there are advantages that a non-union company has…We get paid for the job we do…not for the position we have…we get paid and receive wage increases based upon our performance not our seniority…Does everybody here get paid the same?..nope…As well as it should be…Crew changes here can be chaotic at best…Actually If anyone would inquire about coming to work for Mcallister I would be honest and upfront with them…Its a great place to get started, learn and advance yourself… the opportunities are here…Then make a conscious decision to go on to a different company or to remain here…i am a mate here moving petro barges…My rate is good, plus i get paid travel…when i was an AB…almost 2 years ago, at my last increase, I was at 285, plus travel…so perhaps cappy208 can “square me away” too…

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Seadog: As a 333 member I can say that I agree wholeheartedly with your view. But also remember that union wages are minimum required wages.
It’s possible to be paid over the union wage based on merit.

Cal: “Fair enough. Can’t say I had ever considered that. Since you bring it up, do know many people that are paid above the contract rate? How do their co-workers feel about this?”

The co workers loved it. everyone got a raise in excess of the contract. and bonus’ no back door dealings, no sleight of hand.

No, regarding your last post. I am probably the most modest, unassuming guy you would ever hope to meet. I just don’t lie down and whimper. I’m not saying anything about YOU, just me. nothing backhanded, nothing insulting.

As Sergeant Friday used to say… just the facts ma’am.

OK, whats goign on with the post Gcaptain? all the posts showed up, then were gone. who’s playing with the thread???

You are correct. the correct amount is 339.20. If you run the calculator times 190 days that totals… my bad. I asked a guy at home how much he made. He quoted me the lower number. But I also asked another deckhand at Mac and he said he made 238 a day. Co indicentally your comment about how much you made in two months extra work mathematically confirmed how much you made per day.

Yes the 50 bucks travel is included. The intention of the 50 bucks is to get you to NY for work. if crew change is outside NYC they pay ADDITIONAL travel to get to the boat. Since you actually pilfered a copy of the contract, why not look at it thoroughly? NO, OS don’t get it. Both Reinauer and Moran had a bevy of OS in the companies. This got them off their asses to at least get an AB ticket.

So two of you feel it is ‘OK’ to work at a place where people doing your exact same job should get paid differently? And one agrees that the company is a good place to ‘get a start at’ then leave? I guess loyalty and camaraderie mean nothing, thus the feeling of I got mine, screw the other guy run rampant. Further proof I like working in a Union shop!

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[QUOTE=btug;48098].We get paid for the job we do…not for the position we have…we get paid and receive wage increases based upon our performance not our seniority…Does everybody here get paid the same?..nope…As well as it should be…Crew changes here can be chaotic at best…[B]Actually If anyone would inquire about coming to work for Mcallister I would be honest and upfront with them…[/B]…[U][I].Its a great place to get started, learn and advance yourself… the opportunities are here…Then make a conscious decision to go on to a different company or to remain here…[/I][/U].i am a mate here moving petro barges…My rate is good, plus i get paid travel…when i was an AB…almost 2 years ago, at my last increase, I was at 285, plus travel…so perhaps cappy208 can “square me away” too…[/QUOTE]
The bold is the honesty.

The italics is the reason???

The squared away part is… you have to worry about whether you are making a fair wage? Obviously YOU were. Why not all? My buddy is pissed. He has a license, is training as well as doing the AB job, and is getting less money?

And while we’re at it. the mates pay is 541 a day. Times 190 … Yes the travel pay IS included, since all get it, and it is to get you to NYC. again travel outside NYC it paid in addition.

So Cal, using your numbers. (They ARE correct.) an AB makes 200 bucks a year less at a Union company for doing the exact same job for 6 months work. versus 8 months at Mac?? correct? So If I live in Branson Mo, and have to fly in, or if I live in East Rutherford NJ and drive in, big difference in travel, I make more cash, and work less days per year at the Union job… sounds like a no brainer to me! I do have a question for you does Mac pay travel whether you are on a 2 for 1 boat, or an even time boat? any difference? That IS of interest to me, just wondering.

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cappy208, actually, i believe that its up to the individual, to stay or leave…as i stated…loyalty and camaraderie?..maybe you missed it when i said ive been here for almost ten years…along with the majority of employees here…maybe you also missed the fact that i said having the union in here would be a good thing…please re-read the previous posts, then make your comments…oh also, let me clarify the travel issue…we receive paid travel to NY…and of course, from that point the company provides us either paid travel or reimbursement for getting to the boat. should some mates/captains/deckhands/engineers get paid more than others?..absolutely…I dont think that needs an explanation.

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Be honest. It appears NOTHING bad has happened at your company in the last two years. Why did your company move to even time two years ago? What happened to the daily rate when you went even time? Since you posted it… Does EVERYONE get travel? Really? I don’t think so!!!

Ask around when they went from 2 for 1 to even time, why they did it. Did they give any notice why they slashed wages? How much do you pay for health care? How large is your deductible?

You already have the Union contract to find out what the benchmark is. Do some comparisons.

I chose to live where I chose to live. I work locally. If the company has to send me to the boat in east bumfuck it is on their dime. I want as much cash as I can muster to live my way. I don’t want the office good old boy network messing with my pay, benefits, or chance at promotion. What I do IS what makes me (professionally) I don’t have to kiss ass to make the grade, and I don’t have to wonder if I am making parity for wages.

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when mac instructed everyone 2years ago to go equal time, there was about 50% already working equal time…As far as paid travel,once again i stated that not everyone received this benefit…it does not matter what schedule you work, travel is paid regardless, to those that receive it…I believe im going to let Cal speak about the health coverage…he is more of a numbers guy…And what makes you think that to get paid here we kiss ass?..is that what you do?..