[QUOTE=seadog!;48009]As a 333 member I can say that I agree wholeheartedly with your view. But also remember that union wages are minimum required wages.
It’s possible to be paid over the union wage based on merit.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. Can’t say I had ever considered that. Since you bring it up, do know many people that are paid above the contract rate? How do their co-workers feel about this?
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;48103]Lot’s of us would like to be judged on merit but when I was job hunting I quickly learned that “merit” means having gone to the same school as the guy in charge of hiring. In some segments of the towing industry “merit” means taking a rusty unsafe vessel to sea without squawking about it. I personally don’t like the idea of having to kiss some desk jockey ass to stay in the companies good graces.[/QUOTE]
No matter how accurate you are, and believe me, I know you are, what you are talking about does not equate to merit. It’s bias, plain and simple. Nepotism at it’s best (or worst as the case may be). There are the obvious examples and then there is the fine line between between kissing someone’s ass and going the extra mile. It’s taken me many years to get a handle on it. Do I step over the line from time to time, sure, when I realize it I’m looking back and kicking myself. For no other reason than they try to take advantage of you more. I’ve gotten better at being on the other side of that line though. Either way, I sleep comfortably at night with my dignity and self respect intact.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;48103]As far as being judged equally that’s nonsense. Do you think that those guys running the union tugs got their jobs in an environment where everyone’s skill are judged as equal? I think captains and mates working those tugs would vehemently disagree. The sea is not a democracy and the union guys made it to the top by being good at their jobs. Not based some misguided idea of equality. On the water, skill and merit maters, union or non-union.[/QUOTE]
Let’s be clear here, it is not my intent to diminish or belittle the efforts or achievements of someone else. I am interested in the viewpoints people have about Unions, for or against, and why they feel the way they do. There are many irrational, emotional viewpoints on the subject. There are people who are staunch union supporters and those who are anti-union to the core without any real ability to articulate clearly just what their reasons/objections are. I have a deep respect for the people in this industry, regardless of what company they work for or what union they may or may not be a member of. If you want the most capable, competent, and driven people watching your back, then look no further.
Don’t forget to reference your first paragraph, much of it, union or non-union, relies on the same nepotism you’ve run into with hiring. It’s not what you know, it’s who you know that is all to often a significant factor.
A couple of years ago McAllister and Reinauer sent guys off to classes to obtain their 1600 Ton license. I don’t know what the criteria for either company was in selecting their candidates, one would assume that merit played a large part. Don’t ask me to defend the criteria nor any candidate, I’m merely expressing a viewpoint of the process as I saw it. It seems to me that if a Company chose to invest that much money in someone, merit would have played a significant role. 3 of the Reinauer candidates were laid off at the beginning of the downturn, May or April of 2009. The reason we were told was their lack of seniority in the Union.
Sea Stories are Sea Stories. Take a little bit of truth and turn it into a grand adventure, that’s part of the fun. I’ve heard many over the years and when possible, I try to verify what I hear if it’s of interest to me. Have I heard other, similar stories? Sure. Above is a first hand account of a particular situation, one instance that verified for me that some of the stories I’ve heard are true. I don’t expect it to change your opinion, for you, all it is is a Sea Story. For me, it makes me take more notice of longevity and seniority when considering a Union.
[QUOTE=cappy208;48015]I certainly don’t feel that I should be ‘rewarded’ by having a less senior captain taking my job in a downturn, because he ‘feels’ that he is better than I. It is quite telling that some feel they are ‘worth’ more than I after I have been a loyal, effective Captain for more years than Thou![/QUOTE]
What about what the company ‘feels’? If you have a captain with less seniority than you that can manipulate the company into keeping him over you is it a matter of merit, seniority, or nepotism? Why should they have zero say in the matter? After all, they are the one’s that sign your paycheck. Who is it you have been loyal to? The Union or the Company? Please, don’t take offense at the question, I think it’s fair game, you put it out there. I would offer that the best interests of the Company and the best interests of the Union are not always one in the same. So where do the loyalties lie?
[QUOTE=cappy208;48015]The mention of Union scale is quite illuminating too. Everyone wants to ‘make’ a fair wage. But only through collective bargaining is this achieved.[/QUOTE]
The only place “Union scale” is mentioned is in your post. I make a fair wage that was attained without collective bargaining. One could say that’s it’s because of the Union companies nearby. But that argument doesn’t hold water when one considers that I worked in the Gulf and and made $10 a day less than I did in the Northeast.
[QUOTE=bell47;48016]I have been told to “slow down” and “don’t work so hard, it will make us look bad”…WTF, aren’t we there to work? Well, I’m gonna work hard, and get as much done as I can. Tough shit if it makes some union slacker look bad. The union at this shop totally protects slackers and the laziest people you can imagine. I was hired by the company, I don’t work for the union. The company is there to MAKE A PROFIT. If there is productive work to be done, I’m willing to do it. I have been told " don’t pick up that trash on the floor, that’s taking away work from a union member." Well get that lazy sack of monkey shit over here to clean the shit up! If it needs doing, don’t get in my way. It’smy work station, and I want it clean. I get in trouble constanly for not taking breaks and a 30 minute lunch. Well, here’s the deal, I’m a big boy and I can descide for my self when I need a break and how long it takes me to eat my lunch. If I need a break, I’ll take one, if I need two, I’'l take two, but I’m not taking a break just for the damn sake of taking a break. And, lunch, I’m right there and I bring my lunch, it doesn’t take me 30 damn minutes to eat a sandwich and a apple.[/QUOTE]
I can say that in New York Harbor I have not run into this type of attitude ever, not once.
[QUOTE=bell47;48016]Also, the union members act like the company OWES THEM A JOB.[/QUOTE]
This one unfortunately is not limited to Union members only! LOL
[QUOTE=cappy208;48021]Cal: You mentioned Morty’s Navy. If the pay is so good, why aren’t you there? I am NOT there because I detest Morty Bouchard. He has singlehandedly screwed up more lives than anyone else in the marine industry I know of. Great pay or not it ain’t worth it. I have principles and morals.[/QUOTE]
I don’t remember stating that I was unhappy with what I make now? I mentioned Morty’s Navy as part of the wage discussion. I would have to be EXTREMELY desperate to accept a position with Bouchard, I’ve witnessed some of that insanity first hand as well. I find it particularly tacky to quote oneself on message boards but since you apparently missed it:
[QUOTE=Cal;47984]While it’s always nice to make more, I’m comfortable where I’m at. I don’t have to be the highest paid, I just need to be in the ball park.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=cappy208;48021]You both have about 10 years experience. When you look back and can honestly say: “I have earned my job.” “I have not taken a job someone else’s expense.” and “I do at least as good as 50% of my fellow employees.” Then we can talk about pay, equality, fairness in the job market and seniority.
I have lived through SO many guys blowing their own horn, and self promoting it makes me sick. But in the end these blowhards are usually left on the side of the channel, wallowing in their amazement at being left behind.[/QUOTE]
Wow! You’ll have to excuse me if I am unable to contain the sarcasm, but your last statements are a bit over the top. You’re going to set requirements for others having a discussion? Equality and fairness are Union tenets, why don’t you try defending them, I’m on the other side of the fence remember? Personally I’ve lived enough of life to know that it ain’t fair and no amount of collective bargaining or lawmaking is going to change that. My only option is to stay one step ahead of it so that’s what I try to do.
While I believe in God, I’m also a fan of Darwin. It is very noble of you to be concerned about not taking a job at someone else’s expense. While I have consideration and compassion for my fellow man, make no mistake, if it’s a choice between my family and your family I’ll be fighting for mine. I would expect you to do the same.
What I can honestly say is irrelevant. If I were to claim I have met your 3 requirements for having a discussion then I would merely be dismissed as a blowhard.
Why couldn’t you have just asked me if I’ve stopped beating my wife? No right answer to that question either, but at least she get’s that quizzical look on her face which is really sexy…:rolleyes: