Union vs. Non-Union (Towboat jobs thread from Maritime Employment Forum)

If you’re going to quote me, I would appreciate it if you kept it in context when doing so, it changes the meaning SIGNIFICANTLY when you don’t.

So we can agree to disagree. I’m not as altruistic as you are, I’m okay with that.

What I meant was, what other marine companies have you worked for? east coast, GOM, inland? harbor. I don’t need names, Just curious what other type boat companies you have worked for? Ferries, dinner boats?

I knew what you were asking, the answer I’ve provided is sufficient for the discussion I’m willing to have. I’m not going to dicker every minute detail and difference to end up agreeing to disagree. The discussion has wandered far from it’s intended purpose which would be okay, if the journey served a purpose. I don’t know that anyone has gained any particular knowledge from our little segue other than we can both be opinionated, which I would have offered from the beginning.

funny stuff cappy208…i enjoy reading your comments…they just keep getting better and better… i love it how you dislike when other people dont see things your way…you must be a joy to work with, always being right…now dont get me wrong i respect you as a brother mariner, but as it has been said on here countless times…we are all adults and are entitled to make up our own minds…btw, i did get a christmas card from the boss…party with him and his daughters?..um no…who in their right mind would invite there employees to a family gathering?..anyway, back on subject…i stated on here that the union representation is needed here…i mean it…i believe it would put a halt to several issues. i also stated that this is a great place to work, as it is…Bill is doing a great job with the union and is getting things done…as well as himself being a gentleman and a straight shooter, that actually is concerned about the individuals not how much money can he squander away…like the last bunch…Bill has been to my house and has an open invite anytime he so chooses…good guy…im sure that after all the facts are considered, both cal and i , as well as all the other people here will make an informed decision to vote yes/no or go somewhere else…

[QUOTE=Cal;48166] bell47 made some comments about Union contributions to political activities as something that would have to be considered before he would accept a union job. What about these types of topics from a union point of view? Any contributions to that side of the equation?.[/QUOTE]

I don’t have a lot of expertise in this subject so you can take this with a grain of salt:

I think there is an assumption that unions support causes supported by the left but I don’t think that is accurate.The left supports unions while the right sides with business so naturally unions tend to endorse candidates on the left more frequently. But aside from that union involvement in politics tends to be confined to support for policies that would benifit members.

My experience with political views is the officers lean right and the crew leans left and the union leans pragmatic. As far as I am concerned union support of policies not supported by members is a non-issue.

K.C.

After i wrote that, I knew I should have divided it up, and addressed it to all three of the intended recipients. Sorry to have made you think that was to just you two.

BUT, I was communicating to ALL the readers who may want an all around view of wages, and benefits.

Cal: Why is 190 days not the correct number to multiply the daily rate by? 182.5 days at work per year, and an aggregate of 5.6 days holiday pay (8 days at 8 hours pay = 5). totals 188.1 OK, I rounded up to 190. again, the math speaks (as does my paystub)

An earlier comment by someone was: This thread is really confusing to understand. I agree. Sorry, but I figured only quoting what I was referring to would help get the point across.

Btug: I am not trying to entertain, but to share a divergent opinion of how pay works in the industry. You two have done a good job confirming some details that (I am sure) others are appreciative of. As long as every one else can make up their mind, then the conversation has been worthwhile.

I have zero expertise with it, just some observations from reading the news in NYC and newsletters from the SIU hall in St Louis.

If I’m understanding you correctly K.C., you’re saying the union isn’t going to support a candidate or policy unless it’s of benefit to the membership. If there is no subject pertaining to the benefit of the membership, the union isn’t going to offer support of any candidate or policy.

I have enough difficulty in selecting candidates that best represent my views. In general my views closely match one, yet on one subject that is extremely important to me, there is a disagreement. While views may be similar with the one, I often times end up voting for the other based on this one subject. I don’t know how I would feel if I indirectly supported a candidate I was completely opposed to because of union membership. Politically, the voice of a group these days is heard much more easily than an individual. All I have is one vote, and I use it, but it’s the lobbyists and the corporations that have a bigger vote with their money.

Cal: Why is 190 days not the correct number to multiply the daily rate by? 182.5 days at work per year, and an aggregate of 5.6 days holiday pay (8 days at 8 hours pay = 5).

As they say, the devil is in the details. As tengineer pointed out, unless we identify every detail of compensation an accurate comparison cannot be made. With everything we’ve posted here I doubt that many could use that information to compare what we earn to what they earn on wage alone. Granted, as I agreed with you before, some of the guys working the rivers make such a lower wage that no further comparison is needed. Why haven’t we gone into complete details? Until now I don’t think we’ve had a clear definition of wage. For what it took to get here, I don’t know that I want to venture into the rest. Maybe we should, but I would have to hear others requests for such before I go down that road.

By aggregating the holidays into the calculation you are piecemealing the information. YOU know that a holiday for you is an 8 hour day. I know it’s a 12 hour day for me, but only if I’m on the boat. For my son working for MSC through SIU it’s something else (I’ve never seen a crazier scheme for determining pay as that). Anyone else is going to compare that to how holidays are handled for them assuming that they are handled the same when in reality they aren’t.

As such aggregating anything presents a skewed picture, not by much, but skewed nonetheless. I AM NOT trying to say that is your intent. I don’t think you give it that much thought. That’s the way you view it so that’s the way you say it, most people do.

Sorry, but I figured only quoting what I was referring to would help get the point across.

If you were referring only to the part you quoted, you misinterpreted what I said and subsequently misrepresented what I said. You can’t take part of a sentence here and part of a sentence there and piece them together, it potentially changes what was originally stated. In the particular instance, it changed the meaning of what I said completely.

Let me see if I have this straight though. The company pays for my travel, but not everyone’s and you believe this is wrong. If I were to move locally to where I work and would rather receive the travel per diem instead, you believe this is wrong. I believe the the company paying for my travel puts me in parity with the union negotiated travel per diem, you disagree. Does that about sum it up?

[B]The company pays for my travel, but not everyone’s and you believe this is wrong.[/B] Yes. Favortism reeks of a class/caste system

[B]If I were to move locally to where I work and would rather receive the travel per diem instead, you believe this is wrong. [/B]No. I get this. But again, everyone gets it at my company (and other Union contracted companies in NY harbor) So there is no ‘good ole boy network’ evident here.
[B]
I believe the the company paying for my travel puts me in parity with the union negotiated travel per diem, you disagree. Does that about sum it up? [/B] Yup If, and I mean mean in a long shot, You and I were making the same (within dollars per day as you originally stated) looked at the numbers on our paychecks, I would have an extra 700 bucks in mine per hitch. (50 bucks per day) and when we were sent to corpus christi. I would have a plane ticket waiting for me at JFK, EWR, or LGA to get to corpus, AND the extra 700 bucks too. Don’t worry, Ill buy the beer at IAH though and we can hash over the differences!

And you just found some more ammo! I get the holidays whether I work them or not! evidently you only get them if you work them. Doesn’t is amaze you that some of the crews always seem to swing the schedule so one of them always seems to get the holidays? sounds fare to me, since the good ole boys do the ‘arranging.’

[QUOTE=Cal;48185]
If I’m understanding you correctly K.C., you’re saying the union isn’t going to support a candidate or policy unless it’s of benefit to the membership. If there is no subject pertaining to the benefit of the membership, the union isn’t going to offer support of any candidate or policy.[/QUOTE]

I am not saying they won’t support issues that are opposed to the membership, but that is not what they are elected to do . They have been hired to represent the views of the membership and I voted on the individual who’s views and values I most closely agreed with. The only person who agrees 100% with you is you. Which politician in government represents your views perfectly? It is cliche but we don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.

[QUOTE=Cal;48185]
I have enough difficulty in selecting candidates that best represent my views. In general my views closely match one, yet on one subject that is extremely important to me, there is a disagreement. While views may be similar with the one, I often times end up voting for the other based on this one subject. I don’t know how I would feel if I indirectly supported a candidate I was completely opposed to because of union membership. Politically, the voice of a group these days is heard much more easily than an individual. All I have is one vote, and I use it, but it’s the lobbyists and the corporations that have a bigger vote with their money.?[/QUOTE]

The owners invest in equipment and hire workers. Profits are produced. The owner uses part of his profits to lobby government. They are looking to reduce costs and increase profit so they lobby to reduce manning, to reduce safety regulations and oversight, to replace high cost workers with low cost workers, suppress regulations to combat fatigue and they form coalitions with other firms to achieve their goals. To believe otherwise is to ignore reality.

The unions on the other hand, lobby for issues they believe will benefit them. As before, don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.As far as being too pure to join an organization unless their goals match yours 100% think about the fact that as a citizen your dues are used as the government sees fit. And if you refuse to pay your dues you go to jail. Except they don’t call them dues they call them taxes.

At some point you have to deal with the world as it is.

K.C.

Is it favoritism or acknowledgment of job performance? Should the only way to receive higher compensation be to advance in position or go to another company? Should the companies hands be tied in this regard?

A Reinauer Barge Captain once told me, “you have to pay your dues before moving up to a good union job. You start out somewhere else then move up.” This would lead one to believe that everyone working for the union is experienced and their job performance is the same. Maybe that’s true, I have difficulty believing that, but I’ll acknowledge the possibility exists.

That’s not true where I work. I’ve had AB’s come on the boat that had never touched push gear, never towed on a wire, and some had never made up on the hip. Some came on the boat and didn’t know the particulars of how to do it on that boat, maybe they had only used sheaves. You could put me on any boat in McAllisters fleet, and probably most, if not all, of yours, and I can make up with little to no direction. That’s not true of everyone. Some guys spent 6 months on the boat and still needed to get the other deckhand up every time we made up. So while the job may be the same, the performance is not. How is it then that we should be paid the same? How is it favoritism that I am compensated more for how well I perform the job?

I believe the the company paying for my travel puts me in parity with the union negotiated travel per diem, you disagree. Does that about sum it up? Yup If, and I mean mean in a long shot, You and I were making the same (within dollars per day as you originally stated) looked at the numbers on our paychecks, I would have an extra 700 bucks in mine per hitch. (50 bucks per day) and when we were sent to corpus christi. I would have a plane ticket waiting for me at JFK, EWR, or LGA to get to corpus, AND the extra 700 bucks too. Don’t worry, Ill buy the beer at IAH though and we can hash over the differences!

So we view it differently and hopefully can agree to disagree. As far as travel outside of New York, McAllister has always paid for my travel when the boat was outside of New York, even before they started paying for my travel to New York. Just so we’re clear though, in most cases it was cheaper for a ticket from St Louis to wherever, or vice versa, than to or from New York. If I was already in New York then the company paid, it was never a thought otherwise.

But I’ll still let you buy the beer, I’m not known to pass up free beer…:smiley:

And you just found some more ammo! I get the holidays whether I work them or not! evidently you only get them if you work them. Doesn’t is amaze you that some of the crews always seem to swing the schedule so one of them always seems to get the holidays? sounds fare to me, since the good ole boys do the ‘arranging.’

More ammo? I didn’t realize I was in some sort of battle that I needed to win! I thought this was merely a discussion? If you’re treating it as some sort of battle then that explains a lot…

I don’t agree with how McAllister handles holidays, but I understand it and I understand why. The reality of the situation may surprise you, if I’m understanding your comment correctly. The Mate that works opposite of me has more time with the company and more time in position than I. We swung the schedule right before the holidays this year. Not so he was working the holidays, as I’m perceiving from your comment, but rather so he was home. Being home was more important to him than the money. Which is why McAllister handles it the way they do, so they have personnel willing to work the holidays.

Furthermore, I’m not a big fan of this “other crew” concept. I’ve heard it out of various Captains, Mates, and Engineer’s over the years who were working equal time schedules while I was on a 2 for 1 schedule. They’d make some criticism of, “the other crew” and in my mind, and on occasion in words, I’d say, “Hey wait a minute, I AM the other crew”. Everyone on my boat now is equal time and I’ve noticed quite a few ideas that are absolute BS because everyone crew changes at the same time.

LOL! None. I understand your point. We had a Senator a few years back involved in a crucial vote that happens to be the single, hot button topic for me. For the most part his views matched mine, except on the one topic. The rest of his constituency, by majority, held the same view as I and this was well known and publicized. When it came right down to it, he voted his conscience and failed to represent his constituency. Needless to say, he didn’t win re-election and it wasn’t even close.

Government, Employers, and Unions. I also understand what you are saying here. To a large extent their activities balance each other out. Personally I believe we have a choice in everything, even if we don’t care for the choices we are given. As you point out with Government, I can choose not to pay my taxes and there is a high probability I will go to jail for it. It’s not a good choice, but it’s still a choice. I could choose not to work, therefore not supporting an Employer’s political views. So I get to choose between a good living and poverty, again, not much of a choice, but nonetheless a choice. The choice of whether or not to be a union member on the other hand does not present me with as difficult a choice. I am not unhappy with my present working conditions and environment, maybe that viewpoint would be different if I had worked for a union company and experienced the differences first hand.

In many ways I see a Union as another level of bureaucracy, which I am not a fan of. I view it as just another desk jockey trying to tell me how to do my job. Another set of rules that I’m supposed to play by.

Then I see rules (laws) that were clearly supported by unions that to me violate common sense. There have been competing ads on TV in New York over the last couple of months regarding teachers. With proposed budget cuts a lot of teachers may lose their jobs. As the law stands, the last teacher hired will be the first one hired. Is it automatically assumed that someone who has been teaching longer is the best? While this provides job security for the teachers, what about the children? Shouldn’t we be doing what’s best for our children’s education? Are the two necessarily one in the same? Now granted, I don’t know all of the in’s and out’s of this particular law, I’m only familiar with what’s been on TV and I haven’t researched it further, but on the face of what I’ve seen this makes no sense to me whatsoever.

You’re right K. C., sometimes you have to accept the world as it is. I’m just not sure that this is an aspect I’m required to accept. My kids may very well kill me and bury me in the back yard if they hear me say, one more time, “There is the way things should be, then there is the way things are, deal with it”.

-Cal you’ve raised several issues - One thing if you have crew members who can’t do their job then the captain should fire them. If captains don’t know how or don’t have what it takes they should sail mate. Why a captain whold risk sailing with unqualified crew if he doesn’t have to is beyond me. You might get by day to day one day the $hit is going to hit the fan as they say.

As far as trouble with other issues - Which is better high prices or low prices? The answer is are you buying or selling? Teacher unions are looking out for the interest of teachers not your interests. Do you think a doctor should not join the AMA because he doesn’t agree with the NRA - both are associations?

Teacher unions are outside my area of expertise but here is a right leaning FP / military blog about the issue Systemic Curricular Choices Shape National Cognitive Traits

Here is another articleGot Dough? How Billionaires Rule our Schools

K.C.

It’s amazing how many more strokes this dead horse can take…LOL!

Of the 39 years I sailed, the last 24 years were with 2 companies under SIU contract. We negotiated very good contracts with top pay, fully paid travel, top tier insurance, cap-off and 2 for 1 pension contributions (my favorite part) Money Purchace Plan, and now a 401K. I’ve seen many guys take advantage of the school at Piney Point. The last 2 years I sailed, there were 9 AB/tankermen I worked with earned their 3rd mates. There’s been more since. Room, board and school is well worth the dues.

I just heard the horse whinny… or was that the bray of an ass?

anyway, why should you take the metaphor of ammo as literal? You earlier mentioned taking everything into account when making decisions. THAT is what I was referring to. Not ammunition, but evidence. Sorry, I will try to be more accurate in analogy next time.

The question of politics reared its ugly head. I can actually inject my own non confrontational opinion on that here. briefly.

Term Limits. Vote the bums out. I think it is problematic of ALL elected officials that like house guests, they overstay their welcome and usefulness. As Btug said, the last Union election confirmed that too.

Speaking of Union elections, I was really tortured when Cornette was being challenged by Chillimi. I didn’t know who to vote for. But when Cornette sent out the little page attacking the bowler hat Chillimi wears I figured if that was all Cornette had to say bad about Chillimi, then Cornette needed a vacation to figure out what was wrong.

Also, Cornette mentioned that ‘in his day as cook on the Gulf tankers’… That was all I needed to hear, the cook was running the show. Case closed. Chillimi won. Now it’s Harrigans turn. Time will tell.

[QUOTE=cappy208;48216]I just heard the horse whinny… or was that the bray of an ass?[/QUOTE]

Cappy…that’s the bray of a retired ass! You should know the difference.

The point I was trying to make is that most dues and contributions don’t just pour into political coffers.

Cal…I never felt a layer of bureaucracy between me and the company with the union. It’s nice to have rules that the company has to follow also like having a manning scale, “missing man’s pay” and penalty overtime.

Not so much that I took it literal cappy, but the topic is a touchy one for many people. You have to admit the debate got a little heated. I don’t have a problem with that necessarily, sometimes debates need to get heated. But if it gets overheated then it ends.

Term Limits. Vote the bums out. I think it is problematic of ALL elected officials that like house guests, they overstay their welcome and usefulness.

See, we agree on some things without debate!

Now it’s Harrigans turn.

I’ve had a number of conversations with Bill and I like his approach, I like him. However I’m still on the fence as to whether or not having 333 at McAllister would actually improve things or merely exchange them for a different set of problems. Whether caused by 333 or McAllister.

Understood, but, do you think I would have encouraged my son to go SIU if I were anti-union? When I first started out I tried to go SIU, whether it was an SIU thing or the hall I was dealing with (St Louis) I don’t know, but they kept pushing the apprenticeship program and it was something I simply couldn’t do, I had a family to support. Now, it seems kind of pointless and almost as if it would be a step backward for me. If I did make the change, which I have considered, it would be to get enough time to get the tonnage restriction removed from my Third Mate license. Then it ends up being a different union does it not? SIU doesn’t handle licensed, they only handle unlicensed correct?

There are some significant differences between SIU and 333.

cappy objects to the “good ole boy network”, but if my understanding is correct, that’s exactly what 333 was prior to the strike. If you didn’t personally know someone, you didn’t get in. I may not be a “coon ass” which there is a particular hatred for, but I am definitely an outsider.

Furthermore, the whole brotherhood thing. cappy being altruistic and all. What about brotherhood and altruism for the guys at Kosnac? When the economic crisis began Kosnac cried poverty and the workers and the Union didn’t believe them. The workers went on strike. Do you know how much 333 paid out in strike benefits? Zero. What happened to the 4 (or 5, I don’t remember exactly) members that after 2 1/2 months on strike crossed the picket line and went back to work (all of this around the holidays mind you)? They were thrown out of the union. Lot of good going back to work and getting thrown out of the union did for them, the company went under and they were unemployed again.

I see Kosnac as testing the waters, a sacrificial lamb if you will. Small company, 3 boats. No big loss if anyone is wrong. Well, they were wrong and Kosnac is no more, neither are those jobs. The President of the UAW here in St Louis made a stand, there were no more concessions the union could make, their final offer was on the table! Those jobs are gone now too, there is no more auto manufacturing in St Louis, every plant has been closed.

I can see some benefits of a union, no doubt about it. But there are some things that scare the hell out of me, the above are examples.

At the end of the day, I am a family man first. I can be a company man or union man second, those are merely business relationships for me. The current business relationship I have works to meet my needs.

Cal
The SIU Inland division has tugs, ATBs and dredges under contract for all positions. There are many of us with unlimited licenses. I’m not sure if it is still operating but there was a RO/RO toting rocket boosters with all SIU crew except captain and Chief.

I had opportunities to sail AMO and MEBA years ago but SIU inland worked out very well for me. I retired at 56 but should have done it at 55.

I talked to the 333 about 8 months ago, i am an unlimited AB and Tankerman and was interested in going that route (still am if anybody has a tip to do it). seemed kinda off that they wanted me to pay them 60 bucks to have the privilege of getting on a hire list that is 50 guys long, all of them union members and the first to get jobs. And that was only going to be good for 3 months on the list. Ive never worked union, am not against it just never done it, but the way they acted didnt seem like a good way to get new members, or give someone a warm fuzzy feeling about them i have heard good things about siu though.

And you dont have to be union to get travel or the other goodies. when i worked on the west coast i was at a non union outfit that paid all travel plus daily wages door to door, and we were within 10-20 bucks a day of the union outfit that was out there. When I started working out here on the east coast is the first time i have come across no travel and such a huge difference in wages and benefits between companies. it is kind of an eye opener.

just my two cents, try to give the warring parties a breather.

[QUOTE=chgonyer;48233]just my two cents, try to give the warring parties a breather.[/QUOTE]

Your two cents and your breather are appreciated. One thing I believe I should clarify is my stance in all of this. The question is not whether or not I should join a union. The question for me is whether or not I should vote for representation by 333 in my current place of employment. While such a decision has already been made by my friend btug, I am still on the ropes and searching for that one piece of enlightenment that will tilt the balance one way or the other. Change is difficult. To ask for such change, aside from what you know, is even more difficult.

chgonyer…There are no warring parties, this is normal intercourse for operations north of I-10. LOL!

Cal…I worked in and out of the oilfield the first 15 or so years that I sailed. I heard all of the union horror stories. I wound up getting large raises every time the unions came snooping around California, Alaska and Rhode Island. In the down-turn of the oilfield in '85, I joined the SIU and was surprised not to see child sacrifices in the hall.

There are non union companies that do take care of their employees. It’s been my experience that I received better working conditions and benefits under union representation.

Cal you should think about they change what you make if you do one thing or the other, or both. The union will make them put wages on a piece of paper & they can’t reneg on. That right there should be enough. They change the rate on what you make up there as fast some people change clothes & it’s wrong. The fellas @ Moran don’t get that, they know what they are gonna make rather it be docking ships, pushing a cement barge or towing an oil barge.

Ok se we have 3 current and at least 1 former subjects of Captain Brian up here. If the Staten Island guys vote the union back in what effect will it have on the rest of the non union ports?? I know VA is right to work but it seems that if we voted them back in here it might help us somewhat. I agree with ted pay is nuts. We have ABs here in Norfolk that get anything from 175 to 250 a day depending on how tight you are with the office.

If the union can just help give some job security to us so we dont worry about getting laid off every other day it would make it nice. It seems like everytime we get comfortable they swing the sickle once again.

[QUOTE=injunear;48237]normal intercourse [/QUOTE]

Spoken and put into true sailors lingo. Good choice of words. At least we’re all paying attention now!

What was the rest of your post about???