[QUOTE=highseasmechanic;98129]I never really had an appreciation for steam out of the academy until I sailed on a steam. Yes I am one of the few newer guys that actually has steam ship experience. In fact I was even able to upgrade to steam 2nd due to my time. I sailed on the SS Blue Ridge for almost two years. Granted it was rather automated (single person watch stander). Regardless, I knew very little when I came on board for the first time as I only had simulator time from Cal. The Chief and First were really good about bringing me up to speed and was cleaning burners, putting in the jacking gear, and warming up the turbines in no time. The poor port boiler had many super heater tube ruptures. Got to love foster-wheeler supe rheater header inner and outer doors. We had some kick ass QMED’s who knew the drill with the doors. I think all told in the two years I sailed on her, (scrapped RIP), we plugged about 20 tubes. Rumor was they got some bad steel tubes when they were replaced in the previous shipyard.[/QUOTE]
I think the appreciation for “kick ass” QMEDs, oilers etc has gone out the window. It is sad because I have more respect for some of the life long oilers I knew than many of the licensed guys. These guys took pride in their work and carried many an engineer on their backs. Now there seems to be an attitude that if you don’t get a license you are some sort of lower class citizen
Heck, the drillship people don’t even know what a QMED or oiler is, they call them “motormen”. What the hell is a motorman? Who came up with that? The USCG got a “motorman” credential they’re handing out nowadays? Next thing you know engineers on drillships will be called mechanics…Transocean is already doing that in some cases.
[QUOTE=tengineer;98135]I think the appreciation for “kick ass” QMEDs, oilers etc has gone out the window. It is sad because I have more respect for some of the life long oilers I knew than many of the licensed guys. These guys took pride in their work and carried many an engineer on their backs.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely true, when a green 3rd A/E would show-up I made sure his watch partner, be he called QMED or Oiler, was a kick ass. You are also correct about the pride these good men carried.
[QUOTE=tengineer;98135] Now there seems to be an attitude that if you don’t get a license you are some sort of lower class citizen.[/QUOTE]
Sad to read such words, what bull shit!
[QUOTE=tengineer;98135]Heck, the drillship people don’t even know what a QMED or oiler is, they call them “motormen”. What the hell is a motorman? Who came up with that? The USCG got a “motorman” credential they’re handing out nowadays? Next thing you know engineers on drillships will be called mechanics…Transocean is already doing that in some cases.[/QUOTE]
If this continues the US Merchant Marine, or what’s left of it, will lose all its rich traditions. “Motorman” - Kiss my ass !
Our QMED’s we had on both rotations were absolute machines. They had sailed on the ship for 5 years plus and knew the drill. The 1rst never had to tell them what to do and they fixed stuff on their own. If we needed them for assistance they would be there even if it was 2 am to pull the boiler apart. I know many a times when I was a green 3rd A/E on their I would ask them for help of advice. I always had the utmost respect for oilers/QMED’s whenever I went on a new ship. As tengineer said, they carried many a green 3rd along and honestly never really got the respect they deserved. All of us in the engine department respected our QMED’s on that boat.
Way back I was asked to give a little talk to a Tugs and Towing Class at one on the State Schools. These were mostly deck cadets. The reaction that I got when I told them that if they were to be lucky enough to have a seasoned AB on there boat that they should ask and learn from them as they have been there and done it. About 80% of these cadets looked at me like I had two heads and said why should we do that, We will be the ones with the License. I just looked at them and said have fun.
A couple of years later one of these kids showed up on my boat as an AB. He did not recognize me but I knew him. He still walked around trying to tell an AB with 15 years experience that he was doing everything the wrong way. The Captain was going to step in but the AB wanted to handle it himself which he did. He gave the kid just enough rope to almost hang himself then stepped in and showed him how real AB’s did it. To give this kid credit, he did turn out pretty good and stayed on deck longer than the office wanted so he could learn more. So I guess there is some hope.
[QUOTE=Tugs;98165]Way back I was asked to give a little talk to a Tugs and Towing Class at one on the State Schools. These were mostly deck cadets. The reaction that I got when I told them that if they were to be lucky enough to have a seasoned AB on there boat that they should ask and learn from them as they have been there and done it. About 80% of these cadets looked at me like I had two heads and said why should we do that, We will be the ones with the License. I just looked at them and said have fun.
A couple of years later one of these kids showed up on my boat as an AB. He did not recognize me but I knew him. He still walked around trying to tell an AB with 15 years experience that he was doing everything the wrong way. The Captain was going to step in but the AB wanted to handle it himself which he did. He gave the kid just enough rope to almost hang himself then stepped in and showed him how real AB’s did it. To give this kid credit, he did turn out pretty good and stayed on deck longer than the office wanted so he could learn more. So I guess there is some hope.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know what causes such an arrogant attitude on the part of some cadets and new mates and engineers. Oh yea, I heard all the theories, the most common being that’s what the academies teach cadets now days. I have my doubts it’s the schools, my theory is it’s poor potty training, and how one was raised, which produces such attitudes. I suppose it was no different a half century ago when I was a cadet but I recall I was eager to learn and appreciated all the help given. I’m sure there were many like me. Wen I was a kid my Dad, whom I loved very much, insisted I work for what I thought I wanted, if I did, he told me, he would contribute enough money to make the difference. It’s amazing how much money a kid could save by delivering new papers back in those years. Granted, times have changed but I ran into cadets who really wanted to learn and who contributed their share of the work load.
[QUOTE=tengineer;98133]Economizer tubes under higher pressure than superheater tubes? Must be something new.[/QUOTE]
Been a while since I’ve set foot on a steamer but is the feedwater regulator before or after the economizer? I would assume after. Yes, the economizer does operate at higher pressure than the superheater. Lets say you run a drum pressure of 950 psi, the feed water has to lead drum pressure by around 100 psi so feed water will typically be 1050-1100 psi, the economizer is in the feed water circuit at feed water pressure. There is a substantial pressure drop through the superheater so superheater pressures may be as low as 850 psi on the same plant. So, yes, economizer tubes are at a higher pressure than superheaters.
I thought econimizer feed branches off of desuperheater outlet. Damn it’s been so long I’m gonna have draw this out on paper. You use it or lose as they say.
[QUOTE=tengineer;98133]Economizer tubes under higher pressure than superheater tubes? Must be something new.[/QUOTE]
Boy did I ever have a brain fart, of course it is higher. That’s a serious senior moment, must be getting to have a stroke or codgerism has taken over completely.
[QUOTE=tengineer;98188]Boy did I ever have a brain fart, of course it is higher. That’s a serious senior moment, must be getting to have a stroke or codgerism has taken over completely.[/QUOTE]
Oh Man, this is so funny, You got a long way to go before any serious senior moments will happen, tengineer, if they happen at all. I’m 72 and I still know my middle name, by golly. I very much like and appreciate the manner in which you handled this most delicate situation.
I also thank 87cr250r for his threading together a proper and nice reply. Oh, mentioning the feed water regulator, I have 2nd A/E tats on both arms even though I wore a long sleeve shirt I got bit. I don’t think that contraption liked me.
To change the subject just a tad, do any of you recall that lovely “Basket” type air heater, and all the fun cleaning same? Those baskets were so warped it had to have been designed by some mad sadist.
[QUOTE=87cr250r;98181]Been a while since I’ve set foot on a steamer but is the feedwater regulator before or after the economizer? I would assume after. Yes, the economizer does operate at higher pressure than the superheater. Lets say you run a drum pressure of 950 psi, the feed water has to lead drum pressure by around 100 psi so feed water will typically be 1050-1100 psi, the economizer is in the feed water circuit at feed water pressure. There is a substantial pressure drop through the superheater so superheater pressures may be as low as 850 psi on the same plant. So, yes, economizer tubes are at a higher pressure than superheaters.[/QUOTE]
The butterhead shows his smarts again. 87cr250r is a very smart guy when it comes to this kind of stuff, even if he is a youngster like myself. I always gave respect to my senior officers and crew. I do miss being a steam ship sometimes. I do not miss plugging super heater tubes.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;98183]I thought econimizer feed branches off of desuperheater outlet. Damn it’s been so long I’m gonna have draw this out on paper. You use it or lose as they say.[/QUOTE]
Good Lord, Fragrat, now you got me confused.
Where’s Too bad steam is gone when we need him?
[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;98191]Oh Man, this is so funny, You got a long way to go before any serious senior moments will happen, tengineer, if they happen at all. I’m 72 and I still know my middle name, by golly. I very much like and appreciate the manner in which you handled this most delicate situation.
I also thank 87cr250r for his threading together a proper and nice reply. Oh, mentioning the feed water regulator, I have 2nd A/E tats on both arms even though I wore a long sleeve shirt I got bit. I don’t think that contraption liked me.
To change the subject just a tad, do any of you recall that lovely “Basket” type air heater, and all the fun cleaning same? Those baskets were so warped it had to have been designed by some mad sadist.[/QUOTE]
Screw basket air heaters! HATED the things. Damn you are bringing back terrible memories. When you mentioned that I remembered an interesting problem with a rotary preheater. Stack temperature was getting too low, corroding etc., and the chief correctly blamed it on the preheater. He was all set to cut some area out of it to get the stack temperature up when my bright young self suggested speeding up the air motor as I felt it wouldn’t have time to gather as much heat. He told me I was FOS that it would eventually reach a state of equalization the same as before due to the mass. I bet him a raise it would work because of a bunch of heavy duty cyphering I was capable of doing at the time. He said we would try it but if it didn’t work not only would I not get the raise I would be back to being the king of firesides and burners for 6 months. I got the raise and was offered a job in the office. I turned the office job down and when he asked why I had just got finished washing a economizer and looked like it. I said, “and miss all this?” Besides they would probably expect bright ideas on a regular basis.
Highest pressure in the engine room steam and water system is the feed pump discharge. Water flows to a lower pressure the economizer, feed stop, feed regulator, feed check, drum inlet. The drum pressure varies depending on load and superheater outlet pressure remains constant. Many feed pump controllers adjust the pump outlet pressure to 100 psi above drum like someone else already mentioned. It has been six years since my last steam fix so if I’m missing something so be it.
Here is something most steam people haven’t seen which Matson had on their ships to reduce NOx. Atomizing steam pressure was 100 psi above FO burner pressure. The atomizing steam reducer varied the pressure which sometimes was 330 psi. They also had burners which the min. FO pressure was 20 psi and they stayed lit at that pressure. Not your average burners.
[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;98191]
I also thank 87cr250r for his threading together a proper and nice reply. Oh, mentioning the feed water regulator, I have 2nd A/E tats on both arms even though I wore a long sleeve shirt I got bit. I don’t think that contraption liked me.
.[/QUOTE]
I was fortunate to never have to deal with a mechanical drum level regulator. This is one case where electronics have made our lives simpler where drum level is controlled simply by a pressure transducer, steam flow transducer, and a Yokogawa PID controller. Oh, it did monitor feed pressure as well.
I worked on on a tanker that would start a standby feed pump if the feed discharge pressure fell below a certain pressure for 3 seconds. One night the 3rd calls me at 1 am and says he lost the pump and the other one didn’t start. I run down to the engine room feed pumps and find both pumps at 600 psi discharge. I grabbed a crowbar from the shop and lifted the oil relay and got the SOB to 1100 psi where it should have been. I removed the I/P outlet air and put an air mate on it and set it for 1100 psi with the air mate. I went to the other pump and found the valve stem (rising stem) indicator bolt had fallen out and jammed the Limitorque steam supply valve partially open (hence only 600 psi output on pump (not enough steam to run it).
The original pump failed due to a bad I/P controller not supplyiing enough air to run the pump at speed.
[QUOTE=87cr250r;98315]I was fortunate to never have to deal with a mechanical drum level regulator. This is one case where electronics have made our lives simpler where drum level is controlled simply by a pressure transducer, steam flow transducer, and a Yokogawa PID controller. Oh, it did monitor feed pressure as well.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;98306]Highest pressure in the engine room steam and water system is the feed pump discharge. Water flows to a lower pressure the economizer, feed stop, feed regulator, feed check, drum inlet. The drum pressure varies depending on load and superheater outlet pressure remains constant. Many feed pump controllers adjust the pump outlet pressure to 100 psi above drum like someone else already mentioned. It has been six years since my last steam fix so if I’m missing something so be it.
Here is something most steam people haven’t seen which Matson had on their ships to reduce NOx. Atomizing steam pressure was 100 psi above FO burner pressure. The atomizing steam reducer varied the pressure which sometimes was 330 psi. They also had burners which the min. FO pressure was 20 psi and they stayed lit at that pressure. Not your average burners.[/QUOTE]
Many moons ago in a stationary plant I saw something similar and it almost looked like we were burning gas. Amazing. I’d really like to see what is out there now for burning bunker C/#6. got to be some interesting things going on.
