Six on, six off "As close to slavery as we have..."

[quote=tengineer;17915]Mates and asst. engineers would be a start.
Tengineer[/quote]

Mates and engineers are not a way to address fatigue, they are the victims of the system that allows it.

The statement was made that [I]“there are other ways to address the fatigue problem.”[/I] I am still waiting to read what those “ways” might be.

[QUOTE=Steamer;17947]Mates and engineers are not a way to address fatigue, they are the victims of the system that allows it.

The statement was made that [I]“there are other ways to address the fatigue problem.”[/I] I am still waiting to read what those “ways” might be.[/QUOTE]

Egyptian cotton sheets, goose down pillows, and sleep. 7-8 hours of that and a decent breakfast is all anyone needs.

[QUOTE=anchorman;17950]Egyptian cotton sheets, goose down pillows, and sleep. 7-8 hours of that and a decent breakfast is all anyone needs.[/QUOTE]

Don’t forget the memory foam…

Then it’s not 6 and 6 is it?

Am still waiting to hear about those “other ways” to remedy a sleep deficit and the risk it creates.

[QUOTE=Steamer;17952]Then it’s not 6 and 6 is it?

Am still waiting to hear about those “other ways” to remedy a sleep deficit and the risk it creates.[/QUOTE]

Of course it’s not 6 and 6 - that would be the same way and the proven killer that tengineer alluded to. I thought you were looking for “other ways”

Please go back and read post #13. That post stated that 6 and 6 is bad, but there are "other ways’ to deal with the fatigue created by that system.

The poster implies that he has knowledge of “other ways” to counter the sleep deficit and the dangerous fatigue created by standing 6 and 6 watches so I would like him to tell us just what those “other ways” are. I am sure there are many sleep researchers and safety managers who would love to know as well.

what ever came out of the data and conclusions from the USCG CEM study??

also have read favorable opinions for “8on/8off”…don’t know how that would interact with circadian rhythms??

I suspect that like every fatigue study performed since the Second World War, the conclusions did not fit with industry desires and they were quietly shelved until the next fatigue related disaster.

Until a ship with a sleeping watchstander rams a senator’s beachhouse or an aircraft with a fatigue numbed pilot crashes into a congress critter’s home, nothing will change. It hasn’t in the 65 years or so they have been “studying” the problem.

Melatonin. Non-narcotic, OTC, dirt cheap and natural. OK on 719k. Wash a couple down with a cup of coffee and strait to REM…

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

If unions meant anything at all 6 and 6, or anything like it, would have been gone a long time ago. Those are the issues I want help standing up for, not just the nickels and dimes, important though those are.

[QUOTE=Steamer;17972]I suspect that like every fatigue study performed since the Second World War, the conclusions did not fit with industry desires and they were quietly shelved until the next fatigue related disaster.

Until a ship with a sleeping watchstander rams a senator’s beachhouse or an aircraft with a fatigue numbed pilot crashes into a congress critter’s home, nothing will change. It hasn’t in the 65 years or so they have been “studying” the problem.[/QUOTE]

EXCELLENT, Steamer
I stood 6 and 6 watches due to a watch engineer becoming sick, after several days I found myself making mistakes both in judgement and thus performance. Fortunately none were show stoppers, but what would happen if this 6 and 6 continued on and on and on?
Popping pills is not the answer, not that I did it, well in a way I did, I consumed way too much coffee.
12 and 12 doesn’t work well also but better than 6 and 6.
6 and 6 will eventually lead to a show stopper.

IMO 4/4/8/8 is a little better than 6/6/6/6 or 12/12.

It never gets addressed because it never gets brought up. I’ve been through many uscg, abs,dnv,etc inspections and have never seen a crew member be asked if he was tired and I’ve never seen any auditor give more than a cursory glance at an stcw watch log.

And, even when we have accidents here in the states, the topic is never brought up unless gross violations are found. For example, I sat through most of the deepwater horizon hearings and I don’t remember the fact that the crew working a 12/12 schedule (with certain supervisors working well more than 12) ever being questioned.

That said 12/12 on a modu is not a problem (except on drill day!!) but near costal navigation and cargo watches lasting 12hrs can be a brute and “all hands” evolutions (e.g. linehandling) directly after a 12hour watch is painful. But 6/6 is no fun under any condition.

[QUOTE=john;104032]It never gets addressed because it never gets brought up. I’ve been through many uscg, abs,dnv,etc inspections and have never seen a crew member be asked if he was tired and I’ve never seen any auditor give more than a cursory glance at an stcw watch log.

And, even when we have accidents here in the states, the topic is never brought up unless gross violations are found. For example, I sat through most of the deepwater horizon hearings and I don’t remember the fact that the crew working a 12/12 schedule (with certain supervisors working well more than 12) ever being questioned.

That said 12/12 on a modu is not a problem (except on drill day!!) but near costal navigation and cargo watches lasting 12hrs can be a brute and “all hands” evolutions (e.g. linehandling) directly after a 12hour watch is painful. But 6/6 is no fun under any condition.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about 12/12 not being a problem on a MODU. I have seen some pretty beat mechanics and engineers on those MODUs. Especially the older ones which are undermanned in my opinion for the level of maintenance required. I have mentioned this in past audits but it doesn’t get far.

[QUOTE=DeckApe;104026]IMO 4/4/8/8 is a little better than 6/6/6/6 or 12/12.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I have been doing the 4/4/8/8 for almost 2 years now and I feel mush more rested when I go on watch. Doing 6/6 after a few days I felt like a zombie. With 6/6 you are lucky to get 5 solid hours of sleep a watch with the 4/4/8/8 you should be able to get at least 7 plus the cat nap during the 4 hours off watch.

[QUOTE=Bayrunner;104073]I disagree. I have been doing the 4/4/8/8 for almost 2 years now and I feel mush more rested when I go on watch. Doing 6/6 after a few days I felt like a zombie. With 6/6 you are lucky to get 5 solid hours of sleep a watch with the 4/4/8/8 you should be able to get at least 7 plus the cat nap during the 4 hours off watch.[/QUOTE]

I guess this is why a lot of ATBs and other boats are 28/28 with their 6/6 watches, where ships are 90+/90+ with their 4/4/8/8. The more you get to sleep the longer you can work.

6&6 is horrible, I much prefer 12/12, now to go from 31/11 to equal time…

I like working 12 hours a day. The extra pay is worth it and I can manage to stay up without coffee or energy drinks. People who don’t like 12 hours of work a day should find a 8 hour a day boat, there are plenty of them out there. When my tug goes on a voyage over 600 miles we go to 3 watches and we are all bored out of our minds with the extra time off. From what I have seen tugboat companies that travel 600+ miles all the time keep a 3 watch system all the time and the day rate is much lower because of less hours worked. I often work on the side for 14-18 hours per day and I don’t mind it, im not a slave, I can choose how much I want to work. They way I look at it, if im stuck on the boat, I might as well get paid for as much time as I can. Non stop 6/6 can get brutal if your non stop but I find that every few days we get a chance to anchor and get a few extra hours of sleep. I have heard positive things about working 7/7/5/5 and 4/4/8/8 but haven’t tried it myself.

Another vote for 8/8/4/4… Fatigue is a non factor. No one on here drinks coffee or smoke…no grouchy assholes either. Why? Because they get a large block of sleep daily.
I refuse to work 6/6 or 12/12. Did it for many many years.

Nobody on your boat drinks coffee? I am at a loss for words.