I also said.
That sorta implies poor people should be free to use whatever we have used based on their own circumstances and their own willingness to prosper.
Are you confused or just a bully afraid of the words of a master of square rigged sail?
I see you want more windmills to tilt at, ombugge. Go for it.
I am just going to reiterate what I find objectionable with this bunch and their project
1, first and foremost, they are seeking investment in what they claim will be a for profit enterprise but where all evidence points to zero chance of ever make any profits on the operation. they should be structured as a not for profit operation and be seeking donations from others instead.
2. I object to their extremely weak business plan with gaping lapses such omitting paying for a professional crew which they will be required to carry even if not required to be a SOLAS vessel.
3. I object to their expecting a professional crew to not work for any form of paid wages. Even if at low developing world level pay.
4. I object to any corners they a likely cutting with the construction of their ship especially where the safety of the crew and others who may be aboard are concerned.
otherwise, I too wish I could be building a 150’ trading schooner using other people’s money. Nice work if you can get it.
I think they’ll do a good job building the boat. For them, wooden boatbuilding is not just a job, it’s their religion.
From their point of view, If the business is not successful, that doesn’t matter so much as long as they have left the legacy of a nice wooden boat that will last for years.
Seagoing wages are so ridiculously low for most of the sailors in the World, most commercial ship crews competing with us are working for almost nothing. These guys are no competition to us.
@c.captain , I agree with you, all professional sailors should be well paid at about 50% more than current American wages. You and I can wish for that, but it’s not reality.
This is a unique situation. The value of preserving wooden sailing vessel construction in North America, and the value of sail training outweigh the wage issue.
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When I was a boy I mowed my grandparents lawns for a glass of lemonade. I was unlucky on two counts. One they had a grass tennis court plus extensive lawns. Two, they had an eighteen inch cut cast iron hand mower and canvas catcher and a wooden wheelbarrow holding a third of a cubic yard to wheel away the clippings.
The brand name of the mower, Cleveland was forever remembered in a 10 year olds brain and the wheelbarrow, from a sailing scow, was a handful empty.
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I’m not trying to wind anyone up, but the Jones Act only prevents that carriage of passengers and cargo between US ports on foreign built or foreign flag vessels.
The Jones Act does not apply to purely sail training vessels. This vessel could be bought and reflagged US as a sail training vessel. In fact, many US sail training vessels were foreign built.
The Coast Guard Cutter EAGLE was built in Germany as Hitler’s yacht (yes it’s exempt from the Jones Act as a US Government vessel). The ELLISA was built in Scotland in 1877 (yes she hasn’t sailed since 2011). BOUNTY was built in Canada (yes, we all know what happened to her). CORWITH CRAMER was built in Spain in 1987 (yes, she is technically a Subchapter R research vessel). ROBERT SEAMENS was by built at Martinac in Tacoma in 2001 (another research vessel). WESTWARD was built in Germany in 1961 (another research vessel). ROGER WILLIAMS was built in Rhode Island. I cannot think of the name of big wooden Portuguese fishing schooner ( edit, I think it’s ERNESTINA) turned to sail training, but last I heard she was in Philly.
PICTON CASTLE has been mentioned earlier. She was built as a trawler in the UK. She was converted to sail training in Lunenburg. Although American owned, she is based in Lunenburg and registered as a yacht in the Cook Islands. She has been doing ‘round the world sail training cruises for probably 30 years. She produces some exceptional commercial Mariners.
@ombugge , when the Germans abandoned Bergen during WWII, the PICTON CASTLE was the first Allied ship to arrive in Bergen the next day, where she was known as The Liberator of Norway.
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She was a Norwegian coaster from 1955 - 93 under several owners:
https://www.sjohistorie.no/en/skip/889320/
Under US V.I. register:
PS> I have never heard of “The Liberator of Norway”.
@Klaveness this is more up your street. Do you have any knowledge of this??
Nothing mentioned of “Liberator of Norway” on her website either:
PICTON CASTLE -
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We get it, you’re obsessed with her. But considering SailCargo was incorporated in 2014, four years prior to Greta entering the world stage, you’ll need to find someone else to blame for this one.
I tried my damn hardest to read the entire thread but it was challenging.
I’m not sure if enyone else has brought it up, but if we are going back to Sails why not copy Cutty Sark - Wikipedia the pinnacle of a millennium of refinement? Why invent the wheel again?
PICTON CASTLE is referred to as “The Liberator of Norway” in its Wikipedia entry.
The PEKING from the Flying P Line of Hamburg is quite a ship too, and much bigger that CUTTY SARK. I believe she’s the one the Irving Johnson was aboard when he made his film of rounding Cape Horn in the 1930’s. I’ve been aboard PEKING at South Street Seaport. South Street was never able to raise enough money for preservation, much less restoration. I believe that PEKING was given back to Germany for restoration. The last I heard she was scheduled to go back on a heavy lift ship. I imagine the restoration is well underway by now.
One of PEKING’s sister ships is now a Russian sail training ship.
The CALCLUTHA could probably be brought back to life from retirement in SF.
The USCGC Eagle was originally the Horst Wessel. She was the second of 3 of to be built for the German navy’s sail training fleet. After the war the ships were seized as war reparations with the US getting the Horst Wessel. That the ship was seized by the government means she could have been Jones Act qualified if the Coast Guard Academy chose not to keep her.
It was not Hitler’s yacht.
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I’m fairly sure the Jones Act does apply to US sailing vessels. I think it comes down to what you mean by “purely sailing training vessels”.
Eagle - Uninspected (military, obviously) and does not carry passengers or cargo for hire
Elissa - Uninspected and does not carry passengers or cargo for hire. I believe people that go out on her very few day sails donate to the museum and eventually are invited out “for free”. As they do not charge, per se, they are not violating the Jones Act.
Bounty - Only certified as a moored attraction vessel, thus not transporting passengers/cargo for hire.
Corwith Cramer and Westward are subchapter R, and thus not carrying passengers or cargo for hire, and not violating the Jones Act. I’m a little unclear on the application for these two vessels.
Robert Seamans is US built and flagged, so no conflict there.
Ernestina was built in the US.
Picton Castle is foreign built (Wales) and flagged and only operates in the US during festivals or in transit - see below.
Foreign training ships participating in various “tall ship races” and festivals in the US are typically given a spot inspection by the CG upon their first port of call and the entity organizing the festival applies for a Jones Act waiver for the foreign vessels participating, solely to apply for the duration of the event. Usually a few weeks. This allows foreign ships to participate in a few ports of call, loading or discharging trainees, and then to continue onto their business elsewhere.
That’s not the whole story, but I worked on those kinds of ships for a while and we found no special treatment with the CG.
Basically, the Jones Act restricts the carriage of freight or passengers for hire between US ports.
Yes, it applies to some other vessels too. Fishing vessels don’t carry freight or passengers, but if over 5 net tons they must be US built. Tugboats don’t carry freight or passengers, but foreign tugs cannot tow barges carrying freight between US ports, nor can they dock ships in US ports.
There are a variety of loopholes and exceptions to the Jones Act, and even waivers. For example: Foreign built vessels over 200 GRT that carry 12 or less passengers, can be permitted. There is also a small foreign built charter yacht exception. I think it’s for 6 or fewer passengers, but I don’t recall the details.
The Jones Act does not apply to research vessels, including research vessels that also do sail training. I don’t see why the Jones Act would apply to pure sail training vessels, unless they also carry freight or passengers for hire. But, I really don’t recall, and I’m not sure what may have changed in the last decade or two.
What the Jones Act does or doesn’t apply to in the “gray areas” is subject to shifting interpretations.
It’s people like you that are the reason we’re in the mess we’re in today. Stop denying the facts about reality so we can do something about it already.
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What on earth are you talking about?
That’s exactly how vessel’s like this afford to operate. They’re called “schooner bums” for a reason.
Paying ‘trainees’ aren’t legally ‘passengers’.
Correct. if they are called “trainees”, or some other innovative name, they can pay for passage but not be counted as passengers. (Nothing new there)
But they would need to be certified as a sail training vessel to call them trainees. I don’t know if that is easier that to be certified as a passenger vessel.