Rules appeal?

As anyone heard of having any luck with a question with regard to appealing a challenge verdict? If so what are the tactics to submit a solid case? Have a 1600t masters test in the balance.
Thanks

What was the question? Answers?

I have heard that it is more effective use of time to resit the module rather than challenge.

If one could resit without having to take all six modules again that would be nice, but this question was based on ROTR “risk”.

Q: both intl/inland which statement is true concerning risk of collision?
A. Risk would exist if two vessels pass within 1 ml
B. stand on vessel must keep out of way of other vessels.
C. Bogus answer
D. Bogus answer

I feel both these answers are correct but the q does not mention the fact a “giveaway” vessel is not taking appropriate action to avoid collision, thus for the give way vessel to assume “risk” and then take immediate action to keep clear. I believe this Q is simple to learn by the definition of repetitive Text book learning techniques, but to put into theory, the Q only ask what is true concerning “risk”. I believe there is risk anytime two boats pass. We take that risk everyday we leave port.

I most likely will sit again but it’s worth it to try and appeal this Q: so that in the future the USCG can evolve with these Q’s Call me stubborn…

I would think its a classic case of pick the ‘most right’ answer. I myself would pick ‘B’. If you set up the example of two vessels passing within 1 mile of each other on inland waters, they sound the appropriate signal, and pass with no risk. When passing signals are made and understood, that should negate the risk of doubt/collision.

However, if you do lose your challenge, you only have to take the ROR again, not the 6 modules. You would have to take all 6 again if you let something like 60 or 90 days pass without re testing.

Whilst I can see your argument, it does not really fly with Inland rules. Vessels are often much closer and in fact are not required to exchange signals until 1/2 mile. I would infer that a risk is not considered to exist over that distance. Which only leaves B as a viable answer.

My initial thought is B.

A. Is NOT always absolutely true. Simply because two vessels are within one mile does not constitute a risk.

Vessels are not even required to sound signals unless the 1/2,mile threshold is met.

I remember when I took my first set of exams after the academy. They told us that you had to challenge a question before turning in your test. Also it was suggested that is would be quicker to just retake the test then to wait for a verdict.

[QUOTE=CaptAndrew;56674]Whilst I can see your argument, it does not really fly with Inland rules. Vessels are often much closer and in fact are not required to exchange signals until 1/2 mile. I would infer that a risk is not considered to exist over that distance. Which only leaves B as a viable answer.[/QUOTE]

Hope all is well Andrew.

I almost wrote 1/2 mile, but didn’t want to deviate from the answer bank for my argument.

This seems like the best option but a typical poorly worded question. I guess they figure wording it correctly would make the test too easy. The answer would make the most sense if worded something like “if give way vessel does not yield, stand on vessel must keep out of way of other vessel.” But again, that would make the correct answer much too obvious for the coast guard.

Sorry bro it is no brainer, A is the only viable answer. B is a Bogus answer as well. Why would a stand-on vessel need to keep clear of other vessels? Sorry, in my opinion your challenge will go nowhere, but it might be worth a shot.

  1. If the give way vessel does not yield and there is an accident the stand on vessel is partly at fault for not getting the f out of the way.

  2. Where in the rules does it say that within one mile equals risk of collision? If it was within half a mile I could see it, under inland rules. Since they think anyone within 1/2 a mile needs to make passing arrangements then they could infer that means there is risk of collision. Otherwise, I would go with B.

[QUOTE=waterwrkpr;56667]If one could resit without having to take all six modules again that would be nice, but this question was based on ROTR “risk”.

Q: both intl/inland which statement is true concerning risk of collision?
A. Risk would exist if two vessels pass within 1 ml
B. stand on vessel must keep out of way of other vessels.
C. Bogus answer
D. Bogus answer

I feel both these answers are correct but the q does not mention the fact a “giveaway” vessel is not taking appropriate action to avoid collision, thus for the give way vessel to assume “risk” and then take immediate action to keep clear. I believe this Q is simple to learn by the definition of repetitive Text book learning techniques, but to put into theory, the Q only ask what is true concerning “risk”. I believe there is risk anytime two boats pass. We take that risk everyday we leave port.

I most likely will sit again but it’s worth it to try and appeal this Q: so that in the future the USCG can evolve with these Q’s Call me stubborn…[/QUOTE]

Part of the problem everyone is experiencing is that the question posted above is not the exact wording IMHO. Given the following question from the USCG question bank I think the answer is more obvious.

Question #4379

BOTH INTERNATIONAL & INLAND Which statement is TRUE concerning risk of collision?

A. The stand-on vessel must keep out of the way of the other vessel when risk of collision exists. Only if the giveway vessel is not taking action.B. Risk of collision always exists when two vessels pass within one mile of each other. Not always.
C. Risk of collision always exists when the compass bearing of an approaching vessel changes appreciably. Not always.
D. Risk of collision [I]may[/I] exist when the compass bearing of an approaching vessel is changing appreciably. Rule 7 d. (ii) such risk [I]may[/I] sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.

Correct answer D.

Only 2 questions worded like this in the question bank and the other is not even close to having the same answer choices. If this is not the same question, I feel there is something a miss in the question as it was posted and would need to see the exact wording to form an opinion.

Ea$y money, good point. We are arguing based on the op’s wording, which may not be accurate. Remember though, the posted question bank is no longer 100% accurate so there may be a new question similar to those you posted but worded differently.

[QUOTE=“Ea$y Money”]

Part of the problem everyone is experiencing is that the question posted above is not the exact wording IMHO. Given the following question from the USCG question bank I think the answer is more obvious.

Question #4379

BOTH INTERNATIONAL & INLAND Which statement is TRUE concerning risk of collision?

A. The stand-on vessel must keep out of the way of the other vessel when risk of collision exists. Only if the giveway vessel is not taking action.B. Risk of collision always exists when two vessels pass within one mile of each other. Not always.
C. Risk of collision always exists when the compass bearing of an approaching vessel changes appreciably. Not always.
D. Risk of collision may exist when the compass bearing of an approaching vessel is changing appreciably. Rule 7 d. (ii) such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range

Money. Very true I did not post the last two possible answers, being they were appreciating courses. (changing) I myself tend to agree with D as the answer given an Intl type senario as in a large tanker vessel crossing a smaller faster large private yacht. But again the wording of such Q: is very ambiguous to what they are asking. “risk”. In an inland senario you wouldn’t sound signal till 1/2 mile, and risk is not there, by inland rule standard, but an Intl senario you defiantly would In real world see “risk” within 1 nm.

BTW USCG does not allow you to write question down for a comment or challenge, word for word after you have submitted your answer sheet. And the question number reference is no longer displayed with each either. You still have to challenge weather you feel it would help or not before test grading.

Thanks everyone for your 2 cents on this topic, Its helping me build my case appeal :). I was once told the USCG doesn’t want to see your face in the testing room alot, then why do they make these poorly worded questions?

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;56700]1) If the give way vessel does not yield and there is an accident the stand on vessel is partly at fault for not getting the f out of the way.

  1. Where in the rules does it say that within one mile equals risk of collision? If it was within half a mile I could see it, under inland rules. Since they think anyone within 1/2 a mile needs to make passing arrangements then they could infer that means there is risk of collision. Otherwise, I would go with B.[/QUOTE]

It’s in the wording, if there is a collision both vessels are going to be held liable to some extent, because every effort should be made to avoid collision including “departing” from the rules. What you are overlooking is that the Rules state that the Stand On vessel is REQUIRED to hold course and speed until it becomes apparent that the give way vessel is not taking sufficient action, which is of course a judgment call. Not, conversely that they are required to keep out of the way of other vessels. You have to ask yourself, how does a stand on vessel doing a exactly what a stand on vessel is supposed to do contribute to risk of collision. The only answer that holds a “risk” of collision is answer A.

I think a refresher is in order. When you ‘protest’ a question it has to be on a specific point. If you are protesting a question on a specific point, and the ‘wrong’ issue is NOT what you are protesting then your protest will be not allowed.

[QUOTE=waterwrkpr;56653]As anyone heard of having any luck with a question with regard to appealing a challenge verdict? If so what are the tactics to submit a solid case? Have a 1600t masters test in the balance.
Thanks[/QUOTE]

Too late now. You have to challenge at the end of the exam, when it’s graded. You can’t go home, go on gCaptain, etc. and then go back and challenge.

The above notwithstanding, if your challenge is an obvious fishing trip where you know you failed and you’re just slinging @#$% hoping some of it will stick, you have almost no chance of suceess. If you make a plausible case that the question is wrong, that it is vague, or that there are more than one correct answers AND in doing so you appear to have the knowledge the question was designed to elicit, you have a good chance.

Bonus hint: Saying “lapware says…” or “the Murphy book says…” will do little to help your chances. They use Coast Guard questions and if there is a difference, it’s often because somebody else won an appeal on the question and it was changed from what’s in those guides.

[QUOTE=brjones;56676]I remember when I took my first set of exams after the academy. They told us that you had to challenge a question before turning in your test. Also it was suggested that is would be quicker to just retake the test then to wait for a verdict.[/QUOTE]

Academies are different. This is the trade-off for getting to take your exam at the school, before graduation. It’s not feasible to grade on site over 100 exams and guive the results to the applicant while they wait. If you test at the REC, your exam is graded while you wait and you get a chance to look over the test and see what you got wrong. You can then challenge one or two questions, provided that your score was within one or two of passing. But you can’t leave the exam room, or consult references not available in the exam room. Exam challeneges are faxed or e-mailed to the NMC, and decided immediately, you will usually get an answer the same day.
However, it’s noty likely to be quicker to re-take. While academies don’t get immediate decisions on challenges, they are done within a week. Because the academy applicants don’t yet know if they have passed or failed when they make their challenges, they make a lot of them and they can be at times specious. Their fishing trips are not for the qwuestions they know they got wrong, they are for all the ones they think tyhey could get wrong.

By the way, if you score an 88% on a 50 question rules test, you didn’t fail because you missed a (possibly) bad question. You missed the (possibly) bad question, and five others.

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;56683]…I guess they figure wording it correctly would make the test too easy. The answer would make the most sense if worded something like “if give way vessel does not yield, stand on vessel must keep out of way of other vessel.” But again, that would make the correct answer much too obvious for the coast guard.[/QUOTE]

Our secret is out. We have weekly meetings where we review questions and determine how we can best obfuscate them. It certainly could not be because the NMC only has a staff of two for deck exams (more often than not, one of these jobs is vacant) who have to manage over 12,000 questions, respond to exam challenges, generate on a regular basis over 500 different versions of exam modules using IBM XT/Apple IIc vintage software (while our “RGES” system has been migrated to newer operating systems and database platforms several times, the core of the system was written to run on the Coast Guard’s version of DOS (“CTOS”).