Question for Mr. Cavo re: 46CFR11.422 "Maximum Tonnage" and Tonnage Increments

[QUOTE=Flyer69;89908]Man, you are losing me here, wtf is a fineness ratio???

And as far as averaging your time and tonnage, I am really not getting it. The regs. state so many days over so many tons. If you have enough days on big enough vessels you meet the seatime qualification. If all your time is on these sailboats under 50 GRT, you arent gonna get the big license you want.[/QUOTE]

“Fineness ratio” is 1 of the ways they hose yachties; std. GRT calculation is halved, b/c yachts, esp. sailboats, are so pointy or “fine.”

It’s really hard to get more tonnage if you only sail as a captain & only on yachts, but all my time is not in sailboats under 50GRT; my 1st license was Mate 200GRT/500GT NC from crewing on a square rigger. But if the checklist is correct, I’m gonna end up with all different tonnages for mate & master, all depending on route/scope & may end up DOWNGRADED in tonnage on a license I’ve held for 10 years; cr*p.

[QUOTE=Flyer69;89912]Are you referring to the 200GRT as opposed to the 500 GRT?[/QUOTE]

Yes; the checklist interpretation is much less straightforward & results in requiring more days on larger vessels for 200GRT than needed for 500GRT. I.e. violates 2 rules of statutory interpretation; add that to the fact that I’ve already been 2x issued 200GRT Master NC(!) & you see how feel this interpretation could be wrong.

[QUOTE=JGB;89917]“Fineness ratio” is 1 of the ways they hose yachties; std. GRT calculation is halved, b/c yachts, esp. sailboats, are so pointy or “fine.”

It’s really hard to get more tonnage if you only sail as a captain & only on yachts, but all my time is not in sailboats under 50GRT; my 1st license was Mate 200GRT/500GT NC from crewing on a square rigger. But if the checklist is correct, I’m gonna end up with all different tonnages for mate & master, all depending on route/scope & may end up DOWNGRADED in tonnage on a license I’ve held for 10 years; cr*p.[/QUOTE]
I am guessing you need to do a little research on what “GRT” actually represents.
And as far as “fineness” goes, that goes with the territory when a vessel is documented and they use simplified admeasurement to determine the GRT. Is it possible one of those sailboats was admeasured wrong and thus the GRT on the document is incorrect?
Try googling, “simplified admeasurement”. Nobody is getting hosed.

You will not be downgraded. You can still have a 200 ton near coastal masters with the 100 ton or 150 ton oceans.

[QUOTE=Flyer69;89921]I am guessing you need to do a little research on what “GRT” actually represents.
And as far as “fineness” goes, that goes with the territory when a vessel is documented and they use simplified admeasurement to determine the GRT. Is it possible one of those sailboats was admeasured wrong and thus the GRT on the document is incorrect?
Try googling, “simplified admeasurement”. Nobody is getting hosed.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your advice, but think I’ve got real good idea of what GRT means, homes; in this case, documented GRT on a sailing yacht will be 1/2, on average, than say a workboat of equal length. That’s just part of our deal, but it makes it hard to get large vessel time if you only sail as a skipper or don’t want to A/B on tallships for $40/day.

Anyway, hopefully Mr. Cavo can put this to rest so I can fig some options.

[QUOTE=Shadow;89924]You will not be downgraded. You can still have a 200 ton near coastal masters with the 100 ton or 150 ton oceans.[/QUOTE]

I hope you are correct, but had just enough sea days on the square rigger to hit Mate 200GRT NC & was never was asked to show ANY add’ll large tonnage when upgrading to (or renewing) Master 200 GRT NC.

But if the rule is once you have it, you keep it, then I’m psyched.

[QUOTE=JGB;89925]Thanks for your advice, but think I’ve got real good idea of what GRT means, homes; in this case, documented GRT on a sailing yacht will be 1/2, on average, than say a workboat of equal length. That’s just part of our deal, but it makes it hard to get large vessel time if you only sail as a skipper or don’t want to A/B on tallships for $40/day.

Anyway, hopefully Mr. Cavo can put this to rest so I can fig some options.[/QUOTE]
Better check your math.

Simplified Measurement System (46 CFR 69, Subpart E)
This system is often utilized for vessels less than 79 feet, and for non-propelled vessels of any length. The gross
tonnage is the multiple of the length, breadth and depth of the vessel, multiplied by an appropriate factor (0.5 for
sailing vessels, 0.67 for non-sailing vessels, or 0.84 for barge-shaped vessels) and divided by 100.

http://www.moorsom.com/download/Guide_To_Tonnage.pdf

[QUOTE=Flyer69;89927]Better check your math.

http://www.moorsom.com/download/Guide_To_Tonnage.pdf[/QUOTE]

Better yet, come join us in St. Bart’s for NYE & you can walk the quai to see pretty quickly the tonnage diff b/w sail & power while made stern-to. ‘Cause none of those guys are < 79’ LOA :wink:

Maybe you had enough time on the square rigger to get the full 200 even if all your time since your mates license was on smaller vessels.It is based on your seatime as a total not seatime since your last upgrade. If you think they may have given you the license by mistake I can see why you may be concerned. But as long as you qualified for it original you can continue to renew it even if you hold other licenses.

[QUOTE=JGB;89929]Better yet, come join us in St. Bart’s for NYE & you can walk the quai to see pretty quickly the tonnage diff b/w sail & power while made stern-to. ‘Cause none of those guys are < 79’ LOA ;)[/QUOTE]
Say Hi to Tommy on Big Ti for me.

Your 50% figure comes from the simplified admeasurement formula. Those yachts tied up in Gustavia were most likely measured under convention tonnage, based on the actual molded volume of the vessel, without any of the exemptions from
historical tonnage measurement systems.
Volume is volume.

[QUOTE=Shadow;89931]Maybe you had enough time on the square rigger to get the full 200 even if all your time since your mates license was on smaller vessels.It is based on your seatime as a total not seatime since your last upgrade. If you think they may have given you the license by mistake I can see why you may be concerned. But as long as you qualified for it original you can continue to renew it even if you hold other licenses.[/QUOTE]

By the checklist interpretation, I think I did not have enough tonnage to make 200GRT NC Master; so hopefully Mr. Cavo will have some input.

You might want to PM him. Good luck on the upgrade.

[QUOTE=“JGB;89933”]

By the checklist interpretation, I think I did not have enough tonnage to make 200GRT NC Master; so hopefully Mr. Cavo will have some input.[/QUOTE]

Why don’t you spell out how much time you have on what tonnage, exactly?

[QUOTE=Shadow;89934]You might want to PM him. Good luck on the upgrade.[/QUOTE]

He may be recusing himself as he’s in the decision chain for possible appeals.

So on going back to the original post, it seems one of the issues here is that you recieved your original Mate 200 from time on tall ships, and actually that qualifying seatime was credited at 1.5 days per day of service.
Now the NMC is telling you that they no longer are recognizing 1.5 days per day of service as you attempt to increase your scope to Oceans.

11.424 says for Master Oceans you need 3 years qualifying service.
Do you have this on appropriate tonnage vessels, now that there is no longer 1.5 for 1 credit?

[QUOTE=Jeffrox;89976]He may be recusing himself as he’s in the decision chain for possible appeals.[/QUOTE]

Wait, he recuses himself from answering questions here? Thought this was a relatively anonymous way of getting questions answered.

[QUOTE=Flyer69;89983]So on going back to the original post, it seems one of the issues here is that you recieved your original Mate 200 from time on tall ships, and actually that qualifying seatime was credited at 1.5 days per day of service.
Now the NMC is telling you that they no longer are recognizing 1.5 days per day of service as you attempt to increase your scope to Oceans.

11.424 says for Master Oceans you need 3 years qualifying service.
Do you have this on appropriate tonnage vessels, now that there is no longer 1.5 for 1 credit?[/QUOTE]

They don’t give 1.5 for yachts < 99 GRT any longer; tall ship time is fine. OK on days: 1080 days+ overall, 540+ beyond boundary lines, etc. Issue is how they define “Maximum Tonnage.”

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;89952]Why don’t you spell out how much time you have on what tonnage, exactly?[/QUOTE]

No way I’m going back thru all those letters, but let’s conservatively assume for argument, 100 8-hr days at 300GT, 20 8-hr days (ROS) at 7200 GT & the rest at <50 GRT.

[QUOTE=JGB;90058]Wait, he recuses himself from answering questions here? Thought this was a relatively anonymous way of getting questions answered.[/QUOTE]

Yes, he recuses himself, he is in no way anonymous about who he is, and what he does… and is a great resource here.

[QUOTE=Flyer69;90066]Yes, he recuses himself, he is in no way anonymous about who he is, and what he does… and is a great resource here.[/QUOTE]

Meant anonymous for me, so not like he’d know who I am were he involved in appeal; would love his input, so will try to PM at some point.