Question about MMC credentials for passenger sailing ships

[QUOTE=cappy208;60602]

Note the tonnage allowed under this section alone. Find the names of the boats you are thinking about. If you can’t locate the info, PM me, so I can look them up ‘tonnage wise’ I know you don’t want to ‘out’ them, and I wouldn’t either.

Sailing School Student means any person who is aboard a sailing school vessel for the purpose of receiving sailing instruction.[/QUOTE]

I was wrong about the tonnage of schooners, the specs I looked at were way off. I guess if it’s under 100 tons, there are no credentials required except for master and mate. Is that correct? That would explain it.

[QUOTE=c.captain;60572]if the vessel is inspected under Subchapter K or T (ie. <100grt) then the master and any watchstanding mates must be licensed and they do not need able seaman on their MMC…all other crew require nothing to the best of my knowledge if the vessel is not SOLAS.

if the vessel if inspected under Subchapter H then you need licensed deck and engineering officers and certified seamen on both deck and in the engineroom.

.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, what is SOLAS?

I believe this is incorrect. Sail training vessels are in a class by themselves. Little to no USCG involvement and little oversight. Little to none hull and machinery inspection and only safety inspection when (if) boarded by the CG. They do not need a COI or even have a cod.

I know that there is some old regulation grandfathering the sailing vessels out of Rockport, Camden and Belfast but do not know of any others.

This is all I could find, I can’t find anyplace in the code where it says what the manning requirements actually are. I interpreted the below statement to mean everyone working on certain ships needs a document except for people working on sailing school vessels, etc. I guess there are no sailing ships in the U.S. that would need to fulfill the requirements of this section, because there are no sailing ships over 100 gross tons. Funny how many of them are 97 tons.

"[LEFT]Section 8701 requires an individual to have a merchant mariner’s document before that individual can be engaged or employed on certain vessels.

Subsection (a) makes this documentation requirement applicable to United States merchant vessels of at least 100 gross tons except for certain inland vessels and barges, fishing or whaling vessels, yachts, and, in certain circumstances, to sailing school vessels or oceanographic research vessels."

[/LEFT]

[QUOTE=cappy208;60642]I believe this is incorrect. Sail training vessels are in a class by themselves. Little to no USCG involvement and little oversight. Little to none hull and machinery inspection and only safety inspection when (if) boarded by the CG. They do not need a COI or even have a cod.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that was my interpretation of Section 8701, subsection A too.

[QUOTE=Flyer69;60634]Come again?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I meant to say “sail training vessels”. They are exempted from the crew documentation requirement.

[QUOTE=MariaW;60641]Thanks, what is SOLAS?[/QUOTE]
A sea-lawyer like yourself doesnt know what SOLAS is?

This is true of most passenger vessels motor or sail in the US except for government run ferries. Even these are tending towards being smaller vessels. I think the Alaska Marine Highways up coming Alaska class ferries will be under 100 tons.

A lot of information on this thread that is completely wrong! Where to start! Sail training vessels are inspected. Sail training vessels have COIs. And some sail training vessels are over 100 tons…

[QUOTE=Flyer69;60651]A sea-lawyer like yourself doesnt know what SOLAS is?[/QUOTE]
I’m not a lawyer.

[QUOTE=PMC;60663]A lot of information on this thread that is completely wrong! Where to start! Sail training vessels are inspected. Sail training vessels have COIs. And some sail training vessels are over 100 tons…[/QUOTE]

But do they require their crew to have a merchant mariner document?

[QUOTE=MariaW;60641]Thanks, what is SOLAS?[/QUOTE]

SOLAS is the International Convention for the Safety of Life At Sea, originally brought about in 1914 subsequent to the sinking of the TITANIC. Like most maritime regulations, reactionary to a catastrophic loss.

The current version/agreement/update is 1980. Numerous certificates are issued to vessels subject to the regulations covering categories such as Construction, Equipment, Radio, etc.

Pretty good overview here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_for_the_Safety_of_Life_at_Sea

Review, inspection and certificates are issued by the Flag State of the Vessel, either directly (such as the US Coast Guard) or by an agent, commonly the Class Society for a subject Vessel.

I said “sea-lawyer”

MariaW-

Let’s do some recap here and separate the fact from fiction.

With a handful of exceptions (public vessels, low capacity, etc), all of the passenger sailing vessels that operate in the United States are USCG inspected vessels. The vast majority, whether owned by a not for profit organization that runs educational programs aboard, or a for profit entity that takes tourists out to watch the sunset, or a combination of the two, are inspected as Subchapter T-Small Passenger Vessels.

By definition (again with some special USCG exceptions) these vessels are less than 100 Gross Registered Tons (Domestic tonnage). One of the reasons that this type of vessel definition exists is that the manning and safety requirements are less comprehensive than those for vessels above this threshold. Thousands of US vessels have been built to meet the magic number, hence the proliferation of large sail and motor vessels that are 99.9 GRT.

Typically, unless underway for more than 12 hours, they will only have a licensed master and a “Senior Deckhand” instead of a licensed mate who is designated as the second in command. When underway for more than 12 hour they will have an alternate crew aboard. When this type of vessel normally operates for more than 12 hours then there will be a licensed mate. The deckhands are not required to have any additional qualifications other than being enrolled in a random drug testing program. Many of these vessels do not operate out of a secure facility and therefore the non-licensed crew do not have TWIC cards.

Additionally, there are Sailing School Vessels, which by definition must be operated by a non-profit organization, be under 500GRT and are inspected under Subchapter R regulations which are similar but slightly different than those of Subchapter T,H, K, etc. A typical SSV under 100GRT might have a licensed Master, Mate and any number of deckhands. Those over 100GRT might have something like licensed Master, 2 licensed Mates, 2 AB’s and 1 OS.

The type of vessel inspection has more to do with the expected participation of the passenger/trainee aboard as related to safety operations as it does to what type of trip the vessel is embarking on although the two are often related. For example the [I]Clearwater[/I] is a Subchapter T vessel that takes students out on educational trips during the day and then often has an evening sail with ticketed passengers. The [I]Lettie G. Howard [/I]which is an SSV offered both Daysails and Overnights but as everyone was a trainee (it’s a technical definition, not an age issue), they were expected to participate in the operation of the vessel and were given safety training as part of the station bill. To make it more confusing, some vessels have dual certification.

In all cases, manning requirements are decided on by the OICMI (Officer In Charge, Marine Inspection) and are vessel specific. The [I]Niagara[/I], a square rigged SSV has vastly different requirements than [I]Clipper City [/I]which is a Subchapter T passenger schooner operating in New York City.

As to landing a position aboard these vessels, any document that you take the time to acquire demonstrates a professional commitment, especially at the lower level where it may not be required. While you might not need it, having it looks good on the resume.

Tall Ships America has its annual conference coming up and there is a grant available for people such as yourself who are interested in working aboard these vessels and have had some initial experience in traditional sail. Here is the link:

http://tallships.wordpress.com/crew-conference-program-2012/MariaW-

(Disclosure I am on the Board of the Organization)

Among the sessions that are being offered is one on career development, including just about every topic discussed in this thread. There will also be a job fair and many organizations are currently hiring.

I hope this helped sort out some of the confusion.

Fair Winds,

Jonathan

Maria.
Sailing vessels are inspected just like every other passenger vessels of the same tonnage, and are crewed just like every other passenger vessels of the same tonnage, Except that the manning will typically be higher to account for sail handling. The actual requirements for crewing depend on the route which they are approved for. What this means is that for a power OR sailing vessel that only does harbor tours (for example) the only license required is the master. When that vessel goes on a voyage over 12 hours the manning and license goes up, and the Mate will also need a license. The only requirement for other crew is to be enrolled in the company’s drug consortium. This is no different to any small passenger vessel. Once the vessel goes past the boundary line then some of the rules move up a notch. Again just like every other vessel. This ‘MAY’ include BST training for all the crew involved in safety of passengers, which really ‘should’ mean everyone but in reality it depends on the COI. As the voyage moves into foreign ports then the vessel ‘MAY’ require SOLAS certification, which brings us up yet again in the requirements, including crew certification. I have operated at least one vessel that required a letter from me to be filed designating a “Senior Deckhand” who acts as watch leader in lieu of a 3rd mate for certain near coastal voyages when passengers are aboard. And I have also served on vessels where the COI allows un-inspected operation for repositioning cruises between ports.

As for the tonnage of sailing vessels. Most of them are under 100GRT, but not all. And as mentioned by others, some, but very few, of them are operating as sail-training vessels.

I have served as master on several commercially operated sailing passenger vessels including on international routes, and believe me they are inspected to the same levels as motor vessels, but in addition they have rig inspections which incidentally USCG don’t understand, and this adds an additional level of complication to the inspections. Ask me how I know!

So there is no hard and fast answer to your questions. It depends on so many factors and your questions are not always well phrased for the easy quick answers that you want.

[I]“Neither are sea-lawyers.” [/I]

Good one … :smiley:

[QUOTE=Flyer69;60685]I said “sea-lawyer”[/QUOTE]
What’s that? Why are you making fun of me? If I’ve offended you somewhere, I’m really sorry about that. The only things I quote are what I read in the regulations which I’ve posted, and some of which I don’t completely understand.

[QUOTE=JKabak;60687]MariaW-

Let’s do some recap here and separate the fact from fiction.
I hope this helped sort out some of the confusion.

Fair Winds,
Jonathan[/QUOTE]

Dear Jonathan, Thank you for taking the time to make this kind and informative post. That was very helpful and cleared up my questions.

[QUOTE=MariaW;60711]What’s that? Why are you making fun of me? If I’ve offended you somewhere, I’m really sorry about that. The only things I quote are what I read in the regulations which I’ve posted, and some of which I don’t completely understand.[/QUOTE]

From about 30 seconds with Google:

“Sea Lawyer: An argumentative, cantankerous or know-it-all sailor. A sea lawyer is adept at using technicalities, half truths, and administrative crap to get out of doing work or anything else he doesn’t want to do, and/or to justify his laziness.”

“a contentious sailor, who habitually argues, questions orders and regulations, etc.”

Although it’s about sea lawyers in the USMC, here’s a good explanation:

http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcasnewriver/Pages/Bewaryof’sealawyers’.aspx