Los angeles city pilots may be a civil service job but dont think the hiring practices are any different than the private organizations.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-adv-port-pilots-snap-story.html
also the port of New York has sandy hook but once under the bridge Moran, Mcallister, and Interport compete for the docking jobs. Im not sure if the Hudson river pilots are part of sandy hook now but I thnk they were also independent at one time.
[QUOTE=lm1883;188585]He didn’t purchase his job, he was buying into a partnership.[/QUOTE]
You are correct but the amount that he had to pay was exactly what the retiring “Partner” Pilot received when he cashed in as he left. So, to me it could be looked at either way. Your “Retirement Package” when retiring from the “Partnership” is whatever you can “Sell” your Share for.
Just to be clear, I was very happy for this Captain to get this position. I not only knew him but I also knew his Father.
[QUOTE=lm1883;188646]That’s the way it works. Pilots are not employees, they are business owners. Providing that service requires a significant amount of capital (provided by the pilots) that goes to purchasing or maintaining property, infrastructure, boats, employees (including wages and retirement plans), etc… Before an owner receives a paycheck all expenses must be provided for. If traffic meets projection the owner does well, if it doesn’t, the cost is eaten. Over the course of a Pilot’s career he/she will contribute a fair share of capital to maintain or improve the business and like any other business owner he wants a return on his investment when he leaves. This is a common practice with partnerships in various industries.
Most Pilot groups have no structured retirement for its members as business in most places make it almost impossible to have a defined retirement benefit and still meet the capital needs to provide service. They are also responsible for their own monthly insurance premiums. FWIW.[/QUOTE]
GEE, I never would have known this, thanks for enlightening me! So, what pilot association have you tried to get into as you sure seem to know a lot about pilots!
[QUOTE=lm1883;188646]Most Pilot groups have no structured retirement for its members as business in most places make it almost impossible to have a defined retirement benefit and still meet the capital needs to provide service. They are also responsible for their own monthly insurance premiums.[/QUOTE]
Are pilots typically union members (MEBA, MMP, etc.)? If so, would they receive a pension through the union? And if so, would the pension be based on a typical captain’s pay rate, or a special pilot pay rate?
MMP for most in the US. But it is a loose association like the govt membership group. Really just in name without associated benefits to my knowledge.
Yea, MMP has a membership group specifically for Harbor Pilots. It’s separate from the other membership groups though so I’m not sure what benefits they get. Like you said probably like the govtmwnt employee membership group. Probably they do their medical and retirement through the Union.
[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;188525]…Or it could simply be the way you asked? Judging by your earlier comments, it’s no surprise no one has told you.
Flies and honey or flies and vinegar?[/QUOTE]
Good call…judge a person completely on posts on an anonymous internet forum.
This was a hit piece by media over much bigger issues at the Port of LA. I know it looks bad. But Im pretty familiar with what happened in LA. (I was asked but declined to be on the hiring committee). My opinion is that the younger Rubino unfortunately was the best candidate. The committee struggled with that fact. The guy already scored the more coveted San Francisco Bar Pilot’s apprentice job and quit it to work with his Dad in LA for less money. I understand his interview and simulator performance was extraordinary. Obviously his Dad helped develop him into the best candidate. And now that he’s lost the LA job, SF scooped him back up.
My point is: There is very little nepotism in Southern Cal. In San Diego, where I work, there are 9 pilots. And I’ve seen another 9 retire over past 20 years. None have ever been related in any remote way and none were childhood friends.
In my experience, most of the organizations are on the up and up as far as ridding the pure nepotism and rating candidates on (mostly) merit. That being said you still better be well liked around the waterfront if you hope to make it in. Social capital is still very much a part of entry. However that goes the same for most any job. There are a few holdout associations that are still stuck in the old ways, however.
Sidenote: Surely the young lad and his father must have realized the optics of the decision to try to work the LA bar as father and son pilots?
Anyone could have seen the accusations of impropriety looming.
[QUOTE=Slick Cam;188893]In my experience, most of the organizations are on the up and up as far as ridding the pure nepotism and rating candidates on (mostly) merit. That being said you still better be well liked around the waterfront if you hope to make it in. Social capital is still very much a part of entry. However that goes the same for most any job. There are a few holdout associations that are still stuck in the old ways, however.
Sidenote: Surely the young lad and his father must have realized the optics of the decision to try to work the LA bar as father and son pilots?
Anyone could have seen the accusations of impropriety looming.[/QUOTE]
Years ago, down in Galveston, I was involved in a high pressure turbine rotor replacement on a Coastal tanker. The lay berth was adjacent to the Pilot station. . . the running joke for whenever we couldn’t immediately locate the Master of the tanker was that he was down on the dock waxing cars. . . Maybe he was. He IS a Houston Pilot now.
Not sure about other places but nepotism is still a thing in the Savannah Pilot organization. http://www.savannahpilots.com/our-team/pilots/
Take a look at this list and you will find more than one of the last names on there and several of the state pilots also have close relatives who are docking pilots with Moran. I know at one time a Federal pilot was trying to start something up in Savannah and he would have to board ships in Brunswick, Jacksonville, or Charleston and ride down to get his trips because the State pilots were guarding their turf. What I’ve always found funny is State pilots who hate having to board a tug/barge and complain the entire trip because it takes longer to get up the channel but will do everything in their power to prevent a state pilot from getting the work.
State Pilots are only getting medical benefits from MM&P. It is difficult to find medical insurance that will cover old men climbing rope ladders in bad weather for a living for a reasonable amount.
Buying into a practice or association is totally normal. Pilot boats, docks, and office facilities near major ports are very expensive.
It isn’t that hard to get a pilot position, you just have to try. You might even have to try hard, it might even take a few years. Most good jobs require a few years of trying hard to attain.
Miami is going to be taking in two deputy pilots this year yet only 6 people showed up for the test. The person who ended up with the high score is probably going to turn the job down. So the persons who got the 2nd and 3rd highest scores are probably going to be offered the job. Many other states have similar things going on as the average age of pilots in the U.S. is pretty high. Apprentice Pilot jobs get posted on GCaptain occasionally, you could try applying to every single one of them for a year, just to see what happens.
If all that sounds too hard, you could try complaining about it on the internet. " Filling out applications and showing up for tests is too hard!" . . . . hmmm, my phone didn’t ring, I guess it doesn’t work like that.
There are a lot of decent paying jobs in this industry including office workers, ships crew, and pilots. None of these jobs are easy, yet all of them are attainable. If you want to work in the office of a shipping company you can do that. If you want to captain of a seagoing ship you can do that. If you want to be a pilot you can do that too. But it won’t come easy. If you want easy go do something else.
[QUOTE=LeakyBrain;189045]State Pilots are only getting medical benefits from MM&P. It is difficult to find medical insurance that will cover old men climbing rope ladders in bad weather for a living for a reasonable amount.
Buying into a practice or association is totally normal. Pilot boats, docks, and office facilities near major ports are very expensive.
It isn’t that hard to get a pilot position, you just have to try. You might even have to try hard, it might even take a few years. Most good jobs require a few years of trying hard to attain.
Miami is going to be taking in two deputy pilots this year yet only 6 people showed up for the test. The person who ended up with the high score is probably going to turn the job down. So the persons who got the 2nd and 3rd highest scores are probably going to be offered the job. Many other states have similar things going on as the average age of pilots in the U.S. is pretty high. Apprentice Pilot jobs get posted on GCaptain occasionally, you could try applying to every single one of them for a year, just to see what happens.
If all that sounds too hard, you could try complaining about it on the internet. " Filling out applications and showing up for tests is too hard!" . . . . hmmm, my phone didn’t ring, I guess it doesn’t work like that.
There are a lot of decent paying jobs in this industry including office workers, ships crew, and pilots. None of these jobs are easy, yet all of them are attainable. If you want to work in the office of a shipping company you can do that. If you want to captain of a seagoing ship you can do that. If you want to be a pilot you can do that too. But it won’t come easy. If you want easy go do something else.[/QUOTE]
I am often asked by the non maritime and non offshore types that I know if we are hiring (energy/marine loss adjusters). I then ask them what skills/experience they could offer. . . . crickets. . . .
Interesting thread. In my current job I sometimes give a thought or two to pilots and pilots’ associations, and to monopolies. Here are a couple of them, in no particular order:
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Are pilots worth their fees? If you think physicians are worth their fees, then pilots probably are too; as has been pointed out, pilots buy into partnerships (as do physicians) which fund significant infrastructure/overhead, they serve a lengthy residency (sailing deep sea, on ATBs or as tug masters or some combination of these), and there are boards (USCG exams with detailed local knowledge). Those fees, by the way, are between $250k and $500k/yr. depending on (Gulf Coast) port, according to scuttlebutt (so, FWIW). But again, that’s gross, and I imagine the take-home is quite a bit less. Maybe not even better than a DPO on a drilling rig a couple of years ago.
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The best pilots I’ve worked with are phenomenal – giving orders (often across a language barrier) to a helmsman and two or three tugs in high traffic environments and sometimes lousy weather and putting a ship on a dock safely and efficiently. A few others … well, we adjust our risk assessment upward when we see them pop-up on an order and hope the evolution will be delayed so the other guy or gal will have to deal with it.
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I think the Florida statute actually has it right – economies of scale and other efficiencies do come into play for this sort of service that do in fact justify monopolies. Likewise for certain harbor tug companies mentioned earlier; I’ve tried to imagine what it would be like to have three or four different companies dispatching tugs for 50 ship movements a day – subbing boats when one is out of service or a pilot decides he needs an extra or a z-drive rather than a conventional or … it doesn’t seem like it would be very efficient. Or necessarily cheaper. In fact, I’m curious how it works in large ports with multiple companies providing harbor tugs (anyone?).
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It’s not true that anyone can be a pilot. Anyone with the appropriate qualifications and licenses who also is [I]under a certain age[/I] can be a pilot. It’s positively freeing to not be in the running – I know some guys who spend a lot more time worrying about impressing the pilots, in hopes they can one day join the club, than is healthy or productive.
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Nepotism takes many forms. It can be almost medieval (the first son gets the title and estate, the second son goes to the church, the third son is put in the service of a neighboring ruler, the daughter makes a dynastic marriage …). While the pilots’ associations I have first-hand knowledge of prohibit simultaneous employment of closely related (siblings, parents/children) people, a look at the roster of pilots in associations up and down a given coast will show that some surnames are suspiciously popular. And then there are the guys waiting for their dads to retire …
[QUOTE=Starboard Ten;188889]This was a hit piece by media over much bigger issues at the Port of LA. I know it looks bad. But Im pretty familiar with what happened in LA. (I was asked but declined to be on the hiring committee). My opinion is that the younger Rubino unfortunately was the best candidate. The committee struggled with that fact. The guy already scored the more coveted San Francisco Bar Pilot’s apprentice job and quit it to work with his Dad in LA for less money. I understand his interview and simulator performance was extraordinary. Obviously his Dad helped develop him into the best candidate. And now that he’s lost the LA job, SF scooped him back up.
My point is: There is very little nepotism in Southern Cal. In San Diego, where I work, there are 9 pilots. And I’ve seen another 9 retire over past 20 years. None have ever been related in any remote way and none were childhood friends.[/QUOTE]
I understand your point and I took this article with a grain of salt but the story is still compelling. Sounds like the younger Rubino got a raw deal. The most interesting part of the article was the fact that a 71 year old person was applying for the job. I assume that person was already a pilot in the port, perhaps at Jacobsen?
This also brings up some interesting questions about pilot hiring criteria. Is sea time as master more important than how the candidate actually performs in the simulator? I know pilot associations have developed written and simulator tests to level the playing field and avoid the type of criticism in this very article. It would appear that in this case that the very rules designed to create an even playing field backfired and cost the association the best qualified candidate.
From my admiralty law studies, I recall 2 interesting facts about state pilotage in the USA:
- A state licensed pilot’s primary responsibility, is not to the ship that is paying the pilotage fees. Their main responsibility is to the port and to the local community.
- In U.S. ports, the pilot is not serving in an advisory capacity, he or she has the authority to direct and control the movement of the vessel (except that if the Master legitimately believes that the pilot is manifestly incompetent or intoxicated, or if the pilot’s actions are placing his ship in imminent danger, the Master is justified in displacing the pilot) The question of state pilot authority has been decided and upheld in both state and federal courts on more than one occasion.
[QUOTE=fullbell;189494]From my admiralty law studies, I recall 2 interesting facts about state pilotage in the USA:
- A state licensed pilot’s primary responsibility, is not to the ship that is paying the pilotage fees. Their main responsibility is to the port and to the local community.
- In U.S. ports, the pilot is not serving in an advisory capacity, he or she has the authority to direct and control the movement of the vessel (except that if the Master legitimately believes that the pilot is manifestly incompetent or intoxicated, or if the pilot’s actions are placing his ship in imminent danger, the Master is justified in displacing the pilot) The question of state pilot authority has been decided and upheld in both state and federal courts on more than one occasion.[/QUOTE]
As far as I know the Master NEVER relinquish command to the Pilot. He DOES relinquish control for practical reasons though.
I have once had to take back actual control from an inexperienced pilot that had trained on big ships and did not understand that a small ship with relatively high power was handling different from a 50000 DWT tanker.