FWIW; used ICE cars are a known hazard because of possible shorts in the electrical system. According to a charterer the risk was highest for the first 4 hours after loading after which the battery would be dead.
Number of EVâs carried aboard now reported to be closer to 500 than 25 as previously disclosed.
The coastguard said on its website Thursday the cause of the fire was unknown, but an emergency responder is heard in a recording released by Dutch broadcaster RTL saying âthe fire started in the battery of an electric carâ.
This article in the Norwegian magazin Motor (Dec. 2021) come to the same conclusion:
Maybe it is something special with Teslas, or with drivers in California?
BTW; Tesla EVs doesnât appear to burn any more than other EVs in other parts of the world
Regardless of how they start, the issue with developed lithium battery fires is two-fold:
They are essentially impossible to put out. The fuel and oxidizer involved in the reaction are tightly mixed in much the same way as gunpowder or solid rocket fuel. Thus there is no fire triangle to break, and neither is there a practical way to remove enough heat to stop the reaction. Once going, all the kingâs horses and all the kingâs men can do nothing to stop a thermal runaway. The fire can only be contained.
This is compounded by the fact that high voltage batteries can cause the electrolytic breakdown of water into gaseous hydrogen and oxygen. For an example of the predictable consequences, look no further than the ferry that exploded in Norway after firefighting water flooded the battery room. Not only does this apply to fighting battery fires, but also to fighting conventional fires adjacent to EV batteries.
The sum of this is a fire that can neither be suppressed with CO2 systems nor contained by applying seawater. Inasmuch as EVs become a significant fraction of the load on ROROs, this necessitates a radically different fire suppression strategy. I can imagine a couple of approaches that could be integrated into existing ship design without the need for a radically new approach. You could for example have special fire cells for EVs with air gaps to adjacent cells, permanently plumbed boundary cooling systems, etcâŠ
6 Likes
Article in a Scottish paper last month:
Since it is proven that EVs are less likely to burst into flames than ICE vehicles, but more of a problem if they are set on fire by other vehicles on a ferry, Ro/Ro, or in a parking lot, it appera that ICEs are the source of the problem.
It would make sense to keep EVs and ICEs separed in such situations to reduce the risk of âunextinguishable firesâ caused by unsafe ICEs.
Of course the problem will get less when EVs become the majority type of vehicls on the road and only a few veteran ICEs exists.
PS> Looking at the number of people that gets killed by cars every year, it would make even more sense to ban cars altogether.
Now this is the best thinking Iâve head on this subject in this entire thread. Because itâs based on statistical analysis and not conjecture.
There is very little actual analysis about how the fires actually start. From the little Iâve read it comes down to shoddy manufacturing, and also wear and tear of components in the cells. So right away it strikes me that cells should be manufactured so that it is easy to test for wiring faults and component breakdowns in the cells via the carâs computer. If you want to go on a ferry you would have to have the batteries checked within X period of time by a private company.
As to putting the fire out: below is a link about a way to extinguish a LI-on fire using only water. It is a special technique, and experimental. Not something that a boat crew can do now. But if it proves viable than it wouldnât be impossible to design EV cars with the plumbing in place to hook up a hose to extinguish them, if a vehicle is stored aboard ship.
Iâm just not convinced that extinguishing an EV fire is impossible. Itâs impractical now because we havenât had to think about doing it for very long. The problem reminds of auto window glass. There was a time when an the auto wreck didnât kill you. It was the old sheet glass they used in the windshield that cut you to ribbons that killed you. An insuperable problemâuntil some clever team developed safety glass. Problem solved.
Ferries have means of extinguishing an ICE fire if caught early.
If there is a thermal runaway on an EV most ferries have no means of extinguishing it.
1 Like
So if the ICE fires are put out early enough the EVs donât catch fire, Problem solved.
Do you have a source for that? Iâve dug around a bit without finding anything conclusive, although there are some suggestive data points.
I had a read through the original report, and there is no mention of either electrolysis or hydrogen at any point:
The Oslo FD bought water injection equipment and training at great expense a few years ago. IIRC it was a fancier system than the one discussed by the Swedes, designed to cut into the battery from underneath, so you didnât have to open the car. They promptly decided that the method was unsafe, and Norwegian firefighters have left all EV fires to burn out since. This includes at least one parking garage that burned for days (where the seat of the fire was in an old diesel car).
I donât know whether this decision was due to the danger of hydrogen formation, but in any case it is absolutely not a solution to add water to an energized electrical system, especially in a confined space. Doing so will result in an explosion. There are a lot of references to using water for EV firefighting (example), and I donât really get why nobody is talking about electrolysis.
Iâm not saying that putting out li-ion battery fires is impossible, but it is certainly difficult, and the technology isnât there. Meanwhile the problem is arriving at speed, and solutions are needed right now. That is why I believe that safe and effective containment strategies are needed.
Aside from the silly notion that EVs donât pose a fire hazard on their own, the experts do agree that early intervention is the way to prevent battery fires. From the Legislative Assessment for Safety Hazard of Fire and Innovations in Ro-ro ship Environment:
1 Like
EVs can have spontaneous thermal runaways for a number of reasons. No involvement of ICE necessary.
An EV that spontaneously combusts is a lot more difficult to deal with than an ICE that spontaneously combusts.
Yes that is what I said; âSo if the ICE fires are put out early enough the EVs (that is parked around the burning car) donât catch fire, Problem solvedâ
In most cases of fires on board PCTCs the fire have started in ICEs and spread to EVs:
The problem with putting out fires in EVs is widely aknowledged, but that the EVs are inevitably the cause of fires on PCTCs (or parkinglots) are not.
You may remember the fire in a parkinghouse at Forus a few years ago?
In that case the outcry was immediatly that the fire was caused by an EV (as always)
It showed up not to be true:
Source: Brann i parkeringshus pĂ„ Sola â NRK Rogaland â Lokale nyheter, TV og radio
Do you ever read the posts that you respond to?
For some reason youâre pretending that EVs are inherently safe. I donât see what this adds to the discussion, aside from a political subplot of green vs black energy or whatever.
Who ever said that?
Iâm done 
Itâs a shame, because there is a troubling trend going on, and interesting (perhaps even productive) discussion to be had.
2 Likes
@Klaveness Keep going and never give up. You have got a point and i like Your research gift/passion and investigative instinct. We all know Ombugge teasing style. 
1 Like
Donât have EVâs on board, problem solved.
Let the countries who want them, dig up their own land and pollute their own environment producing the chemicals required, then take care of the toxic depleted batteries.
4 Likes
Hydrogen powered cars.
And that wont be from tanks of liquid hydrogen it will be sold state stored
Once thats mainstream, EVâs are going to a land fill or fed into power stations as a source of heat.
this forum has always impressed me with the knowledge of the people.
could possible some type of wrapping of each EV after loading be possible within the existing cargo areas to eliminate the spread, confining the fire to the one vehicle?
its just my personal experience as i have seen them on the highway on fire when i lived in northern california, about 30 miles from where they were made.
ombugge
July 28 |
- | - |
This article in the Norwegian magazin Motor (Dec. 2021) come to the same conclusion:
Fossilbiler tar oftere fyr enn elbiler
Hvert Är begynner hundrevis av biler Ä brenne i Norge. Biler som gÄr pÄ bensin og diesel, brenner fire til fem ganger sÄ ofte som elbiler.
Bruce1:
Tesla EVâs have been burning to the ground on California highways for years.
Maybe it is something special with Teslas, or with drivers in California?
BTW; Tesla EVs doesnât appear to burn any more than other EVs in other parts of the world
The Norwegian ferry company Havila Kystruten has a ban on EVs because they think it is not safe to carry them.